Ticket Prices - Why is Further Cheaper?

[PrestburyJack]

Can anyone who works in the rail industry please explain why the journey from Coventry to Bournemouth via Euston and Waterloo on a particular Saturday morning in March could (when I looked last night) be purchased on the internet for only £17.80, for 2 x senior railcard single tickets, yet the same journey from just Waterloo to Bournemouth, with identical passengers, using the same train from Waterloo, was £23.80 just for this journey - and this was for 1st class, which was actually cheaper than 2nd class?

[AMJ]

It depends upon when you purchase the tickets.  Advanced singles can often be cheaper than discounted ones with rail cards. 

 

Example is Leeds to K+ EC can be got for £13 a friend with staff discount gets it for £25.  Difference is open single for him and limited to a single train for the other.

[PrestburyJack]

Both journeys are using the 'Cross Country Trains' website. Both are for 'Advance Singles' valid on specified train only.

 

The journey from Coventry to Euston and Waterloo to Bournemouth has now gone up to £23.10 for 2 seniors, but this is still cheaper than the journey Waterloo to Bournemouth, which is £23.80 1st class and £26.40 2nd class  , using the same train (0835 WAT - BMH).

[cornelius]

My local station to London Victoria - £55.80 return peak time.

 

My local station to Aldershot (via Clapham Junction) - £30.10 return peak time for approximately 45 mins extra journey. 

 

Plus £5.60 for a return Clapham - Vic I'm sure I shouldn't possibly consider getting a split ticket next time I need to go to London...

[Kenton]

They all look staggeringly CHEAP to me. I agree it doesn't seem to make any sense - so if I were you I'd book it quick before it goes up any more.

[mjkerr]

Could you elaborate about the specific journeys
Date, then specific trains and the TOC for each leg

For specific ticket journey lengths, the cost per mile is always less for longer journeys
In general this is simply due to the way the routing points are applied
So for example if you travel within one set of routing points the fare is one tier
Add a second set of routing points and the fare is two tiers combined together
Add a third set of routing points and the fare becomes three tiers combined together, and so on
Hence why a fare like Kings Cross to Aberdeen is also fairly similar to stations within the Aberdeen routing points, or a similar tier (such Perth, Crianlarich, and so on)

[sub39h]

it's all a con to me. i'm in my final year of 16-25 railcard ownership (or at least I would be if I hadn't returned to university) but if I were to arrive to King's Cross to take a trip back home to Leeds off peak without an advance ticket purchased some 6 weeks in advance the round trip would actually work out cheaper (and take about the same amount of time door to door) if I'd driven in my A3 2.0T (petrol). that's even with my 1/3 discount. plus if I drive at least I know I'd get a seat! 

[PrestburyJack]

Possibly because Waterloo - Bournemouth is a busy commuter route so SWT set the fares at "commuter prices"  - Coventry - Bournemouth via Waterloo is set by VWC ( iassume) and the Waterloo - Bournemouth leg is classed as "and connections" so VWC may not be too bothered about the fare on that bit  (cynical)

. Also gonig via London must make a simple journey very hard and a lot longer.

 

Hi Mickey,

 

That sounds like a good explanation.

 

I agree that via London would seem to be harder and longer, but as Coventry to London only takes 1 hour with VWC, and the direct journey with XC has a bus journey between Didcot and Winchester due to engineering works on the weekend in question, the journey via London is only 14 minutes longer!

 

And the cheapest ticket with XC is £53 for 2 x senior railcards as opposed to £23 for the same via London. Suddenly via London makes a lot of sense.

[PrestburyJack]

They all look staggeringly CHEAP to me. I agree it doesn't seem to make any sense - so if I were you I'd book it quick before it goes up any more.

 

Cheaper than the petrol, and far easier for 2 nearly 80 year olds to let someone else do the driving - Booked!

[pondy]

As a railway enthusiast I would much rather travel by train but I just can't afford it. To get any decent prices you have to be a financial expert and also Mystic Meg to know what you are doing in 3 months time. I don't know what I'm doing tommorow. Last time I looked it was £10 just to park the car at Peterborough and yet it is allways full by 9am. How do these people afford it? Add to that dear old Dr beeching has torn up half the routes so on a daily basis I now drive along the trackbed of the Peterborough to Northampton line (The Oundle bypass).

[Jim Martin]

Might the OP's answer be that whether a journey counts as "peak time" or not is determined by its start time? 08:35 ex-Waterloo is probably a peak time train; but presumably you'd be leaving Coventry at 07:00 at the latest, which might be off-peak at the weekend?

 

Just a guess: I know nowt about SWT's fare structure and not much about Virgin's beyond Euston-Lime Street (and their very broad definition of the evening peak period). It seems to work that way on a lot of routes I use, though.

 

Jim

[scorpion]

fares are complicated, you have to accept that fact, then you can look for something that fits your needs, if you don't want to look then you pay more, if you won't plan in advance it will cost more

 

thats how it works, and within these rules you can take advantage of good deals or pay the price of flexibility

 

perhaps the rules don't suit everyone but they work for me

[sub39h]

fares are complicated, you have to accept that fact, then you can look for something that fits your needs, if you don't want to look then you pay more, if you won't plan in advance it will cost more

 

thats how it works, and within these rules you can take advantage of good deals or pay the price of flexibility

 

perhaps the rules don't suit everyone but they work for me

 

i feel that as trains are PUBLIC transport, being able to find reasonable fares to suit the PUBLIC should be the way it works. it should also not be more expensive than driving, otherwise what's the point?

 

i feel that most people would not be able to plan their journey up to 3 months in advance to pay reasonable fares, and two members above have voiced words to that effect besides me. There have also been news reports on it and all sorts. 

 

my mum recalled recently that shortly after the BR days she took me, my sister and my cousin to London and the train fare cost £50 for all of us return from Leeds. that wouldn't pay for an adult return ticket anymore. the fact that 4 people could travel 15 or so years ago for less than one person can travel now is absurd, especially when you consider that the rolling stock and infrastructure is all basically the same as it was back then!

[Banger Blue]

It's not just trains, book a flight (example) to Australia with BA which is pretty much direct and you would pay a hefty sum.

 

A bit of research into alternate routes and carriers and you can make some substantial savings, fair enough you may end up on a 1940's vintage DC3 in the depths of Uzbekistan, sharing the cabin with a herd of goats but its 1/4 of the price ( and a bit of adventure to go with it!)

 

:)

[Banger Blue]

i feel that as trains are PUBLIC transport, being able to find reasonable fares to suit the PUBLIC should be the way it works. it should also not be more expensive than driving, otherwise what's the point?

 

i feel that most people would not be able to plan their journey up to 3 months in advance to pay reasonable fares, and two members above have voiced words to that effect besides me. There have also been news reports on it and all sorts. 

 

my mum recalled recently that shortly after the BR days she took me, my sister and my cousin to London and the train fare cost £50 for all of us return from Leeds. that wouldn't pay for an adult return ticket anymore. the fact that 4 people could travel 15 or so years ago for less than one person can travel now is absurd, especially when you consider that the rolling stock and infrastructure is all basically the same as it was back then!

Now back to reality!

[sub39h]

haha i live in the real world, i just wish ticket prices lived here with me! 

[Banger Blue]

PUBLIC TRANSPORT

= transport utilised by the public in general

=transport to move members of the public (mass transit?)

 

doesn't mean it has to be free, cheap or affordable! It would be bloody ace if it could be.

[scorpion]

this IS the real world

 

i use bus and car for work, car for running around but i get lots of long  train trips in as well, i plan ahead and get some great prices

 

mix and match, don't be a slave to one mode of transport

[Banger Blue]

CHALLENGE! ( no advance booking)

 

i) walk up (rail)fare on the day from your nearest station to Edinburgh.

 

ii) walk up (air)fare on the day from your nearest airport to Edinburgh.

 

iii) walk up (taxi)fare on the day to Edinburgh.

 

(If you live near Edinburgh, then choose London as your destination)

 

Post your findings here!

[sub39h]

PUBLIC TRANSPORT

= transport utilised by the public in general

=transport to move members of the public (mass transit?)

 

doesn't mean it has to be free, cheap or affordable! It would be bloody ace if it could be.

 

being called public transport means that it should be reasonably affordable to members of the public. it should also be convenient to the public (which does not just mean that the journey should be convenient, but every aspect from station location to ticket purchase at sensible prices). 

 

i argue that ticket prices are not affordable AND convenient. you either inconvenience yourself for an affordable ticket, or you have a convenient ticket at an exorbitant price. case in point:

 

as i mentioned i'm a student. my easter break starts this thursday. i am heading home, and have to book a ticket arriving into Leeds at 00.10 in order to get the cheapest fare. i booked my ticket 2 weeks ago, so three weeks before travel. in the case of my return journey, it was cheaper to buy another advance single than it was a return. so that ticket was booked one month in advance. i am inconvenienced because i arrive so late. my family are inconvenienced because the buses to my house will have stopped running by the time i walk to the bus stop, so someone has to collect me or i have to take a taxi (which would count as part of my "journey fare", if you will). 

 

a good friend of mine at uni has now announced that he wants to celebrate his b'day 2 days before my return journey. i can't refund my ticket, so i can't come as i can't afford to make two trips, especially at 2 weeks notice (!). and through all that i'm still paying £40 for my trip with a railcard. so i am now inconvenienced by not-so-cheap advance ticket. to have had an open ticket would have cost 50% more. 

 

additionally, as it is mass transport, it is in some respect designed to keep cars off the road. as i already mentioned, if i were to rock up to the station and pay the standard off peak fare at the time of travel, it would be about the same price as me travelling on my own in my car which only makes about 38mpg on a long run. and i run my car exclusively on V-Power. additionally, in my case once you factored in the trip to KGX and travel from Leeds Station to my home the journey time would be about the same once you take into account the inevitable late arrival. that really is a sorry state of affairs because there is almost no incentive to take the train. if there's more than one of you, i'd imagine almost any long distance journey would be cheaper in even a less than average mpg car. 

 

i wouldn't actually mind all that much if, for example, the trains were all modern, clean, you had a seat and they kept to time. almost none of those things apply on a lot of the routes i travel. so why are we paying so much? where does the money go? in the specific case of the ECML it doesn't go on new stock. and as East Coast is now run by the government again, why are we paying more than when GNER or NXEC ran the show? so they can rebrand all the trains AGAIN for no reason?

 

also in response to your challenge, my air fare from Heathrow would be £140ish, which is travelling at peak times by British Airways. same train at the same time would be about double without a railcard for the same journey by train and would take 3 times as long. (i have not included my tube fare as I have a Zone 1 - 2 travelcard which I purchase anyway, but it would cost me about a total of £3 extra to get from the edge of Zone 2 to Heathrow and back. the bus would be free if i were so inclined.)

[96701]

If trains are too expensive and not run at the times that people want them, why all the accusations of overcrowding?

[Gwiwer]

Ticket pricing is a minefield.  For most fares there is aregualted formula by which the various operators are reimbursed and in some cases they might receive some of your fare despite having not actually carried you at all!  It sounsd like disorganised madness but it keeps a lot of people in work.  In doing that it also keeps regulated and walk-up fares in particular among the highest in Europe.  Most users most of the time might suggest they get the service they pay for (modern and often frequent  transport on well-maintained and among the safest infrastructure in the World) but when it goesa awry there are tears before bedtime. 

 

There are all sorts of anomalies and spliiting a journey wil often throw some up and offer a cheapr combination of fares than a throughout booking.  The onlny requirement in order to do this is that your booked train(s) must stop at the station where the split occurs.  It is not permitted to break a journey at, for example, Tackley, if your train runs non-stop from Leamington Spa to Reading or is routed via Cheltenham.

 

I have nejoyed the challenge of locating the cheapest fares for my own and friends' travel and can still find £5 fares between London and the Sussex coast on many trains.  I also managed to purchase a Penzance - Brighton single from Southern priced at £18 and using only FGW trains!  FGW asked no less than £82 for the same ticket

[Kenton]

 

my mum recalled recently that shortly after the BR days she took me, my sister and my cousin to London and the train fare cost £50 for all of us return from Leeds. that wouldn't pay for an adult return ticket anymore. the fact that 4 people could travel 15 or so years ago for less than one person can travel now is absurd, especially when you consider that the rolling stock and infrastructure is all basically the same as it was back then!

Come on let's be realistic here and compare like with like. What else was cheaper in the mid-90's. Salaries and prices are all much higher now than then by a factor of far more than 4 times.

 

Logically pricing is all about availability and demand. So if there are spaces/near empty trains then the price should be less, if they are packed then the price should be high. This happens all over business (not just transport). I still think some of the examples given above are incredibly cheap (inconvenient maybe) but cheap when compared to the alternatives.

 

As for public transport, some people would not be happy even if it was free to them and provided a door to door service at all times of the day and night. The railways are not a public service. They are businesses that need to make a profit on the money invested to provide a service for the majority of customers at a reasonable price and at a reasonable time.

[Bernard Lamb]

Hemel Hempstead to Portsmouth return. Cheapest ticket I can find is £10 each way on a particular day(s).

Hemel Hempstead to Clapham Junction on the same train comes up with £13 each way.

Ironically Southern, who operate the service, flags up a dearer cheapest ticket than The Train Line.

No wonder people are baffled.

Bernard

[Gwiwer]

Try Tesco.  Lots of potatoes on offer.  Some are one price and some another but all are potatoes.  Some are one price sold loose and another price sold bagged.  You can pay the price you choose for the potatoes you prefer.  The lower the price the less choice you have.

 

Same with rail fares.  Though I admit it doesn't actually explain anything!  Logic and railways are uncomfortable bed-fellows.