RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2013 C&L have today announced a massive program of developments in turnout kits and templates, including for 00 gauge: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42&Itemid=72 What is not yet clear is whether they will be: 1. continuing their present commitment to the minority DOGA-Fine standard, or 2. adopting the 00-BF standard, which has been the traditional "scale" 00 track standard for over 60 years, or 3. embracing the latest 00-SF standard, which is rapidly gaining in popularity because of the improved appearance and running qualities without the need to modify existing wheels. Options 1 and 3 would seem to be the most likely, because many of the tools and components would be common with their EM gauge kits. Once the expensive jigs and tools have been made, it's likely that the chosen standard will be set in stone for a generation. So if you use C&L components to build 00 track, or you can see yourself doing so in the future, now would be a good time to contact C&L and let them know your thoughts about this. I'm sure Pete Llewellyn and Len Newman would value all the feedback they can get before investing in this. To recap for those new to this: DOGA-Fine = 16.5mm track gauge with 1.0mm flangeways (EM minus 1.7, modified wheels back-to-back needed). 00-BF = 16.5mm track gauge with 1.3mm flangeways (easier tolerances but worse appearance and bumpy running with some finer wheels). 00-SF = 16.2mm track gauge with 1.0mm flangeways (EM minus 2, no need to modify existing wheels). regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Hello, I think option 3 would be a good way to go as it doesn't look like the major manufacturers of rtr are going to produce track in british bullhead format any time soon. trustytrev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted March 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2013 For those of us who are used to using standard Peco track, which of these standards will allow the use of current RTR stock without modification? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 10, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2013 For those of us who are used to using standard Peco track, which of these standards will allow the use of current RTR stock without modification? Hi John, 00-BF and 00-SF allow current RTR wheels to be used unmodified. For DOGA-Fine (i.e. the current 00 gauge products from C&L) it is necessary to widen RTR wheels to 14.7mm back-to-back. Otherwise they will jam across the check rails. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 A welcome development and one to be encouraged. A move to better track standards, always a poor cousin, is worthy of attention particularly if a wider range of kits are available. Congratulations to C&L for their efforts! Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I had a chat with Peter about supplying gauges other than roller gauges (wing and check rail gauges) he is aware of them and looking into it but no firm comitments. Having said that a wing rail gauge for EM & 00-SF is just a piece of flat 1mm bar I also notice that they are looking into new check rail chairs, given they have P4 (0.63 gap) ones in the range does that mean they are looking at S4 clearences with 0.58 mm gap? Good news about check rail chairs for EM & 00. Currently for 00-SF & EM I use E4CH403A (0.8mm gap) with one part of the chair cut off, I then set the check rail with a check rail gauge and refit the cut off part. Never tried this with plain 00 as the gap differential may be too large Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hmm, pity I built my new layout to DOOGAF then realised I'd have to change all the wheels! It does look nice though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hi everyone, I am just returning to modelling after a 25 year hiatus! I am currently enjoying honing my skills kit building some loco's and rolling stock for a future layout. I have started a little research into track etc and have pretty much decided on 00-SF having read all the various threads. My question is- Are there any good guides to making your own track? Something that would introduce one to the whole business with description of techniques and pictures. I saw that the right track series had a dvd on the subject but this it would seem is now no longer available. Something to research and read over time would be really helpful to allow future planning. I have had a look at the templot which looks fantastic ... but something dealing with the modelling side rather than layout would be good to start. Something for a complete beginner. Any suggestion much appreciated. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hi Tim, welcome to 00-SF world…:-) This might help with soldered construction. It's something I did a while back, but at least should give you some ideas.. There are loads of different ways of doing things, this route just happens to suit me. Brian Harrap has some good ideas on creating the crossing vees also, so worth tracking his articles down on RMweb. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-update/page-37 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Welcome to RMweb, Tim. Yes, Gordon's soldered track construction is excellent and well worth studying as is his mention of Brian Harrap's approach to crossing vees. Hayfield's turnout workbench is another good topic with step-by-step coverage of turnout building in various methods. The Templot Forum is also worth spending some time on. One question, though. You say you're returning to modelling and kit building locos and stock. Are you starting from scratch or do you already have a large amount of stock. If you don't have much stock, why not forget all the problems of the various 00 narrow gauge standards and think about EM or P4. Track building in EM is no different from 00 though P4 perhaps needs a bit more care. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Pity about the Activity Media DVD being no longer available, it was very good. This, from Iain Rice, though older, is also very useful http://www.amazon.co.uk/Approach-Building-Finescale-Track-4mm/dp/1874103003 other retailers are avaiable.... Gordon's modesty forbids him from blowing his own trumpet too much but seek out his Eastwood Town thread where you'll find much useful practical information and inspiration. Track standards in 4mm are an issue subject to some debate and, often, strong opinion as you may already have realised. Read it all with an open mind, and choose what suits you. A few on here seem to have looked seriously at 00-SF of late so you may, hopefully, see a flurry of activity over the coming weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Tim Building your own track is very rewarding in many ways, cost, design and performance/operation being the main ones (I must have missed loads of other good reasons out). When starting out, just begin with something simple. Secondly it may be worth while starting with copperclad construction, just to get the hang of construction methods, they are very useful for storage yards anyway. There are always exceptions to the rule though, some modellers can lend their hand to anything As a rule of thumb when building large layouts like Gordon's copperclad construction gives you a time efficient way of building track which when painted looks terrific. On smaller layouts where detail is required then chaired track comes into its own. BUT before I get shot down there are always exceptions with small layouts using copperclad construction to great effect and larger ones using chaired track There are plenty of threads with track building advice on the site, just have a go and enjoy yourself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 28, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Are there any good guides to making your own track? Something that would introduce one to the whole business with description of techniques and pictures. Hi Tim, This recent book from Geoff Jones is very good with lots of prototype information and track building ideas: It's from the 2mm Association but applicable to all scales: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/trackbook/index.html Prototype info is important, because if your only knowledge of track comes from the Peco catalogue you can easily set off on the wrong foot. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hi Tim, This recent book from Geoff Jones is very good with lots of prototype information and track building ideas: It's from the 2mm Association but applicable to all scales: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/trackbook/index.html Prototype info is important, because if your only knowledge of track comes from the Peco catalogue you can easily set off on the wrong foot. regards, Martin. I believe C & L also stock this book (although I would probably try to support the 2mm Society by buying direct). Incidentally, does anyone know the location of the photo on the cover? - it's screaming out to be modelled! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 C&L do though, according to their website, they are currently out of stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 28, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 This, from Iain Rice, though older, is also very useful http://www.amazon.co.uk/Approach-Building-Finescale-Track-4mm/dp/1874103003 other retailers are available.... Also worth getting is Iain Rice's book about copper-clad (PCB) track building (from Hawkshill Publications), currently showing still available from Mainly Trains at Watchet. Item HK11: http://www.mainlytrains.co.uk/acatalog/gen-booksmagazinesvideos.html Image linked from: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pragmatic-Guide-Building-Wiring-Laying/dp/B001O4DJVS Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Incidentally, does anyone know the location of the photo on the cover? - it's screaming out to be modelled! It's Shrewsbury. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 28, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Incidentally, does anyone know the location of the photo on the cover? - it's screaming out to be modelled! A famous view of Shrewsbury. I posted another view from 1978 recently in the 00-SF topic: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94567-oo-sf-and-oo-bf-can-you-mix/page-4&do=findComment&comment=1750976 Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hi, Thanks to everyone for their input .... plenty to read and ponder on. It may be a stupid question but how does the power and isolation work when going down the soldered copper clad route? Why 00 ... there's a question. Apart from an old K's kit of an outside frame Dean Goods all my old stock bit the dust years ago (and if truth be told probably wasn't up to much in the first place). The reason I am currently kit building and honing skills is that I am still trying to work out where I can actually put a layout .... so plenty of time to research and make decisions - plus have a trial go at track building. My end goal is to model Rowsley Station on the old MR peak district line circa 1900. The kit building initially led me to 00 as there is more wriggle room on tolerances (especially outside valve gear) . The reason for 00-SF was pragmatic .... the fact that it gives flexibility to use RTR stock and the ability to use Peco 'off stage'. The look seemed excellent if not academically correct - which is certainly backed up by the links you have all suggested. Still very much considering though. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Re the first question, you either make a cut in the copperclad sleeper between the rails or as some do gently file a gap in the copper foil to isolate electrically one rail from the other, Also the common crossing is isolated from both stock rails Instruction sheet from C&L http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/Point.pdf for a plain turnout. The power side is simple, the sleepers and rail are soldered together therfore conduct electricity, thats why you cut isolation gaps in the sleepers and rail. Quite simple once you grasp the idea Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 And at the risk of stating the obvious, you should check the completeness of the gaps before soldering it all up, as it can be hard to find that one bad sleeper in a completed turnout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Highpeak It can be done both ways, obviously it is far easier to find a fault before soldering rails to the sleepers, but many have successfully cut the gaps once the soldering has been completed. I have had problems using both methods, as cutting a very fine (with a razor saw) slit prior to soldering (and checking the gap with a meter) has caused shorts after soldering the rail, I guess due to conductive dust shorting across. The best method I have used to date is to cut the isolation gaps 1 mm + wide first, then fill the gaps with filler and sanding flat before soldering the rails to the sleepers But before we get too complicated just build the turnout first and put decent isolation gaps in the sleepers either pre or post soldering the rail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I called into C&L today and Pete Llewellyn couldn't have been more helpful, nor more generous with his time, whilst I stocked up with various bits in preparation for some turnout building trials. He hopes to have the next batch of 00-SF gauges in stock in about three weeks time. Already back in stock is the book Martin recommended, I picked up a copy, it's very well produced (reminds me a bit of a Wild Swan publication) and runs to 138 very informative pages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have over the past couple of days spoken to two different people who are having trouble with modern RTR stock which is having trouble with their locos running through hand built track, the first using 00sf gauge and the second standard 00 gauge. The latter was using a black 5 and 8f (both I believe Hornby), in checking the back to back measurements (my gauge is 14.5 mm) all were under gauge and on both locos the tender wheels being much worse than the locos. The person with the Hornby locos was having problems with curved turnouts and most would be solved with a few alteration to his build method, The other person had 2 locos from different makers, after checking the back to back measurements these were again out. Is this a common problem with new locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have over the past couple of days spoken to two different people who are having trouble with modern RTR stock which is having trouble with their locos running through hand built track, the first using 00sf gauge and the second standard 00 gauge. The latter was using a black 5 and 8f (both I believe Hornby), in checking the back to back measurements (my gauge is 14.5 mm) all were under gauge and on both locos the tender wheels being much worse than the locos. The person with the Hornby locos was having problems with curved turnouts and most would be solved with a few alteration to his build method, The other person had 2 locos from different makers, after checking the back to back measurements these were again out. Is this a common problem with new locos? John. Since the 'improved' RTR UK models appeared, there has been an improvement in the wheel standards including the BTB measurements. However, I continue to find the odd loco with BTB so narrow they won't pass through 00-SF turnouts. I routinely re-set all my BTBs to 14.5 but there are some, usually the steamers, that cannot be done (by me, anyway). Usually due to the quartering and/or the way wheels/axles are mated together. Sometimes stub axles glued into a plastic centre sections containing the gearwheel (or just a plain axle). These 'glued' types were the reason I went to 00-SF originally. I don't have an answer for these as I've never attempted to re-gauge them. I guess someone on here will have done it though. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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