Mk1 Suburban coaches

[davidw]

Hi these have been in the Bachmann range for a while, and can be improved immensely, with shawplan glazing etc. I find myself a little confused by the range that Bachmann produce. 

 

Can any one clear up what they produce and where this run. I do have the parkin  Mk1 coach book but this seems scant on detail, or I'm not looking in the correct place.

 

Thanks in advance 

[chrisf]

There are two basic coaches in the Bachmann range. The brake second was found on all regions except the Southern. Some of them were built with numbers beginning with 5 but were soon renumbered to make way for dmu vehicles. This is explained in Parkin somewhere.

 

The other suburban coach is a nine compartment second. Some are sold with first class markings on the centre three compartments. Strictly speaking the first class compartments should be wider and the second class compartments narrower. If you fancy cutting and shutting you're a lot braver than I am!

 

The interior that Bachmann make is for the SO[NG], which was laid out as two saloons, one of five bays and one of four. The numbers are in the 480xx series and the prototypes were found on the Western - mostly in the London area though some did escape after the dmus arrived - and the Midland suburban service from Luton to Moorgate. For this latter the ventilators were spaced more widely to give clearance on the Widened Lines and conform to what was called Metrogauge.

 

Far more common was the ordinary non-corridor second, again found on all regions except the Southern and numbered in the 46xxx series. Many survived long enough to receive rail blue and saw out their time working out of Kings Cross into the 1970s. The Bachmann one could do with a new interior. Replica sell 10 compartment ones for their long suburbans which are easily adapted.

 

Call me picky if you like but I don't think much of the Bachmann underframe. It compares very poorly with the one on their gangwayed Mk 1s. Brossard of this parish has had a good go at making a better one using a Comet etch.

 

Chris

[davidw]

There are two basic coaches in the Bachmann range. The brake second was found on all regions except the Southern. Some of them were built with numbers beginning with 5 but were soon renumbered to make way for dmu vehicles. This is explained in Parkin somewhere.

 

The other suburban coach is a nine compartment second. Some are sold with first class markings on the centre three compartments. Strictly speaking the first class compartments should be wider and the second class compartments narrower. If you fancy cutting and shutting you're a lot braver than I am!

 

The interior that Bachmann make is for the SO[NG], which was laid out as two saloons, one of five bays and one of four. The numbers are in the 480xx series and the prototypes were found on the Western - mostly in the London area though some did escape after the dmus arrived - and the Midland suburban service from Luton to Moorgate. For this latter the ventilators were spaced more widely to give clearance on the Widened Lines and conform to what was called Metrogauge.

 

Far more common was the ordinary non-corridor second, again found on all regions except the Southern and numbered in the 46xxx series. Many survived long enough to receive rail blue and saw out their time working out of Kings Cross into the 1970s. The Bachmann one could do with a new interior. Replica sell 10 compartment ones for their long suburbans which are easily adapted.

 

Call me picky if you like but I don't think much of the Bachmann underframe. It compares very poorly with the one on their gangwayed Mk 1s. Brossard of this parish has had a good go at making a better one using a Comet etch.

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris - very full answer- I'll consider the enhancements you describe under frames and interiors. 

[Xerces Fobe2]

The suburban seconds where also used as the centre cars for Class 501 EMU's,  the only difference being was that they were fitted with window bars.

 

XF

[31A]

There are two basic coaches in the Bachmann range. The brake second was found on all regions except the Southern. Some of them were built with numbers beginning with 5 but were soon renumbered to make way for dmu vehicles. This is explained in Parkin somewhere.

 

The other suburban coach is a nine compartment second. Some are sold with first class markings on the centre three compartments. Strictly speaking the first class compartments should be wider and the second class compartments narrower. If you fancy cutting and shutting you're a lot braver than I am!

 

The interior that Bachmann make is for the SO[NG], which was laid out as two saloons, one of five bays and one of four. The numbers are in the 480xx series and the prototypes were found on the Western - mostly in the London area though some did escape after the dmus arrived - and the Midland suburban service from Luton to Moorgate. For this latter the ventilators were spaced more widely to give clearance on the Widened Lines and conform to what was called Metrogauge.

 

Far more common was the ordinary non-corridor second, again found on all regions except the Southern and numbered in the 46xxx series. Many survived long enough to receive rail blue and saw out their time working out of Kings Cross into the 1970s. The Bachmann one could do with a new interior. Replica sell 10 compartment ones for their long suburbans which are easily adapted.

 

Call me picky if you like but I don't think much of the Bachmann underframe. It compares very poorly with the one on their gangwayed Mk 1s. Brossard of this parish has had a good go at making a better one using a Comet etch.

 

Chris

Just noticed this thread, and to set the record straight, Bachmann HAVE made the more common 'ordinary non corridor second' (S) with an appropriate interior moulding as well as the Open Second (SO); in fact I think they've probably made more of the former than the latter (I have several!).  The only differences are the interior mouldings, and running numbers as appropriate.

[davidw]

Which ones should I be aiming for 31A? Same period and target region as you.

[Guest Max Stafford]

If you can acquire some cheap Bachmann BGs you can use the underframe to good effect. I've done a BS in this manner.

[31A]

The Brake Second and Compartment Second were used on King's Cross suburban services into the '70s, and elsewhere on the Eastern Region; the Open Seconds were only allocated to the LM and Western Regions, and the Composites were allocated to LM, Scottish and Western Regions.

 

For example, currently listed at Hattons, 34-609 BR Mk1 Suburban 2nd and 34-631 BR Mk1 Suburban 2nd Brake would be suitable for an Eastern Region layout (although not sure whether the above have 'E' prefixed numbers or not), whereas 34-608 BR Mk1 Suburban 2nd Open and 34-703 BR Mk1 Suburban Composite would not.  The above are all in weathered crimson livery, but in the past Bachmann have produced numerous other livery varieties of the same models which can easily be picked at swapmeets etc.

 

The Eastern did have their own versions of Mk1 non-gangwayed Second Lavatory Open and Composite Lavatory vehicles, but Bachmann haven't made them.  The former can be converted from the Bachmann Open Second with some work (although that's another story!) and Hornby Thompson Composite Lavatories make a good substitute for the latter - both were used together in mixed rakes.

[andyman7]

The suburban seconds where also used as the centre cars for Class 501 EMU's,  the only difference being was that they were fitted with window bars.

 

XF

Plus the multiple working connections and busbars on the coach ends (the DTBS had pickup shoes on the outer bogie which needed routing to the DMBS via the centre trailer)

[chrisf]

 

If you can acquire some cheap Bachmann BGs you can use the underframe to good effect. I've done a BS in this manner.

 

Replica had some of these underframes on their stand at Ally Pally. I had only a brief look at them but I got the impression that the battery boxes are not in the right place for suburbans. Be that as it may, they must be an improvement on the awful things that are fitted to the subs as made!

 

Chris [edited for hasty typing]

[brossard]

Regarding battery boxes, my research has found that brakes had them both on one end while other coaches had them diametrically opposed:

 

 

This is not done on the Bachmann U/F.

 

John

[31A]

Regarding battery boxes, my research has found that brakes had them both on one end while other coaches had them diametrically opposed:

 

 

 

This is not done on the Bachmann U/F.

 

John

Good spot, I must admit I hadn't noticed that!

 

I've been considering options for improving the underframes of these coaches, and there are pros and cons as usual.

 

The Bachmann BG would give you a close coupling mechanism, if that kind of thing worries you.  However the buffers are wrong, being representations of retractable buffers in the 'short' position.  Also, the step boards would also be in the wrong positions, and in fact the non gangwayed coaches had full length step boards running the whole length of the vehicle - something difficult to add neatly and robustly; one way might be to glue a length of brass 'L' angle to the flat face of the solebar?  The battery boxes on the BG underframe are located opposite each other and presumably (as per Brossard's post) therefore correct for brake coaches but wrong for other types.  However, on the Bachmann BG they are separate moudings so it should be possible to relocate them.

 

On the other hand, the underframe which comes with the non gangwayed coaches has correct buffers and step boards, and the battery boxes are correctly located for at least most types of vehicle.  Admittedly the truss rodding isn't quite as well moulded as on the BG, but this is scarcely visible from most viewing angles.  Which leaves the least good feature of the non gangwayed underframes IMHO, the brake gear (V hangers and cylinders).

 

In view of the above, Replica Railways are at the York show and I can see myself investing in some of their item RA33 'Mk1 coach chassis components', which contains 2 brake cylinders, 2 V hangers and 2 battery boxes (and a dynamo and lighting regulator assembly), which should allow the above deficiencies to be improved on the non gangwayed underframes.

 

Meanwhile, here's my attempt at an SLO:

 

 

 

Made using the lavatory compartment window section from DC Kits' kit for the same type of vehicle, grafted into a Bachmann SO, and glazed with Shawplan Lazerglaze.  The aerosol paint finish is a bit disappointing, but less obviously so to the naked eye.  I've got another one on the stocks, and might brush paint that - I seem to have better luck with brushes!

[Armchair Modeller]

That conversion looks interesting. Is the Bachmann RTR coach significantly better than the DC Kits version? Otherwise, it seems a lot of extra work.

[31A]

That conversion looks interesting. Is the Bachmann RTR coach significantly better than the DC Kits version? Otherwise, it seems a lot of extra work.

Thanks; you're not wrong - but it's a long story! There might even be some people who've been on here long enough to remember a thread I started when I set out on these conversions.  Back then, I started out to make a pair of SLOs by filling in the middle compartment door and window detail on an SO body and then carving out a new lavatory window.  But to be honest I was never happy with the way that was going - I couldn't shape the new window to my satisfaction, or fill in the redundant door lines as well as I would have liked.  There it stagnated for a few years, until I came across Marc Models and their sides for a Mk1 CL.  I formulated a plan to buy two DC Kits SLOs and use the lavatory compartment sections for the SLOs (see above) and use the remains of the kits with the Marc Models sides to make a couple of CLs.  Then, those nice people at Margate announced the Thompson CLs.....

 

 

Edit - PS, I think DC Kits might sell you those parts from their SLO kit separately if you wanted to carry out the same conversion.

[Armchair Modeller]

Thanks - glad I asked, even if it was a little awkward for you to explain. 

[cheesysmith]

Those toilet compartment sides look like the ones from the emu kits.

[coachmann]

 I feel only etched sides can do flush-sided vehicles such as these full justice.

 

[31A]

 I feel only etched sides can do flush-sided vehicles such as these full justice.

 

 

I'm sure you're right, but I've got quite a lot of them!

 

I think the Lazerglaze flush glazing makes them look almost as good as ones with etched sides.

 

 

Those toilet compartment sides look like the ones from the emu kits.

 

 

I'm sure it will be the same part; in fact I should think the whole SLO kit will be a part of some EMU kits!

 

 

Does anyone know where you can get a part to represent the lavatory window ventilator (between the two toplights)?  For the coach in my picture I cut the ventilator from some Bachmann Mk1 glazing and sanded it thin from the reverse (having already cannibalised the coach for other purposes), but I've got a second one to finish and it seems a bit desperate to buy a whole coach just for that part!  I asked 247 Developments and Comet at the York show yesterday, but no joy there and haven't spotted them on anybody else's lists either.

[CloggyDog]

I'm in the midst of doing a couple of SLOs myself - I went for 31A's earlier version of sealing the centre compartment and opening out the droplight to 'lavvy' size, but used the Replica Mk1 lavvy window, trimmed to size, which has the ventilator moulded in place. 

 

Other options for the vent that I can think of... Bill Bedford's etched brass sides for the CL comes with 3 ventilator (2 of which you need for the CL, of course) but might represent an expensive solution! (Bill also does the SLO, which probably includes the ventilators)

 

I have most of the various Mk1 detailing etches (MJT, Southern Pride, etc) and don't recall the ventilator on any of those, sadly.

[Dogmatix]

What is interesting about these models is that the bogies have a cut-out at the outer end, and the floor is recessed above the bogies, which makes it easy to fit a Symoba close-coupling unit.

[Baby Deltic]

On my exhibition layout I tend to run MK1 suburban GN and LMR trains with two compartment seconds and a brake second because the platform is designed for three car class 501's.

 

[coachmann]

Isn't life weard. I hated the Mk.I's when they were around, especially the non-corridor types, and avoided travelling in them like the plague. Yet they make very attractive models. I will have at least one Mk.I suburban in due course, spurred on by this thread...

[31A]

Just spotted the responses to this thread!

 

I'm in the midst of doing a couple of SLOs myself - I went for 31A's earlier version of sealing the centre compartment and opening out the droplight to 'lavvy' size, but used the Replica Mk1 lavvy window, trimmed to size, which has the ventilator moulded in place. 

 

 

 

Why didn't I think of that?!

 

I have most of the various Mk1 detailing etches (MJT, Southern Pride, etc) and don't recall the ventilator on any of those, sadly.

 

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.  One avenue not explored yet is the etch produced once upon a time by PC Models to accompany their (short lived?) Mark 1 coach kits; mainly because they're not easily available!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

What is interesting about these models is that the bogies have a cut-out at the outer end, and the floor is recessed above the bogies, which makes it easy to fit a Symoba close-coupling unit.

Debated how to set up my fixed sets for close coupling, and have settled on sprung buffers and screwlinks within the sets. The buffer faces have to be greased for reliable running, which I find very pleasing.

 

Isn't life weird. I hated the Mk.I's when they were around, especially the non-corridor types, and avoided travelling in them like the plague. Yet they make very attractive models. I will have at least one Mk.I suburban in due course, spurred on by this thread...

For those of us on the KX suburban routes, there was often no alternative short of moving house or not using the railway to travel to and from the City. You could render one in 'final' condition before the delights of 25kV units saw them marched off. The rusted out door bottoms to direct a blast of winter air around the ankles a characteristic feature. I imagine it was the road salt trodden in by the walking freight that accelerated the body corrosion in this location.