Odd journey / stopping pattern on District Line

[Captain Kernow]

This is just an enquiry about current timetabling, really, so I apologise in advance if this isn't the place for it, but if this is the place where the experts on the London Underground are congregated, I may just be in luck....

 

CTMK had a slightly unexpected end to her trip from Russell Square to Turnham Green on the Piccadilly line the other day (visiting family in London). First of all she got caught out by the fact that the Piccadilly Line doesn't stop at Turnham Green for most of the day (why is that, by the way?).

 

She got off at Acton Town and looked for a District line service back to Turnham Green. A Richmond service came in, and she was told to get on it by a member of staff (I'd have queried that anyway, looking at the way Bedford Park Jct is configured). Anyway, the train departed, but then ran fast to Ravenscourt Park, where it reversed, and departed back westbound, calling at Stamford Brook and Turnham Green.

 

My suspicion is that, given that LUL wish to operate an Ealing Broadway to Richmond service (which wouldn't immediately have sprung to mind, when you look at the diagrammatic Tube map), then the first place that a crossing over manoeuvre can take place is Ravenscourt Park? Presumably they don't allow the train to then call 'all stations' in both directions for timetabling reasons?

 

Just a little thing that's been puzzling us, any comments gratefully received, thanks.

 

[Oldddudders]

No info on the bizarre idea of an Ealing - Richmond service. In my day, maybe now, the 65 bus started outside Ealing Broadway & took you to Richmond, (and in those days onwards to Kingston, Chessington Zoo and Leatherhead).

 

Traditionally, the Piccadilly has not stopped between Acton Town and Hammersmith - but I believe that in more recent years, Turnham Green was added in early morning & late evening services, and maybe Sundays.

[chrisf]

I have never ever heard of an Ealing to Richmond service.  The only explanation that comes to mind is an improvised service following some sort of disruption east of Hammersmith.

 

Chris 

[Edwin_m]

Just checked next week's engineering work, as yesterday's has disappeared off the TfL website.  Apparently there is no District service between Earls Court and Aldgate East.  If this happened yesterday too then it might explain some odd service patterns further west. 

 

Having the Piccadilly non-stop between Hammersmith and Acton Town does at least get it to Heathrow a bit quicker.  For anyone going from or via Kings Cross the Piccadilly is just as quick and a lot cheaper than Heathrow Express once the vagaries of changing at Paddington are allowed for. 

[Metr0Land]

The Piccadilly was always non-stop Hammersmith-Acton Town, it's just that some time back (1970's?) they added late evening calls at Turnham Green to give a better service there.

 

Ref the Ealing-Richmond operation must admit I'd never heard of such a thing.  Not doubting Mrs K but there's nothing on either District Dave site or Gensheet group (people who do rare track/crossovers etc).  What she did was amazingly rare and as Chrisf suggests must have been some kind of improvisation?

[Gwiwer]

This one had me reaching for the track and signalling plans as what I suspected when I read the post (in haste at work) is in fact the case.  Trains on the eastbound slow line (nominally the District Line tracks cannot reverse until West Kensington and then not in service s they must shunt over a crossover.

 

If the eastbound District train ran on the fast lines (nominally the Piccadilly Line tracks) then it would have been unable to serve Chiswick Park and Stamford Brook as there are no platforms.  It could still not have reversed at Ravenscourt Park but could have stopped there.  It would then have been able to stop at Hammersmith and reverse via the Barons Court Siding which is a double-ended turnback facility with access both from and to both fast tracks making it very useful indeed.  It can also be accessed directly from the westbound slow (District Line) track.  As a fully-signalled facility I believe it would be permitted to shunt a loaded train there.

 

I can throw no light upon the unusual service pattern except to note the comments above that there was a blockage farther east which may have created the need for operational reasons to run Ealing - Hammersmith - Richmond services, or it might have been a one-off movement arising from the same situation.

 

Turnham Green is not regarded as a Piccadilly Line station.  When that line was extended west and the route widened to four tracks from (effectively) West Kensington The Piccadilly Line always skipped Ravenscourt Park, Stamford Brook, Turnham Green and Chiswick Park.  Originally part of the Metropolitan District Railway those stations, which are relatively little-used by LU standards, remain served by District Line trains but as noted above Turnham Green is rather busier and has been served by Piccadilly Line trains either on Sundays, on Sunday evenings, or on weekday evenings and Sundays (the service pattern has varied) over the years to offer and enhanced service level.  

 

The District (MDR) originally covered the route to South Harrow and to Hounslow West (Hounslow Barracks as it then was) until the Piccadilly Railway took over.  The Piccadilly extended to link South Harrow with the "Met" at Rayners Lane but the District continued to offer a reducing service (eventually a few peak trains only) to Hounslow West until 1964.  Piccadilly trains never ventured onto the former District Railway Hounslow Town triangle, closed in 1909.

 

Having said all that the four tracks between Barons Court (where they first physically connect) and Acton Town, also onwards to Northfields, are regarded as fully inter-operable.  Under normal conditions the District Line trains take the outer "slow" pair and stop at all stations with the Piccadilly taking the inner "fast" pair and skipping stops as noted.  But each can and sometimes do operate over the other tracks as much for driver route knowledge as anything.  The Acton Town - Northfields section is still run as two parallel westbound tracks with Piccadilly Line trains sometimes running side by side at peak times; the eastbound slow here has, since the District Line abandonment, been kitted out as a test track with various water sprays and is used for brake and adhesion tests.  In emergency it can be used for passenger services but is not in normal use.

 

The 65 bus still links Ealing Broadway and Richmond, running on now only as far as Kingston but has been upgraded to become one of London's many 24-hour routes.  Other routes venture farther south linking Kingston with Chessington and points through to Dorking which used to be way beyond "Red Bus Territory" (other than summer Sunday trips to Box Hill) but was firmly within London Transport's Country area (later LCBS) and had its own green bus and Green Line coach garage.

[Oldddudders]

The 65 bus still links Ealing Broadway and Richmond, running on now only as far as Kingston but has been upgraded to become one of London's many 24-hour routes.  Other routes venture farther south linking Kingston with Chessington and points through to Dorking which used to be way beyond "Red Bus Territory" (other than summer Sunday trips to Box Hill) but was firmly within London Transport's Country area (later LCBS) and had its own green bus and Green Line coach garage.

Ah, yes, the 93, Summer Sundays only, extended from Epsom to Dorking Bus Station, with red RTs. Stopped about 50 years ago!

 

I think the Kingston-Horsham route is 465, which is a nice numeric reminder of what was, while the Kingston - Chessington World of Adventures route is 71, which runs via Copt Gilders, formerly the terminus of the 65A. The tedious speed-humps on the route there are maybe a bit offset by the magnificent external views of both Southern Railway Chessington stations, and the colossal concrete slabs of the overbridge at Chessington North.

[Gwiwer]

Almost spot on with your buses Ian.  The 65 once reached Leatherhead but was split quite some time ago to terminate at Chessington Zoo and a then-new 71 ran the Richmond - Leatherhead section terminating within the "Country" garage there.  Upon conversion from crew-worked RT double-deckers to one-person-operated BL single deckers it became the 265 with the 71 shortened to Richmond - Kingston though still "around the houses" through Ham as opposed to along the main road.  That has now morphed into the 465 and runs through to Dorking (not Horsham - that road belongs to Metrobus route 93 and was part of LCBS route 414 at one time) replacing what was once a section of country bus 470 (formerly West Croydon - Leatherhead - Dorking).  The summer Sunday red bus excursions were extensions of the 93 and in more recent years were re-run briefly (through to Dorking) using an open-top Metrobus with, IIRC, a curious route number either 70U or 70Z.

 

All of this has suddenly taken us a long way from the Captain's enquiry and having had time to think I'm still none the wiser as to why the stopping pattern and curious operation was encountered.  It is most unusual and perhaps there were other reasons on that day why only westbound trains were making station calls between Hammersmith and Acton Town.  If the eastbound slow were closed as seems to have been the case it is possible that District Line drivers are not authorised to stop at the Piccadilly Line "fast" platforms for instance, or that those stops were skipped on that day to avoid delaying the Piccadilly Line service.  

[GoingUnderground]

Ealing to Richmond, is, as others have already pointed out currently impractical. However it could be done by building new connections at the point where the NLL/Overground route between South Acton and Gunnersbury crosses the District and Piccadilly lines, or by rebuilding the old Acton Town to South Acton link and reversing in South Acton.

 

Ealing to Richmond does make sense if they are intending to replace the existing Piccadilly services to Uxbridge with District services as it would mean that Ealing Broadway would keep its District line services, but Richmond might lose its direct service into Earls Court and all points east

[Gwiwer]

The Piccadilly Rayners Lane / Uxbridge service is a bit of an oddball.  It is, in effect, a cross-suburban tube line rather than a direct link to central London and I suspect is quieter than many other lines for that reason.  It is as quick to use the bus from Sudbury as the tube.  There isn't a lot of traffic outbound towards Uxbridge though there is some fairly localised traffic to and from Sudbury itself.  Despite vociferous protests at its steady erosion over many years the Piccadilly service to Uxbridge is less popular than the faster Metropolitan and in reality serves more as a relief to that than an essential through operation in its own right.  

 

The service has been confined to an Acton Town - Rayners Lane shuttle at times over recent years as a consequence to maximise pathways on the much busier Heathrow route and because it inconveniences the lesser number of passengers.  In line with the general upturn in tube services over recent years the through Uxbridge service has been significantly improved.  My impression (from a very small sample of the total number of trips run) is that those trains are lightly used.

 

There isn't an easy answer.  It is desirable to offer a through peak-time service which is when track capacity is at its scarcest.  Emptying trains at Acton Town takes a couple of precious minutes in the platform and often results in others queueing behind.  The same is true of Rayners Lane, Ruislip and Hillingdon when Piccadilly trains terminate there but the pressure on line capacity is rather less than at Acton Town.  LU has seen fit to cut Mill HIll East back to a single train shuttle outside peak hours and it 's possible that the same could be done for the Rayners Lane / Uxbridge service.  If D or S stock is to run north of North Ealing then the route will need to be re-gauged.  It was built for "surface" stock in the days before there was tube stock but most of the structures now would not have the required clearances.  I'm not sure that South Harrow - Rayners Lane was ever cleared for surface stock.

[GoingUnderground]

You seem to forget that Rayners Lane to Acton Town was the regular path for A60 Stock to reach Acton depot.

 

In recent years one or two D Stock trains bound for Ealing Broadway have accepted the wrong line and ended up being reversed at South Harrow.

 

IIRC there are no new overhead structures between Rayners Lane and South Harrow, and much of the the line runs on viaduct. If D Stock fits to South Harrow then there would be no problem with S Stock, where the car lengths are shorter. A gauging run for S Stock sounds like a mere formality.

 

Having lived in the Rayners Lane to Uxbridge area for many years, the Met was my preferred route into Central London if I wanted the City or West End. If I wanted the Richmond, Wimbledon, Hammersmith, Earls Court, South Ken or Knightsbridge areas then I used the Piccadilly line. The Met's time advantage was lost as soon as you had to change at Baker Street for the Circle or Hammersmith lines.

[Gwiwer]

You seem to forget that Rayners Lane to Acton Town was the regular path for A60 Stock to reach Acton depot.

 

Not forgotten - never aware of that being the booked route.

[GoingUnderground]

IRC, the Rayners Lane to South Harrow section was built by the Metropolitan Railway to serve the gas works at South Harrow and to connect to the District Line at South Harrow. So it would have been gauged for surface stock from its inception. At one stage the Dsitrict used to run services through to Uxbridge.  The platform heights between Rayers Lane and Acton Town are all at the intermediate height needed when Surface and Tube Stock run on the same lines. That is why replacing the service with District Line trains would be so attractive to LU/TfL, it is just a timetable change which would be a reversion back to the status quo before the original extension of the Piccadilly line westwards beyond Hammersmith. Station signage would have to change.

 

There was a rather nice picture in the LURS house magazine Underground News of A60 Stock passing through Sudbury Town southbound on its way to Acton in the 1980s or early '90s. A60 stock using that route to reach Acton Depot is well documented.

[Suzie]

Some signing is still in place at Park Royal indicating it is a district line station - it is listed and can't be changed!

[GoingUnderground]

Some signing is still in place at Park Royal indicating it is a district line station - it is listed and can't be changed!

That is surprising, whereabouts are the signs in the station?

 

Park Royal station is a classic 'Holden' style, the architect was actually Felix Lander, and the new building was opened on 1st March 1936. The District service to Park Royal was discontinued on 4th July 1932 when Piccadilly trains took over the service to South Harrow. i'd have thought they would have had plenty of time to sort out the required signage before it was rebuilt. 

 

EDIT: Are you sure you're not thinking of North Ealing which I think was the only station between Acton Town and Ruislip Manor that was not rebuilt in the Holden syle? 

[Suzie]

It is one of the Piccadilli stations in that area that has no district service now. It is on the footbridge, with an accompanying sign explaining why it is there.

 

 

 

Quite a lot of district destinations on the sign, you can just see the explanation below. It must be a relic from 1931.

[GoingUnderground]

The present Park Royal station replaced the original Twyford Abbey station on the other side of Western Avenue. The wording of the explanatory notice beneath the sign in your photo says "Tthis sign is an original feature of the station...." which would date it to 1936, unless the part that is not shown says that it was moved from the old Twyford Abbey station. The arrow has 3 "flights" which I believe dates it to the period 1933 to 1950'ish, suggesting it post-dates the withdrawal of District line services beyond Ealing Common. The grouping of destinations, Piccadilly on the left and District on the right also suggests that it was intended for the station after District services were withdrawn as Piccadilly stations are listed first, i.e. in column 1.

 

However, I would be interested to know what the rest of the sign says though.

[Edwin_m]

You would still use that platform for the stations on the sign, the only thing that is possibly misleading is that it doesn't mention the need to change onto the District for the stations in the second column. 

[Engineer_London]

[roythebus]

I can shed a bit more light on this original query. It is NOT possible to cross from eastbound to westbound on any of the lines between Acton Town and Hammersmith. As someone has said, there is the double-ended turnback siding between Hammersmith and Barons Court that is sometimes used by Picc trains that terminate at Hammersmith or Barons Court, also used at night by engineers trains using Lillie Bridge Depot, just to the east of West Kensington.

 

The four-tracking from Hammersmith to Acton is another bit of history. Remember the LSWR built the line from Hammersmith to richmond, but via Kensington Olympia, then left on the line that was closed circa 1926, to pass under Shepherds Bush Road, past the site of Shepherds Bush bus garage, then to the west side of the H&C line, across Studland Street, then onto the disused vidauct that you see when you come into Hammersmith station! The track layout was revised when the Picc opened up, and was later revised when West Kensington coal depot closed in 1964, severing the triangle that used to be between Turnham Green, Gunnersbury and South Acton, and was used for coal trains.

 

You'll find a lot more detail of this area on the District Dave website.

 

but, back to the OP, I think the lady is mistaken, it's likely her train reversed via the Hammersmith facility or she had to change there.

 

Picc trains ahve to my knowledge always stopped at Turnham Green in the early morning and late evenings; a few in the lat evening also terminate at West Kensington!