'Failed' preservation projects

[russ p]

If it had been built it would have been a town of hills, though I've never seen any on plans I would have thought the place would have had a cliff lift or two

[MarkC]

Another 'What if', isn't it? Of course, the driving force of the SWR was Mr Hammond of Raven Hall - it was he who insisted on Ravenscar Tunnel, so that he couldn't see the trains from his home, It should have been just a cutting, of course... He passed away not long after the railway opened, and ISTR that he was the driving force behind the proposed development too. His demise was probably the tipping point for development to cease?

 

Let's hope that 2051 will live again.

[russ p]

If 2051 was to run again it would require new tyres as ford messed with them ,an engine rebuild and fitting with vac brake.

One wonders if Ravenscar had developed into a sizable town if the tunnel would have been opened out

[MarkC]

If 2051 was to run again it would require new tyres as ford messed with them ,an engine rebuild and fitting with vac brake.

One wonders if Ravenscar had developed into a sizable town if the tunnel would have been opened out

New tyres are pretty much 'routine' these days, of course...if you have the funds...

 

Regarding the tunnel, I do know that there was at least one plan to open it out, but a war stopped it from happening...

[russ p]

Modern tyres aren't too good really as they are South African. Shunters don't often require tyres in preservation.

I hadn't realised the planned to open out the tunnel, last time I was in it was about 13 years ago whilst at a wedding reception at the hall. Had a torch in one hand and a flute of champagne in the other!!

[MarkC]

Modern tyres aren't too good really as they are South African. Shunters don't often require tyres in preservation.

I hadn't realised the planned to open out the tunnel, last time I was in it was about 13 years ago whilst at a wedding reception at the hall. Had a torch in one hand and a flute of champagne in the other!!

Classy! Urban exploring with champers!!! Yes, there are several references to plans for opening it out.

 

That's a good point about tyres - sadly you're limited for suppliers these days

[russ p]

Cheers, the only time I've been underground at a wedding!

[rockershovel]

my understanding is that NYMR chose the Newtondale route because it was more reakistic

[Nearholmer]

I come late to this, but in case it hadn't been said before, the OPs question could be answered by a diligent trawl through the "county" books published by the Industrial Railway Society ........ If a locomotive was ever to stable on the Moon for a minute, there would be an IRS member jotting down the details for posterity!

 

The "county" books even record locos stored in people's garden sheds and garages for a few weeks,while in transit.

 

K

[Steve K]

There's a growing collection in the bushes of Wishaw, at Andrew Goodman's haulage yard.  47484 and at least a pair of Class 08s, a lattice footbridge span, Class 58 cab and more is all squirrelled away there.

 

 

I think most of them are owned by various groups working on them the 58 cabs belong to the class 58 group so will probably move to Barrow Hill in the future, 47484 is owned by the Pioneer diesle group (also based at Barrow Hill).

 

Allelys at Studley has 37023 under restoration in the yard as well.

 

I know it's not good posting practice to quote something 3 years old, but I didn't think that my post was worthy of its own thread. There was a "Diesels in Wishaw" thread on the old RMWeb, as it happens, but not a dedicated one here.

 

Anyhow, I still drive past the yard in question fairly frequently, but have always felt it would be a bit cheeky just to drive in and have a nose around. However, recently, signs have gone up near Rye Farm saying "Cafe now open", so today, I had an excuse to stop by. As it happens, I got there after the cafe had shut, but didn't have to go any distance out of my way to see that there are still plenty of railway bits and bobs on site. The aforementioned 47484 is still there, along with any number of 08s, but I didn't dig around too much without permission, so I have no idea whether the French 20s or anything else is still on site. Perhaps another visit is in order (when the cafe is open, perhaps!), but in the meantime, here are a couple of snaps (well, one snap plus a zoomed-in section to try to retain some detail of the original):

 

 

[rogerzilla]

Are diesels easier to restore than steam engines?  In some cases there might still be manufacturer support for the prime mover (these things often had a very long production run in ships and stationary generators) but after that, it's a lot harder to make the precision parts needed in an internal combustion engine, particularly things like turbochargers.  Then there are control electronics, which can be quite complicated on later diesels.  At least traction motors can probably be rewound by any competent electrical engineers.

 

The main benefit of a diesel in preservation, as far as I can see, is that you don't need a boiler certificate every 7-10 years so you can keep using it until it breaks down.

[MarkC]

Are diesels easier to restore than steam engines?  In some cases there might still be manufacturer support for the prime mover (these things often had a very long production run in ships and stationary generators) but after that, it's a lot harder to make the precision parts needed in an internal combustion engine, particularly things like turbochargers.  Then there are control electronics, which can be quite complicated on later diesels.  At least traction motors can probably be rewound by any competent electrical engineers.

 

The main benefit of a diesel in preservation, as far as I can see, is that you don't need a boiler certificate every 7-10 years so you can keep using it until it breaks down.

Once you can't get 'off the shelf' components like bearings, injector parts or fuel pump parts for diesel engines, or as you correctly say, turbochargers, you either have to have very deep pockets to get parts made to order, modify what you have to use different equipment which IS available, re-engine your locomotive, park it up as a static exhibit or simply weigh it in. Harsh, but that's the reality of it. Electrics are not quite as tricky, unless it's things like specialised control circuitry as you also identify .Steam locomotives, on the other hand, are pretty primitive machines by comparison. I've not yet seen anyone wanting to build an old design diesel prime mover from scratch, never mind a complete locomotive, (even the Baby Deltic and LMS 10000 projects are using some body and chassis parts from other classes) whereas we have many new steam locomotives either already running or being built with all newly made parts.

[298]

Interesting synopsis, and all very much "horses for courses". The problem with either is you're taking them beyond their design life, and where old age problems such as corrosion would normally have been taken care of at an expensive and thorough works overhaul, it never seems to totally eradicate the dreaded tin worm that can still rear its ugly head.

[StephenB]

I can't see any reference to the proposal to save the Kingsbridge branch in Devon in the early 1960s - a great shame like so many other failed schemes.

 

Stephen

[jjb1970]

Once you can't get 'off the shelf' components like bearings, injector parts or fuel pump parts for diesel engines, or as you correctly say, turbochargers, you either have to have very deep pockets to get parts made to order, modify what you have to use different equipment which IS available, re-engine your locomotive, park it up as a static exhibit or simply weigh it in. Harsh, but that's the reality of it. Electrics are not quite as tricky, unless it's things like specialised control circuitry as you also identify .Steam locomotives, on the other hand, are pretty primitive machines by comparison. I've not yet seen anyone wanting to build an old design diesel prime mover from scratch, never mind a complete locomotive, (even the Baby Deltic and LMS 10000 projects are using some body and chassis parts from other classes) whereas we have many new steam locomotives either already running or being built with all newly made parts.

I think as time goes on more diesels will effectively become static exhibits as even if you have the money to pay a company to reverse engineer critical components there are some components for which you'd struggle to find a supplier willing to take the job on, for others the price would be prohibitive regardless of how deep pockets are and in general the expected reliability and durability of such parts is unlikely to be great. Most of the engines in preserved diesel locomotives were obsolete decades ago, one of the main reasons the RN ended up getting rid of their Deltic engines was that they were unable to support them in service anymore.

[jjb1970]

As an indication, when I worked in classification I had occasion to do design appraisals on certain engines from a similar era to most of our preserved diesel locomotives (those great lakers do go on for a long time....) and in most cases the manufacturers had no information on the engines as they'd binned many of the files and documents years ago on the not unreasonable basis of why waste space and effort maintaining details of engines that old. Or the engines had been built by a licensee who'd amended the original design and who had gone defunct decades ago. Not to mention that the design and manufacture of many components was always outsourced to sub-contractors. The diesel engine interests of Sulzer became New Sulzer Diesel then was bought by Wartsila and is now Winterthus Gas & Diesel, add into that the added layer of license builders and sub-contractors and finding the information to manufacture some components is painful. And unless you know certain design assumptions and calculations then trying to reverse engineer by just measuring an old bit is unlikely to end well.

[Barry O]

Cosworth do parts for Deltic engines and have reverse engineered one so they could do complete new builds...at a price.

 

Obsolescence of metal parts is less of a problem now due to scanning, 3D printing etc. BAe kept the VC10 fleet flying using 3D printed parts so the preservation my cement should be able to source mechanical parts for a long time.

[jamie92208]

my cement should be able to source mechanical parts for a long time.

Auto correct strikes again though cast concrete engine parts sounds interesting.

 

Jamie

[zephyrman]

 

Here is my model of the Sadler Vectarail coach, Colin Ashby's used on the Meon Valley, was supposed to be used on the Cowes to Newport line. I have since fitted lights to it. Very difficult to figure out the final model as it had so many modifications on the prototype. Such as different roof pods and side trims.

[Anglian]

Would Peak Rail Buxton fit the criteria? As I understand it they began at Buxton with a view to working south only to up sticks entirely and relocate to Matlock and Darley Dale.

 

The Colne Valley will be a contender soon as they have been given they marching orders.

 

(The line that would have been a tourist pull had it been saved is the line that ran from Bury St Edmunds, through Lavenham and Long Melford to Sudbury.)

[Londontram]

The Colne Valley will be a contender soon as they have been given they marching orders.

 

Did I miss something? I was under the impression that the Colne valley had been given a chance to apply for lottery funding to buy the site and track bed, the land owner giving them an extension to get the bid in place.

[28XX]

Cosworth do parts for Deltic engines and have reverse engineered one so they could do complete new builds...at a price.

 

Obsolescence of metal parts is less of a problem now due to scanning, 3D printing etc. BAe kept the VC10 fleet flying using 3D printed parts so the preservation my cement should be able to source mechanical parts for a long time.

Presumably, the technique is to 3D print a pattern, from which a casting can be made?

[RJS1977]

As an indication, when I worked in classification I had occasion to do design appraisals on certain engines from a similar era to most of our preserved diesel locomotives (those great lakers do go on for a long time....) and in most cases the manufacturers had no information on the engines as they'd binned many of the files and documents years ago on the not unreasonable basis of why waste space and effort maintaining details of engines that old. Or the engines had been built by a licensee who'd amended the original design and who had gone defunct decades ago. Not to mention that the design and manufacture of many components was always outsourced to sub-contractors. The diesel engine interests of Sulzer became New Sulzer Diesel then was bought by Wartsila and is now Winterthus Gas & Diesel, add into that the added layer of license builders and sub-contractors and finding the information to manufacture some components is painful. And unless you know certain design assumptions and calculations then trying to reverse engineer by just measuring an old bit is unlikely to end well.

 

And those who had the knowledge to work on the engines in the past are now either dead or retired and no longer wish to work on them - one of the reasons XH558 was grounded last year.

[phil-b259]

And those who had the knowledge to work on the engines in the past are now either dead or retired and no longer wish to work on them - one of the reasons XH558 was grounded last year.

 

Erm, not strictly true - it was the manufacturer of the planes key components which decided at a cooperate level  they couldn't continue to provide professional support - without which the CAA will NOT let ANY jet engined aircraft from taking to the sky, however skilled and committed the individuals involved are.

 

Events at last years Shoreham airshow will only have reinforced the CAAs view - put it this way if Boeing suddenly decided to cease cooperate support of the 747 as soon as the last one rolled off the production line, then the entire fleet would automatically be grounded.

[RJS1977]

Erm, not strictly true - it was the manufacturer of the planes key components which decided at a cooperate level  they couldn't continue to provide professional support - without which the CAA will NOT let ANY jet engined aircraft from taking to the sky, however skilled and committed the individuals involved are.

 

 

Though part of the reason the manufacturers withdrew support was that the few people left who knew how to support them wanted to retire - indeed some had already been coming out of retirement specifically to work on XH558 and were reaching the point where they no longer felt able to.