Permissive working for Freight on a Passenger Relief Line?

[DavidBird]

Is it the following situation realistic for a BR LMR ex-MR 1950/60s layout.

On a 3-track section of line, which has an Up and 2 Down lines, is it possible that the Down Relief Line is permissive for freight, yet can also be regularly used for passenger trains (obviously not permissively)?

Or would it be only one or the other - Absolute block for all trains or Permissive freight only?

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Where there were additional running lines on the Midland, the two lines in a particular direction were usually named Fast and Slow or Main and Goods.  Slow lines were normally Absolute Block and carried both freight and passenger trains, Goods lines were often Permissive Block and carried only freight trains under normal circumstances, but passenger trains used them during engineering work or failures. When used for passenger trains special instructions for working as Absolute Block applied.

[The Stationmaster]

Although I believe it was not the case on the Midland part of the LMR (see explanation by Signal Engineer above) there was a block system known, rather confusingly, as 'Passenger Permissive Block' which could be applied on lines used by both passenger and freight trains with permissive working only applicable to freights.  I suspect this system was mainly used over short sections but it is a very long time since I came across it and i don't know if the LMR was into using it.

[TheSignalEngineer]

  Permissive block working must becoming rare these days with signalling modernisation schemes.

There was a lot of permissive working on Goods lines on the Midland when Saltley, Derby and Trent were commissioned c1968/9. There was an accident on the Down Goods near Water Orton in fog, probably around 1975. Following this the calling-on aspects on the Goods Line signals were disconnected.

 

Although I believe it was not the case on the Midland part of the LMR (see explanation by Signal Engineer above) there was a block system known, rather confusingly, as 'Passenger Permissive Block' which could be applied on lines used by both passenger and freight trains with permissive working only applicable to freights.  I suspect this system was mainly used over short sections but it is a very long time since I came across it and i don't know if the LMR was into using it.

The Goods lines on the Midland section was generally full of nose to tail freights on the approch to yards such as Washwood Heath, so passenger trains didn't often run on them.

I was involved in one instance at Castle Bromwich in 1966 where a set of facing points in the Down Main had been damaged by a trailing run-through. The following morning a set of switches arrived from Sandiacre by special train (9F, bogie bolster and brake van). We were given a 2 hour margin after the 10.01 stopper to change the switches. During that time the Down Goods was worked Absolute Block passing trains including the Down Cornishman. The 12.01 stopper passed over the new switches on time. Nowadays I fear it would take longer than that to fill in the paperwork and set up the worksite. It would definitely not be done between two lines open for traffic. 

[DavidBird]

Thanks for your replies.  Mike Stationmaster's reply says it was possible, but not on MR/LMR lines. I'm imagining a East Midlands location, so a MR/GNR joint line, or end-on junction is possible.  Was Passenger Permissive used on GNR? Also, would the lines be known as Fast/Slow, Main/Goods, Main/Relief, or something else?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for your replies.  Mike Stationmaster's reply says it was possible, but not on MR/LMR lines. I'm imagining a East Midlands location, so a MR/GNR joint line, or end-on junction is possible.  Was Passenger Permissive used on GNR? Also, would the lines be known as Fast/Slow, Main/Goods, Main/Relief, or something else?

I don't know of the LMR using it - not quite the same thing and certainly on the Midland section the Goods Lines further north were Goods Permissive.  But on a semi-imaginary model location there's not necessarily anything to stop you using it although I do suspect it was most likely on shorter sections.  

 

Interestingly the following appeared in the explanatory notes for the new (BR standard) Block Regulations issued to staff on lines worked previously in accordance with the LMS Regulations -

' ... Permissive Working for both passenger and freight trains will not apply on any line unless specially authorised.'  Implying (as indicated by the previous LMS Regulations) that permissive working could be previously applied on a line used by both passenger and freight trains.

 

The naming of lines is in some respects irrelevant with different Regions using different terminology although teh officla BR standardisation was based on Fast and Slow.  However if a line was termed 'Goods' that was inevitably what it meant, if it was termed 'Slow' it might in some places have meant it was Absolute Block while in others it might have been permissive and normally used only by freights.

[DaveF]

Although I believe it was not the case on the Midland part of the LMR (see explanation by Signal Engineer above) there was a block system known, rather confusingly, as 'Passenger Permissive Block' which could be applied on lines used by both passenger and freight trains with permissive working only applicable to freights.  I suspect this system was mainly used over short sections but it is a very long time since I came across it and i don't know if the LMR was into using it.

I've just had a very quick look at the April 1980 copy of the LMR Sectional Appendix, it seems there were isolated instances of this, labelled as "PF", described as Permissive working on Passenger Line for freight trains.

 

Examples :

Basford Hall Junction to Sydney Bridge Junction (Independent Lines)

Gresty Lane No1 to Salop Goods Junction (Salop Lines).

 

I couldn't find any on ex Midland Railway routes.

 

I did note that the goods lines through Leicester, specifically London Road Junction to Bell Lane, just under 1 mile, are shown as "NB" No Block.

 

David

[Late Turn]

Is this not the situation today between Langham Junction and Oakham?  Permissive block working must becoming rare these days with signalling modernisation schemes.

Almost but not quite - the goods lines between Langham and Oakham are both 'no block', so they are effectively worked permissively (in as much as you can keep putting them in until they're full!) for freight trains but can't normally be used for passenger trains without special arrangements (only one at once, and the outlet points clipped and scotched). I suppose the end result isn't very much different though.

 

Hello everyone, by the way! Keep popping in here for model railway inspiration, but haven't quite got around to building it yet...

 

Tom

[DavidBird]

Thanks all.

The section of line on my model will be a short one, I'll be lucky to fit 2 more than moderate length freights in at once! 

Not relevant to the model, but how was a PF Permissive working on Passenger Lines for Freight line worked in terms of bellcodes etc?

[eastwestdivide]

...

I did note that the goods lines through Leicester, specifically London Road Junction to Bell Lane, just under 1 mile, are shown as "NB" No Block.

When I hung around Leicester birdcage in the early 80s, you fairly often got queuing freights two in a section on the up goods line (i.e. Bell Lane to London Road). I did once see a DMU railtour go through using the goods lines, but unfortunately I've no inside knowledge of the arrangements.

[The Stationmaster]

Almost but not quite - the goods lines between Langham and Oakham are both 'no block', so they are effectively worked permissively (in as much as you can keep putting them in until they're full!) for freight trains but can't normally be used for passenger trains without special arrangements (only one at once, and the outlet points clipped and scotched). I suppose the end result isn't very much different though.

 

Hello everyone, by the way! Keep popping in here for model railway inspiration, but haven't quite got around to building it yet...

 

Tom

They are a very different thing from Passenger Permissive block as in this case they require special arrangements to be put in place for passenger trains working.  On Passenger Permissive block that wasn't necessary.

[Late Turn]

Thanks Mike - I wasn't quite sure whether the post I quoted was referring to the first or second post, and confused myself thoroughly by the end of it! I settled for TheSignalEngineer's post in the end, comparing a goods line worked under permissive block to a no block line. As you say, all very different to a passenger line worked permissively for freight trains.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks all.

The section of line on my model will be a short one, I'll be lucky to fit 2 more than moderate length freights in at once! 

Not relevant to the model, but how was a PF Permissive working on Passenger Lines for Freight line worked in terms of bellcodes etc?

David I am going to assume that you understand 'ordinary (double line) absolute block working - if you don't fully understand don't be afraid to shout because you might not understand some of the terminology I am about to use.

 

The Block Regulations were - as was so often the case - slightly ambiguous but basically passenger trains would be signalled in the normal manner and the usual 440yard Clearing Point (plus an empty block section of course) was required before a signalman could accept a passenger train.

 

The conditions for accepting a freight train were however different (and they were also slightly different from Goods Permissive as it happens.  Thus a freight could be accepted with a 4-3 bell signal as long as the line was clear to the Home Signal and there was no train or vehicle containing passengers within the normal Clearing Point or that clearing point was not being used to accept such a train (e.g at a junction).  Also - just as in Goods Permissive a freight train could be accepted with a 2-4-2 bell signal when teh section was already occupied by a freight train or trains.

 

Train Out of Section was sent for passenger trains, and the block cleared from 'Train On Line' in the same way as for Absolute Block.  But for freights clearing back was different (and was again slightly different from Goods Permissive).  Thus the Train Out of Section bell signal was sent as each freight train passed beyond the outermost Home Signal but when the last freight train had passed through the section additionally a single beat on the bell was sent when it passed beyond the Clearing Point and once that had been acknowledge the block was replaced to Normal.

 

The 2-1 (TOS) bell signal was acknowledged from the 'box in rear by one beat on the bell if another train had entered the section.

 

And that's it - as simple as that. 

[beast66606]

David,

 

What area are you looking at ? - I'll check the sectional appendices for you to see what was the norm in that area.

[DavidBird]

David,

 

What area are you looking at ? - I'll check the sectional appendices for you to see what was the norm in that area.

East Midlands, BR LMR ex-MR (or ex-MR/GNR joint), 1950s/60s/70s

 

David I am going to assume that you understand 'ordinary (double line) absolute block working -

...

 

The conditions for accepting a freight train were however different (and they were also slightly different from Goods Permissive as it happens. 

...

Thanks, I understood most of that.  Can you also explain what the "normal" Goods Permissive methods were?

 

... - the goods lines between Langham and Oakham are both 'no block', so they are effectively worked permissively

...

 

Tom

I've not actually come across "No Block" before.  How was this worked, was it just a case of "piling them in until it's full"?

 

PS I've also edited the title of the thread to make it slightly more obvious what the discussion is about.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

Can you please confirm that permissive working of freight trains on Passenger Lines as explained in your 3rd paragraph is applicable to all BR regions except the Western?

 

As the block instrument (on an absolute block line) would not have a 'tell-tale' or 'recording' indicator, was the running total of freight trains in the block section noted in the train register of both the boxes at each end of the block?  The point I am coming to is how both signalmen are assured that the section is now clear and once the last freight train has passed complete the clearance point of the box in advance, absolute block working for passenger working could re-start.

Paul the Permissive Block Regulations as such are long disappeared and if they exist anywhere they will only be in Signalbox Special Instructions (Salop is a possible) but Passenger Permissive Block would be very unlikely indeed nowadays.

 

It's quite easy to work permissive block without 'counting' block instruments (which were of course entirely manual in any case, so might be wrong!) but you need either careful TRB booking and some use of reminders - favourites being (on the Western at any rate) lever collars piled on top of a block instrument or even on the Home Signal lever handle.  I was always very careful when signing TRBs to make absolutely sure I checked permissive counters against the TRB and on one occasion one of my Signalmen not only had the counter on the maximum but also had a couple of collars on top of the instrument.  I duly checked the TRB - which only showed 3 trains in the section and straight-faced asked him for the DI's 'phone number.  He obviously asked why and I told him it was so I could get a Reliefman out to cover him asap as I would be taking him out of the 'box in view of the serious disagreement between the book and the block instrument.  His description of me then got quite lurid and the joke duly vanished as the lever collars were put away and the counter altered to agree with the book.  Wonder what would happen with little bits of fun like that on today's railway?

[The Stationmaster]

East Midlands, BR LMR ex-MR (or ex-MR/GNR joint), 1950s/60s/70s

 

Thanks, I understood most of that.  Can you also explain what the "normal" Goods Permissive methods were?

 

I've not actually come across "No Block" before.  How was this worked, was it just a case of "piling them in until it's full"?

 

PS I've also edited the title of the thread to make it slightly more obvious what the discussion is about.

The difference on Goods Permissive was relatively straightforward

When the section was empty of trains a train could be accepted, by repetition of the 'Is Line Clear?' bell signal provided the line was clear to the (outermost) Home Signal (i.e the 4-3 bell signal was not used).

 

When there was already a train or trains in the section the 2-4-2 acceptance was used.

 

'Train Out of Section' was sent for each train once it had passed beyond the (outermost) Home Signal and was acknowledged by one beat on the bell, counting etc block instruments being adjusted by each Signalman as each train cleared.

 

When the last train cleared the "Train Out of Section' bell signal was sent as soon as it had passed clear of the (outermost) Home Signal and the block was placed to Normal  (and before anyone queries - yes, the Signalman always had to ensure that the train was complete with tail lamp before sending ToS for it.

[Late Turn]

I've not actually come across "No Block" before.  How was this worked, was it just a case of "piling them in until it's full"?

 

Correct, normally you can happily keep putting them in there until there's no room for any more, describing each one over the phone to the chap at the other end - unless you want to run a passenger train over it, there's fog or falling snow or (in the case of the Up Goods from Langham to Oakham) one required to shunt at the intermediate siding! This has only been the arrangement since 1973 though (see the caption to this photo), before which both lines were (the much more interesting) permissive block.

[beast66606]

The LNWR had block instruments which could work both permissive and absolute, there was a tell tale flap on the front which was moved to the relevant position (in conjunction with the other bobby of course) - some of these were still in use on the independants at Crewe in the 1990s when I visited Salop Goods Jcn.

 

Goods lines could still be worked using absolute block, the Up Goods between Rock Ferry and Hooton North was worked under AB regulations, but it had previously been the up fast.

 

I'll check the SA later when I dig it out, I'm currently moving my documents between houses.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

I failed to accurately qualify my question.  I was referring to the 1960 Sig Regs books.  The BR(W) book makes not mention of passenger permissive working, but the other regions' book does.

 

Working within 'Station limits' on a Permissive line:  was it one train only permitted between each stop signal, unless there was a calling-on arm below a stop signal?

Sorry Paul,

 

Yes the WR Permissive Regulations were different and Passenger Permissive did not exist on the Region.  However the Western Regulations were changed over to the BR standard Permissive Regulations in December 1966 (fortunately I didn't clip the date off the bottom of that amendment!).

 

The second question is the real crippler and the answer literally depended on who you asked with in some places there being a strict interpretation of the book while elsewhere the attitude was 'well if it's a permissive line surely you can have more than one train in a signal section in Station Limits' (and that was just my experience on the Western - having worked in all three of its final Divisions).  I think - as far as the Western was concerned - the answer was probably simplified by the fact that very signal sections on permissive lines had room for more than one train of the usual length in that vicinity.  But you could of course put as many as it would hold into a permissive block section - and in South Wales, even in the early 1970s, that was exactly what we did.

[The Stationmaster]

I guess working passenger permissive block where the starter controlling entry to the section in advance has a 'one pull' for line clear on the block instrument was damned inconvenient!!!????  Sounds like something you would want to avoid.

 

I must admit when I first saw your post #14 about passenger permissive block it struck me as rather hairy, to say the least.  But there it was in my recently acquired 1960 Sig Regs all regions (not W) book.  In today's risk adverse environment 

 

As there is no clearing point in Permissive Block, at a converging junction I guess you can accept two trains that potentially could foul (both lines permissive) .

Passenger Permissive always struck me as rather hairy - probably why the GWR didn't go in for it although I've an idea there might later have been a couple of instances on the Western Region(?) and as you say with a 'one pull' Section Signal you do have a slight problem - unless you have a subsidiary signal of course.

 

Permissive block did indeed allow two trains to be accepted towards a converging junction (or similar situation) if what would normally be the Clearing Points were foul of each other.  The other thing it did - on the Western at any rate - was affect how stop signals were interlocked in the vicinity of pointwork (both facing and trailing).  Also it could lead to some very interesting situations for acceptances when in operation for passenger trains on the Western - there was one 'box I know of where a passenger train could be accepted on one particular line in 4 different ways.

[The Stationmaster]

Sounds intriguing!  Always leave the audience wanting more....

But of course  

 

Well in this particular 'box they could accept trains over one particular line (and I think there was probably also a second one where the same applied) under the following, depending of course on what was happening and line occupation etc

Full 'Line Clear' (repeat the 'Is Line Clear?' bell code.

'Line Clear to Clearing Point Only' = 2-2-2 on the bell.

Warning Acceptance = 3-5-5 on the bell  (this might later have been altered to a 4-3 acceptance but I don't think so, see below), and finally,

Section Occupied (permissive, latterly Platform Permissive) Acceptance - (latterly 2-4-2).

 

In addition a shunt could be made into the Section so Regulation 31 was also authorised which meant a movement could be accepted by repeating the 3-3-2 bell signal.

 

On an adjacent through line trains could be accepted under a full 'Line Clear' or by 'Line Clear to Clearing Point Only'  and on one occasion a former colleague of mine - received a right rollicking from the DI for accepting a train on that line with a 3-5-5 (it was one thing to help out when the Signalman and DI were chatting, quite another to use an incorrect acceptance!).  And in addition the 'box also had a Goods Line where latterly Goods Permissive block applied.

 

And all that of curse was in the days when there were a lot of trains about and a lot of shunting going on. 

[The Stationmaster]

Paul,

 

Regulation  4A (n.b. it is '4 big A' as we used to call it - 4a is Clause a of Regulation 4;) ) was in use all over the shop at one time, even where there were distant signal controls in place. I presume it is still in use at Shrewsbury although it hasn't been in the Block Regulations for very many years - I know it was in use there when I 'did' the 'boxes back in 1992 or thereabouts as it was included in the Special Instructions (this was a not uncommon arrangement - I recall when I was on the Block Regulations review working party back in the 1980s we decided that if a Regulation or part of it was no longer needed on the majority of Regions it would be taken out of the book but it could continue where it was essential but would only appear in the Special Instructions for the relevant 'boxes unless the overall decision was to very specifically discontinue it in any form).

 

Similarly for instance the use of PF on the Western (thanks for that, my South wales Sectional Appendices are an earlier issue so, in GWR fashion, don't have a Table A  ) would be covered by the 'box Instructions prior to it going into the Standard Regulations for the WR

 

Aberdare was at one time a very interesting place (it wasn't too bad still when I first went there in 1962) and the ex-GW station had one time had an example of one of the rarest types of signal on the entire GWR (which alas had gone before 1962 - not that I knew anything about it at that time).

[RailWest]

"....an example of one of the rarest types of signal on the entire GWR..."

 

Another teaser!

 

Repeater backing signal? Ringed distant? Or even ringed backing signal??? (never heard of one of those) Yellow disc?

[The Stationmaster]

"....an example of one of the rarest types of signal on the entire GWR..."

 

Another teaser!

 

Repeater backing signal? Ringed distant? Or even ringed backing signal??? (never heard of one of those) Yellow disc?

It's in there somewhere - sort of - Chris (and you ought to know the answer as it was discussed on JH's site a few years ago - all you need to do is cast your mind back ).