Keswick to Penrith update

[Captain Kernow]

My old friend Cedric Martindale has sent me an update on his on-going endeavours to reopen the Keswick - Penrith line. Apparently the local MP is now being supportive, and is trying to 'open doors' within Eden District Council, who have been ambivilent at best about the reopening, despite the 'number of boxes that this scheme ticks' in terms of 'sustainable transport' and improving local transport links in that part of the Lake District.

 

More info on the website here - http://www.keswickrailway.com/

 

This is a worthy scheme and Cedric is a time-served railwayman of great experience and integrity.

 

[10800]

Interesting that it's proposed as a modern line to reintegrate with the national network rather than a heritage railway.

[The Stationmaster]

My old friend Cedric Martindale has sent me an update on his on-going endeavours to reopen the Keswick - Penrith line. Apparently the local MP is now being supportive, and is trying to 'open doors' within Eden District Council, who have been ambivilent at best about the reopening, despite the 'number of boxes that this scheme ticks' in terms of 'sustainable transport' and improving local transport links in that part of the Lake District.

 

More info on the website here - http://www.keswickrailway.com/

 

This is a worthy scheme and Cedric is a time-served railwayman of great experience and integrity.

 

The only way it stands of being a success is the way the some of the business case analysis was assessed on the back of the various timetable options (which aren't many) - on the basis of a generally 90mph linespeed with cwr throughout.  Although this would not be entirely the case as the curvature where the deviation (from the original route) will have to be constructed will force a lower linespeed for part of the route and some other physical constraints will result in lower speeds in a few odd spots over short stretches.

 

I don't know what the situation is know but the Council were at one stage positively hostile having their eye on parts of the route for further improvements to the adjacent main road.

[Ravenser]

Keswick was one of the major "avoidable losses" of the early 1970s - the benefits of having good rail /public transport access to the northern part of the Lake District national park must be substantial .

 

Hope they are successful - the big thing this scheme has against it is that it's in England . I'm open to correction but I believe no new stations or lines have opened to passengers in England (other than HS1 and DLR extensions) since at least 2000 whereas plenty have opened or are under construction in Wales and Scotland (Or is Corby the single exception?)

 

I've often wondered if it might make sense to add a connection from Penrith to the Settle & Carlisle - perhaps it would be possible to reinstate the ex NER line with a connection just north of Appleby for Keswick trains to terminate in Appleby station. However when opening anything in England is so rare, the first priority is Keswick itself, rather than bolt-ons

['CHARD]

 I'm open to correction but I believe no new stations or lines have opened to passengers in England (other than HS1 and DLR extensions) since at least 2000 whereas plenty have opened or are under construction in Wales and Scotland (Or is Corby the single exception?)

 

Dalston Western curve - Dalston Junction, Haggerston, Hoxton, Shoreditch High Street. - Vallance Road portal (names of new stations in italics): East London Line.

 

Silwood Junction - Old Kent Road Junction: Overground Phase 2 (no new stations but passive provision at Surrey Canal Road (Millwall)).

['CHARD]

New stations on existing lines:

 

Fishguard & Goodwick

Aylesbury Vale Parkway

Glasshoughton

Llantwit Major

Warwick Parkway

Coleshill Parkway

[DavidLong]

Hope they are successful - the big thing this scheme has against it is that it's in England . I'm open to correction but I believe no new stations or lines have opened to passengers in England (other than HS1 and DLR extensions) since at least 2000 whereas plenty have opened or are under construction in Wales and Scotland (Or is Corby the single exception?)

I think that it may be more accurate to say that Corby is the exception outside of the devolved railway administrations.

Edited January 9, 2013 by DavidLong

[Edwin_m]

There are more new stations than you might think. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Railway_stations_opened_by_Network_Rail

 

I guess it would be difficult for Keswick trains to go anywhere further than Penrith, which is unfortunate as the change would act as a bit of a disincentive. 

[Norm81]

Opening "Big tunnel" won't be easy, you can only just see the top of the portal furthest from Keswick and the other one is completely buried. Walked from Keswick as far as the caravan park after the big tunnel and back last year.

[The Stationmaster]

I guess it would be difficult for Keswick trains to go anywhere further than Penrith, which is unfortunate as the change would act as a bit of a disincentive. 

 

They will have to go to Carlisle - its' the only way anything can be made to work in the business plan as there is considerable resistance (in a marketing assessment terms) to having to change at Penrith.  Hence ideally the units used on the service would be 100mph capable to improve pathing capability north of Penrith.  Of course high line speeds and units capable of higher speed push the costs up but it was found to be the only way to make anything approaching an attractive (to the market) option when it was 'tested' as I understand things.  The biggest potential market - whatever might be said but according to analysis - is to/from Carlisle and even then it needs highish speeds to make it work, hence the 90mph linespeed target on the branch itself.

 

If this scheme is to be successful it needs that sort of approach - not exactly comparable with all sorts of other reopenings and definitely not in the 'heritage' area.

[Guest Max Stafford]

 Of course, BURC will be able to offer a lovely out and back package in conjunction with CKP to Keswick from Hawick Lochpark via Carlisle in about 25 years...

 

Dave.

[DavidLong]

Of course, and maybe to the advantage of Keswick, the North of England could become part of the Railway Devolvement Process.

I suspect that any sunstantive devolution of decison making to the north will be mainly to tha advantage of the metropolitan areas and I've read that shire county administrations are sceptical about how much they stand to gain from such a process. The people at SELRAP who are campaigning for the reinstatement of Colne to Skipton are working long and hard on this project which links the substantial urban areas of East Lancashire and West Yorkshire. This could have real benefits in terms of opening up access to employment opportunities but they don't appear to be making real headway with the essential decision makers. All of this route lies within shire county boundaries. On the other hand the first English reinstatement outside London is likely to be the full re-opening of Oxford to Bedford. This has been supported by the heavyweight East-West rail partnership and is working in an area of rapidly growing population and a route that could have significant advantages for railfreight. Sadly neither of these factors are present for Penrith-Keswick and I wish the project every success but I feel that there may be many more hurdles to overcome and financial burdens to confront before the goal can be reached.

[Gwiwer]

Looked at from an outsider's point of view if the WHR can do it then anyone probably can.  The difference being whether or not Keswick were to be fully integrated into the WCML or return as it was before as a costly branch line with rolling stock not realistaclly capable of mixing with the main line stuff.

 

There is ever-growing pressure on the road network throught the Lake District generally and an understanding among at least some key people that road improvements are not always the answer (in whole or in part) nor in every acse are they realistically possible.  The other options are more buses (provided in some cases) or a return of lost rail links.

 

Penrith - Keswick might have survived had it been possible to integrate it with the WCML rather than require crews and a train set effectively captive to the branch and as such affecting the financial viabilty of what was still quite a well-used line right to the end.

 

To borrow from elsewhere "Perchance it is not dead, but sleepeth"

[phil-b259]

On the other hand the first English reinstatement outside London is likely to be the full re-opening of Oxford to Bedford. This has been supported by the heavyweight East-West rail partnership and is working in an area of rapidly growing population and a route that could have significant advantages for railfreight. Sadly neither of these factors are present for Penrith-Keswick and I wish the project every success but I feel that there may be many more hurdles to overcome and financial burdens to confront before the goal can be reached.

Oxford - Bletchley cannot be compared to either Penrith - Keswick or Colne - Skipton because of the very simple fact, namely the fact that the railway still 'officially' exists between these two places. In fact to be precise about it. (1) Oxford - Bicester bit already exists as a passenger railway, (2) Bicester - Calvert as a freight branch and (3) the remainder (Calvert - Bletchley) is 'mothballed'. Yes the track, etc will need completely relaying on section (3) along with a substantial upgrade to section (2). However section (1) is being taken care of courtesy of Chiltern's plans for an Oxford service so the costs of upgrading this section don't fall to the East West Project.

 

On the other hand Keswick - Penrith or Colne - Skipton start from the major disadvantage of not having a single piece of railway land to use thus the biggest hurdle is not actually the railway engineering side, it is the fact that the amount of money required to buy back the land and create a suitable trackbed makes getting a decent BCR ratio (under the current Governments criteria) nigh on imposable.

Edited January 10, 2013 by phil-b259

[clecklewyke]

Looked at from an outsider's point of view if the WHR can do it then anyone probably can.  The difference being whether or not Keswick were to be fully integrated into the WCML or return as it was before as a costly branch line with rolling stock not realistaclly capable of mixing with the main line stuff.

 

There is ever-growing pressure on the road network throught the Lake District generally and an understanding among at least some key people that road improvements are not always the answer (in whole or in part) nor in every acse are they realistically possible.  The other options are more buses (provided in some cases) or a return of lost rail links.

 

Penrith - Keswick might have survived had it been possible to integrate it with the WCML rather than require crews and a train set effectively captive to the branch and as such affecting the financial viabilty of what was still quite a well-used line right to the end.

 

To borrow from elsewhere "Perchance it is not dead, but sleepeth"

 

I now hate going to my beloved Lake District because of the level of traffic so I would support anything that improves access to it while reducing car usage.

 

 

Oxenholme is one of our railheads and I have seen that trains to Windermere come off the main line from the South, so they are able to mix with WCML services - as an extension to a Manchester - WCML service? I wonder whether the proposed Penrith branch could be run as an extension of the Newcastle - Carlisle service?

 

Ian

[Gwiwer]

I wonder whether the proposed Penrith branch could be run as an extension of the Newcastle - Carlisle service?

I'm not sure how nodding donkeys would cope on the high-speed WCML track nor getting up into the hills from Carlisle  Though I seem to recall those trains are all 156-worked now since the Metro extended to Sunderland and effectively released the 143 fleet to infest the FGW lines.

 

The issue is that any trains would have to be capable of 100mph in order to slot into the existing timetable.  The WCML is now very heavily used through the Lakes with few pathways spare for much of the day.  That's one reason why freight is returning to the S&C - it can't be pathed over Shap.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I now hate going to my beloved Lake District because of the level of traffic so I would support anything that improves access to it while reducing car usage.

 

 

Oxenholme is one of our railheads and I have seen that trains to Windermere come off the main line from the South, so they are able to mix with WCML services - as an extension to a Manchester - WCML service? I wonder whether the proposed Penrith branch could be run as an extension of the Newcastle - Carlisle service?

 

Ian

 

As far as I'm aware it has been looked at solely as a free standing service and in the work I did on the scheme it was pointless looking at combining it with anything else as the set utilisation was plenty good enough on its own and could be identified as a free standing cost.

[DavidLong]

Well, I did say maybe. The Shire Counties could well be loose cannons and on the one hand take the attitude that "If we can't benifit then no one else can" and attempt to scupper the whole idea (Think Bromley and the low Underground fares policy of Ken Livingstone during his time as GLC Leader) or start communicating with each other to ensure that, for the greater good, a joint approach is hammered out and have influence on any devolved transport board but I suspect that Party Politics could well be the downfall of the whole idea. Certianly an alien might be forgiven for thinking that we have designed a powerful force field for cutting through railways where they cross a boundary between each Shire County in England. Whether or not there are enough people within these bodies bright enough to realise that "You gotta be in it to win it" is debatable.     

An example would be the dashed hopes for the reopening of Leicester - Burton to passengers. Back in the latter days of B.R. there was a plan to do this and link it with some reopened stations on the MML. The scheme was backed enthusiastically by Leicestershire and the stations reopened on schedule and an interim stopping service was introduced. That is precisely where it stayed as, before entering Burton (just in Staffordshire) the line passes through Derbyshire for about 3-4 miles. The stumbling block as I remember is that Derbyshire were unwilling to make a financial contribution as the main benefits lay within Leicestershire and Staffordshire.

At least Penrith to Keswick doesn't have this particular problem ('challenge' in modernspeak) being entirely within Cumbria!

[Norm81]

Isn't a deviation suggested for this location?

 

I struggled to find it on that website if there is and can't see where they would deviate it to from what I remember of the local geography.

[jamie92208]

This project is well worthwhile and well thought through.  Political support is needed.  The Council have a history of granting planning permission in places that impact on the trackbed.  One particular problem area is an in dustrial estate not far from Threlkeld where the CKP group have vigourosly opposed developments but permission ahs still been granted.   I hope that the MP's support will start to change this attitude.  Winning the political battle is the first step to reopening.  The canal restoration movement learnt this very effectively and such projects as the Huddersfield Narrow and Rochdale canals.  The poliitcal and planning battlke for those projects was won many years before the money was found to complete the restorations. 

 

I used to travel the keswick line regularly to visit my aunt at Keswick and have many happy memories of it and hope that one day I will be able ti ride it again. 

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

The big deviation - if it happens, and it depends what happens - would be at Santon, for both obvious and less than obvious reasons.

 

And referring to post 27 alas old WTTs are of little help as the infrastructure would probably be quite a bit different (no need to ask me how I know ).

[melmerby]

Isn't a deviation suggested for this location?

I understood that the tunnel has been inspected in the past and it is entirely feasible to re-use it. A deviation would be difficult at this point.

 

The biggest fly in the ointment to re-opening is Eden District Council (who appear to be dead against it) who have gone out of their way to allow development along the route.

Many planning applications could have been modified with a little re-siting to keep the track bed clear, but EDC when challenged would always answer "There are no plans to re-open the line" which as there hadn't been a planning application to do so is strictly correct, but playing with words.

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

As I said just background and most certianly not intended as a future indicator, I apologise for giving a false impression. Indeed the level of service shown here might just be accepted on a Sunday, but most certianly not on Weekdays. A more relevant timetable would perhaps be that published by Stagecoach who operate the hourly X4/X5 Penrith-Keswick-Workington bus service (half hourly between Keswick and Workington), with regular Penrith departures between 07.00 and 23.00 (08.25 - 19.10, 2 hourly on Sundays) and 06.15 - 2215 from Keswick (08.15 - 18.15, 2 hourly Sundays). It is competition from this powerful and well financed organisation that the railway would have to meet head on; some rail traffic would be new to public transport but some would surely come from the bus route and I think that Stagecoach would naturally take a dim view of this. As to what they would do about it we only have to look at the predatory tactics used in the past with competitors (the Darlington Municipal bus operation as an example) and although I would like to see this railway prosper I do think that it will need solid support and sound finance to survive what may be thrown at it by those who, for reasons of their own, would want to see the whole route, like Big Tunnel, buried forever.         

 

If the line is reopened the service will be very much driven by the infrastructure available plus the resource cost.  I certainly worked on the basis of squeezing in as many trains as I could within what the infrastructure options allowed working off a relatively fixed fleet size and the nature of the possible (more like achievable) layout at Penrith.  The WCML situation can also have a considerable impact as even with 100mph capable units it is not easy to find paths and that can undermine both set utilisation and getting a decent shape to a timetable.

 

I think your view on the potential origin of rail passengers is a pretty fair assessment although there's many a slip twixt market analysis and actual b*ms on seats.

[nigelwright7557]

The Keswick project has been going for 20 years approx. and has raised in that time £400,000.

Given the railway will cost £85 million to reopen that means at the current rate of fund raising it will take until 6265 to get enough funds to reopen the line.

 

There is absolutely no need for a railway to Keswick.

The A66 runs fine even in mid summer.

There are plenty of buses and taxis for those without cars.

 

A few years back I took a bus from Keswick to Threlkeld in high season and there were 3 of us on the bus !

If they cant fill a bus they sure wont fill a train !

 

Eden District Council have said the line will never reopen.

 

The NWRDA did a survey and said there was no need for a line to Keswick.

 

 

 

 

 

[KCR]

 

Eden District Council have said the line will never reopen.

 

 

 

As a democratically electect body, they cannot say with any certainty that this is the case, they are subject to the changing winds of politics, as was the now defunct NWRDA, it doesn't even exist any more so I'm not sure how much credibility to give their statements.

 

plus that projection for opening assumes they are foolish enough to be saving up like a kid for a toy, this will not be the case at all, the 400,000 will go towards things that attract more investment to cover the 85 million, things like actually studying the fesablity of it and getting to a point of being able to present a plan of how work should progress.

 

20 years is a short time in railway terms. they were towing wagons with horses for more than 20 years before someone came up with a steam loco to pull them instead.