virginhst539 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 i have started the project of converting a vitrains 37 in to a DRS 37/6. the plan is to sound fit the 37/6 and run in multi with 37229 also a vitrains model as seen on many DRS workings and charters. the only problem is i know legomanbiffos sound chips take power in an under load state where as 37229 justs moves as soon as power is applied. im no expert when it comes to DCC infact i would not know where to start with CV's ect but is there away i can fine tune the Hornby decoder in 37229 with a legomanbiffo 37 decoder for the best results in multi working? i have a sound chipped 37 that i tested 229 with but it just dragged it when taking power and got pushed when slowing =/. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I can't answer your original question but you will need to master the principle of changing CVs if you are to make any progress. Did you form a consist in order to test your 37 with 229 - if so then you changed some CVs? In order to overcome the problem of one loco pushing another, you will need to match each of (at least) 28 speed steps by changing their CVs. A search of the forums will provide a lot of information - try "matching speed steps". After you have done that in silent mode, you can tweak things with sound on but it is likely to be tricky because of the different characteristics of the prototypes and, I guess, the way they were drivesn when the recordings were made. I am sure you will have more informative comments from others. Harold Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
legomanbiffo Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 In my view your chances of getting two sound chipped locos from any two different suppliers to run together (and look and sound right under all driving conditions) are near zero, for a number of reasons. Even if you use two chips from the same supplier, mechanical differences in the locos arising from manufacturing tolerances can still work against successful double-heading. Further, when double-heading I believe that the second sound chip adds nothing to the sound experience but costs twice as much and is very difficult to set up. The issue you describe with one loco starting before the other cannot be adjusted by CV; it is set by the programmer at the design stage. My advice to anyone considering double-heading would be to use a single sound chip in either loco, and run a pair of wires through a micro-connector to a speaker in the second, unmotored loco connected in parallel with the first (take care with impedances though, both must be 8 ohm if you're using a Loksound v4 chip). The illusion works extremely well and you'd never guess you were listening to just one chip. I've done this sucessfully with 25's, 37's and 86's. Using a dummy loco also enables you to fit a much bigger speaker or sound enclosure and astonishing volumes can be achieved by this method. My advice to anyone considering top & tailing would be to use two chips from the same supplier, and disconnect the cardan shafts in one loco so that it free-wheels and is pulled by the other, thereby overcoming any motor speed differences. This is how my HST, Voyager, Pendolino & APT are set up but the principle is exactly the same for normal locos. Obviously this will preclude the second loco being used on its own to haul anything but... For anyone considering top & tailing I can, on request, set up any of my sound chips as a matched pair such that the horns etc only come from the lead loco and change ends when the set reverses. Hope this helps, Bif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class"66" Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Ive had both my 37/4 Biffo sound,and my Howes 37/4 refurb sound runing top n tail in consist on my Rhtt"s,realy well!!! just have to tinker with the cv settings.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 its two vitrains locos one with a Hornby chip one with your 37 chip as for gutting one loco for a speaker this would be fine for my hst but as for the 37s where the consists could change a fair bit. will see if i can get a vitrains 37 on the cheep at model rail if its under £50 i would be happy stripping it down also never know when the spare motor will come in handy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 With great respect, Bif, I hope OP doesn't let your comments put him off. It is well worth persevering and seeing what you can achieve. If it doesn't work, you will have gained a lot of valuable, practical experience - but it does take time. The problem with your fourth paragraph, Bif is that it won't work if you actually need the power of two locos to traverse your incline, as I do. After initial dismay, I have successfully matched a pair of steamers - a Bachmann Ivatt 2MT tank and a Hornby L1 (both Olivias sound fitted) and a pair of Bachmann (factory fitted sound) diesels - a class 37 and a class 25. Part of the success is the way they are driven - starting on speed step 1 and waiting for movement. Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
legomanbiffo Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Yes, I hope so too and that wasn't my intention. I do agree that experimentation is the only way to learn about these things. I was trying to highlight how speed and sound matching two locos is less straightforward as you might think, and I was careful to specify 'under all driving conditions'. One thing that can catch you out is if one loco has a brief delay before pulling away (eg whilst a brake release sound is played), and the other does not. The latter loco will drag (or push) the other for this brief period. The methods I suggested won't be right for everyone and your need for the power of two motors on an incline is just one example of where they aren't. Hopefully though, they will provide food for thought. Bif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 i have had time to think on the idea and gutting a vitrains loco will no be the end of the world in going to try and hunt out a DRS compass livery vitrains 37 at model rail scotland for a decent price and use a pair of PH designs resin nose's to get something a bit diffrent (423 or 069). i have found some conductive coupleings that should do the job of running between the two locos. and with all the gears and what not out of the way should just have room for some lights! also a hst with coach lights and sound at each end sounds rather nice bif but one think at a time.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 One thing that can catch you out is if one loco has a brief delay before pulling away (eg whilst a brake release sound is played), and the other does not. The latter loco will drag (or push) the other for this brief period. Bif As it happens I needed to remove my stock today from the lower level of my layout so that I could start a major modification to the lower level. I used my two matched diesels to do it, with sound working on both. It worked very well but, I had to wait on speed step 1 while the second loco started to move and then incresae the speed slowly to about half speed. One loco starting first is immaterial at such a slow speed - it only realy takes up the slack in the couplings. I raised seven coaches at a time and found it most enjoyable to have different sounds emanating from each loco. My incline is not only steep but turns through 180 degrees in a space of about five feet - I did have a derailment with the first train but then discovered that I was pushing a tension lock coupling with a Kadee; the second train worked perfectly. Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruston165 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Myself and my cousin were at the model railway club last night, he has a WCRC 37 with Biffo's sound in it and i have a DB 37 with Biffos chip in it, we tried double heading them but we found that the WCRC 37 leading was dragging the DB 37 although they were both at the same speed setting on the controller, the lead loco was always a step ahead of the other. And we dont want to start messing around with any settings. I also have a friend who has 2 class 20's, and as Biffo said, he has made the inner loco a dummy with a larger speaker in it with wires coming through from the leading 20 with chip,and its brilliant. Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 yeah i dont want to much about with setting eather i have had my sound chipped 24 with the 25 running ok Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 26, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2013 I would concur that you'll struggle matching sound and non-sound locos. You might be able to get them nearly matched when the sound loco is on, but then they won't match when the sound is disabled. I've top n tailed sound locos in various formats and here's my findings. All these run on Blackmill and have been extensively used at exhibitions. We don't turn round the sets, they are simply reversed to get back to the other end of the layout. 31's either end of my UTU2 rake - I depowered one by removing the cardan shafts as Bif advises above. I wired through the speaker from one loco to the depowered loco. It was fitted with a normal decoder simply to power the lights, which were disconnected on both locos at the inner ends - I now disable the lights a different way. The problem with this method is that the horns aren't directional. I did worry about pushing from the back loco, with a fairly heavy, but free running 31 at the lead end. The key is to have reasonably rigid couplings between the vehicles. The NMT HST set was done is a simlar way, but the next one will have two sound decoders with only one power car motored. The SGT rake was done differently. I have two 31's - fully sound and powered - one carries a Howes "Mk1" file and the other a "Mk2" file. They sound slightly different, and I struggled to get them matched through the speed range until I discovered that the mid-point CV of one of them was offset to the other. Once tweaked, along with top speed and acceleration, they run very well in powered mode either end of a 3 coach plus wagon rake. After a sugggestion from Bif, the horns were made so that they only operate on the leading loco - this is very easy to do with a Loksound programmer and "tick boxes". Inner end lights were disconnected as Hornby 31's are a dog to individually switch lights due to the negative common wiring of them. Next up was a pair of 37's either end of a four coach Arriva S&C set. Both locos individually sound fited, but one has it's cardan shafts removed. Lights only operate at the outer ends as the 37's have been modified with switched taillights from Aux 1/2. Again, the "tick boxes" were used to disable the lights on the inner ends of the locos. Leading loco horns only. The latest top and tail pair of DRS 37's were loaded with identical sound files and the max speed CV tweaked so that they run closely together. Horns and lights are disabled on the inner ends by programming. These run either with a two wagon RHTT set, or either end of a four coach test train - RSC3. All the above locos are usually run in fixed formation sets. I know I'm going to have fun when I want to use "mixed" locos either end, such as a 31/37 pair, or even a 37/73. I'll probably end up removing the cardan shafts from one loco. We have a permanently coupled pair of 20's - one has it's motor removed and fitted with a large speaker, wired as Bif describes - very effective. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class"66" Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Ive been runing two of my Legomanbiffo 37/0 sounds,on two of my 37"s tonight.Ive found some of the new 21 pin Bachmann chassie"s tend to pull more than others when in Consit!! and others dont.So its just matter of getting the speed setting right between both loco"s to stop the wheel dragging.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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