BR(W) Steam Loco Livery 1948-64

[Miss Prism]

Reflecting the growing popularity of the immediate post-nationalisation era, I've done a draft page on steam loco liveries. Comments and brickbats welcome on or offlist.

[Karhedron]

Hello,

 

A good summary. I have an addition to suggest.

 

The GWR painted relatively few classes of tender locos in mixed traffic livery. Only the Counties, Halls and the 10 BR built Manors received lined black livery en-mass. Everything from the Granges on downwards were painted plain black in general (although there were a few exceptions for most classes that got lined by accident).

[The Stationmaster]

Miss P you might care to flesh out some dates -

 

The first 1956 instruction regarding application of green livery (either lined on certain mainline passenger engines or unlined on smaller passenger and mixed traffic engines) was issued in November 1956.

 

The next instruction, issued on 25 january 1957 stated that all engines painted green were to be lined out.

 

I don't know when Caerphilly started painting reversing rods red on tender engines but an instruction was issued by Swindon in November 1958 to stop the practice

 

According to Eric Mountford the practice of painting numberplates red was introduced in November 1949 and ceased in April 1952 (although I believe there might have been exceptions to the latter date, particularly if an engine was overhauled at a non WR works).

 

The application of painted GWR shed codes on the framing valance was officially discontinued by an instruction dated 10 January 1950.

 

All above dates are taken from Eric Mountford's book and in my view represent 'good quality' information as in my experience Eric was meticulous in recording information and dates (which led to an interesting debate at one of the GW 150 planning meetings when he and I demanded that one of the locos planned to go into the Swindon exhibition would have to be renumbered - but that's another story).

[Miss Prism]

Only the Counties, Halls and the 10 BR built Manors received lined black livery en-mass.

 

Thanks Karhedron, that puts the mixed traffic livery application into a much better perspective. I'm surprised all the Counties got the livery, having been built so shortly beforehand, but maybe they were going through the works during that time, although the double-chimneying exercise didn't start in earnest until green was back in vogue. For the Halls, I had the impression that comparatively few (given the size of the class) actually received the mixed-traffic livery, but are you saying they all/most got it?

 

Mike - many thanks for those dates. I did wonder when the red background for plates was rescinded, but I had not thought it was as early as 1952, and it makes models portrayed as such with the post-1957 totem somewhat suspect. Btw, I love Swindon's 1958 instruction to Caerphilly to stop painting reversing rods red!!!

 

[Karhedron]

Thanks Karhedron, that puts the mixed traffic livery application into a much better perspective. I'm surprised all the Counties got the livery, having been built so shortly beforehand, but maybe they were going through the works during that time, although the double-chimneying exercise didn't start in earnest until green was back in vogue. For the Halls, I had the impression that comparatively few (given the size of the class) actually received the mixed-traffic livery, but are you saying they all/most got it?

The Counties were (I think) classified as 6MT under BR and hence lined black was the designated livery. At that time, green was only for class 7 locos.

 

I think that the majority of Halls received lined MT black. Photos from the early 50s are much thinner on the ground than those from 1960 onwards (by which time the Halls had turned green again). However all the photos I have seen from the "early crest" period show halls in lined MT black. I am pretty sure the entire class was black although someone may have evidence to prove me wrong. The only exceptions may have been engines that were repainted between the reintroduction of green and the appearence of the "late" crest.

[The Stationmaster]

I believe there was one 'Modified Hall' which fairly certainly never got black livery as a pal of mine phot'd at Exeter in the mid 1950s still in full GWR livery plus smokebox numberplate.  This would suggest to me that possibly some examples of late GWR built locos probably hung on to green before getting it again under the 1956 changes.  And although I don't know when it was previously shopped for heavy repair but, according to a reliably dated photo 6116 survived until at least May 1956 in GWR livery - albeit slightly grubby.

Edited April 16, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Karhedron]

I believe there was one 'Modified Hall' which fairly certainly never got black livery as a pal of mine phot'd at Exeter in the mid 1950s still in full GER livery plus smokebox numberplate.

Just goes to show there is an exception to every rule.

 

I have just thought of another. 7804 "Baydon Manor" was painted unlined green in 1948 for piloting expresses over the south Devon banks. It had no emblem at all on its tender.

 

It kept this livery for some time although it appears to have received plain black by the mid 50s when it was transferred to south Wales. My guess is that it received plain black livery along with the BR built Manors between 1952 and 1954 when they went through Swindon for blastpipe modifications.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

The Counties were (I think) classified as 6MT under BR and hence lined black was the designated livery. At that time, green was only for class 7 locos.

On the BR(WR), green was not limited to class 7, the Stars (5P) received lined green livery and of course the Kings went from blue to green from 1951.

 

In the 1949 -1956 period BR(WR) loco repaints followed the paint colour specified by British Railways but lining seems only to have been applied to locos which would have been lined by the GWR. So from 1949 -56 Halls were black and lined but 41xx/51xx/61xx and 43xx/53xx etc. which should have been lined out were generally plain black. Of course one or two did get the "official" lining out but they were rare exceptions.

 

By the way, I understood that the black lined "mixed traffic" livery was more correctly named "mixed traffic and secondary passenger"

 

Ian

Edited April 16, 2013 by OFFTHE RAILS

[Miss Prism]

Thankyou, Ian. My fog is beginning to rise on this treacherous "mixed traffic and secondary passenger" matter.

 

At least we can console ourselves that it was all Derby's fault...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Miss Prism

[Il Grifone]

The mixed traffic was actually LNWR livery and included a cream line*. The red backed plates were anathema to the GWR and swiftly replaced by black. (I can't recall ever seeing one despite a passion for railways from an early age.)

 

The liveries were only decided on in mid 1948 - August IIRC. Some time ago there was some discussion on the correct livery for some LNER pacific (Blue Peter IIRC) and whether LNER livery was correct. As she appeared in early 1948. presumably she would have carried LNER green livery with the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS'.

 

* There is a thread on this elsewhere. We should be grateful that at least GWR livery was chosen for class 6/7 Express Passenger locos - we got LNWR for mixed traffic and CR for class 8.

[coachmann]

You haven't mentioned the Kings getting BR standard mid blue livery until 1952. 

 

From January 1948 locos continued to be painted in GWR postwar livery until instructed otherwise. Only the very first County recieved full lining out. Thereafter lining was ommited below the running plate on all repaints entitled to full livery.

 

The use of GWR style insignia spelling full British Railways was never to my knowledge used in conjunction with LNWR lining. The insignia was a temporary measure, a last fling for the GWR if you like. When BR lining was applied, locos often went into traffic minus totems if they were unnavailable.

 

The Counties were mixed traffic engines like the Halls and Granges and so they were allocated mixed traffic lining ala LNW. I didnt know some 4-6-0's retained GW green through to 1956 and so missed out on BR MT livery. Have you a reference?

 

When the initial locos were painted BR green in 1956 they got the early pre-1956 totems. Valances were always green on green livery in BR days.

 

Locos with cast irons chimneys usually had their brass safety valve bonnets painted over, but the paint was occasionally removed at its local shed. Some copper cap chimneyson lesser engines were also painted black but again were bulled up locally.

 

Beware of bogus photos depicting locos carrying GWR initials into the mid 1950's. While it may be undoubtedly true, some photographers went over initials showing under black paintwork with chalk.

Edited April 16, 2013 by coachmann

[steve fay]

I think southall had a fondness for painting there cab side number plates red, Of course that was not official. There are a lot of pictures that show this but it seems to be from around 1960 on.

A bit like landore and there silver buffers and polished smoke door straps.

[Castle]

The use of GWR style insignia spelling full British Railways was never to my knowledge used in conjunction with LNWR lining. The insignia was a temporary measure, a last fling for the GWR if you like. When BR lining was applied, locos often went into traffic minus totems if they were unavailable.

Hi All,

 

Coach kind of beat me to it here but there are quite a few pictures in the very early BR days, depicting locos with a lack of tender or tank insignia. There is a picture of such hallowed machines as a certain No. 4079 with a plain but lined (if you see what I mean) tender in the (I think) colour rail collection. The reason i was given is that there were never any transfers produced for the Egyptian Serif BRITISH RAILWAYS insignia and therefore it was sign written where used. This meant if an engine was needed back in service quick, it went without.

 

I hope this adds to the picture!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

Really!!??  Methinks your finger missed the W and hit the E, with dire consequences for all things Western!!   

You're right Paul - although by odd coincidence the chap who took the photo I am referring to was off the GE (but not of Pre-Group vintage himself).  I shall now amend my original post so that this little discussion looks like an aberration ... tehehe 

(And if I remember I will ask him to bring said photo along to SWAGday on the 28th)

 

 

Edited April 16, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Il Grifone]

You haven't mentioned the Kings getting BR standard mid blue livery until 1952. 

 

One tends to gloss over this aberration! Was it not Sir Felix Pole who was quoted as saying he was glad to have gone blind to be spared the sight!

 

(I did mention CR livery* for class 8 in passing - to include the inferior products of lesser railways!)

 

*The exact shade of this (Prussian) blue had apparently something to do with white lead being on free issue from Caledonian stores......)

Edited April 16, 2013 by Il Grifone

[Miss Prism]

I appreciate mention of the one-off peculiarities, but my focus at this stage on the GWR Modelling page is to attempt address the general situation. I've got several issues to sort out - in no particular order:

- Blue. I have mentioned the blue livery, Coach, but I always understood this was only in 1948. So I don't quite understand your "You haven't mentioned the Kings getting BR standard mid blue livery until 1952." I have seen il Grifone's recent message, but am no wiser.  Ok, have now understood the Kings began to revert to green from 1951. Btw, which Kings were involved?

- Valance colour: for green-bodied locos, I concede this was widespread, and perhaps universal, but if so why do I keep coming across mistakes like this? Were green valances applicable throughout the whole BR era? Or were Prairies a complete law unto themselves?

- White sans-serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering: was this exclusively associated with the experimental apple-green?

- Lining colour for mixed-traffic: I'm confused about the reference to cream - this doesn't look cream to me. Btw, what is the width of the lighter outer line - 1/2", 5/8"? Were there BR regional variations in this colour?

- Manors: I'm still confused, Karhedron - your message #2 ("the 10 BR built Manors received lined black") seems to contradict your later message #8 ("My guess is that it [7804] received plain black livery along with the BR built Manors").

- The 'mixed traffic and secondary passenger' livery application remains confusing, it looks as though the power class of the loco is not much help, otherwise 2251 (3MT) would be included. LMS 2P's got the MT livery, but the Dukedogs, also 2P, did not. It's not clear whether any of the surviving Saints (4P) got MT livery, apart from 'Hall' 2925. I find Ian's formulation above (#9) provides a better way forward.

- 'The repaint window': I've probably put too much stress on the possibility of some 'MT-eligible' locos not getting it. Whilst Counties were in and out of the works like yo-yos for redraughting exercises, and are known to have got the MT livery, the mechanical condition of the Halls remained largely static. Apart from the 1949-50 batch of new Modified Halls (which would presumably all have got the MT livery on build), it seems plausible to me that, notwithstanding a quickie application of a lion & wheel, the pertinent works question for the pre-1949-built locos would have been "Well, this loco is eligible for MT livery, but does it really need to be repainted?" (See Mike's #6 above.)

Edited April 17, 2013 by Miss Prism

[OFFTHE RAILS]

- The 'mixed traffic and secondary passenger' livery application remains confusing, it looks as though the power class of the loco is not much help, otherwise 2251 (3MT) would be included. LMS 2P's got the MT livery, but the Dukedogs, also 2P, did not. It's not clear whether any of the surviving Saints (4P) got MT livery, apart from 'Hall' 2925. I find Ian's formulation above (#9) provides a better way forward.

I'm looking at "Portraits Of Great Western 4-6-0s" by Bryan Holden & Kenneth Leech in which Saints 2920, 2945, 2949, 2937 are pictured in black with mixed traffic lining and the early BR emblem. This again tends to support my generalisation that if the locos were lined under the GWR then the BR(WR) lined them in the '49 to '56 period.

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

One point worth noting is that (reference the green valance) any painting done in the preservation era is only as good a guide as the depth, or lack, of research by those who specified the details for, or carried out, the repaint.  The worst example of this is the incorrect colour route availability disc on 'City of Truro' which appeared in blue after the most recent NRM sponsored repaint when it should in fact be red.  The big joke is that when the loco appeared in faux BR lined black the disc was, correctly, red!

[Il Grifone]

<p>Not only was the blue colour wrong, but she shouldn't have had a disc at all with the red frame livery. IIRC they were introduced around 1920.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>AFAIK all the Kings received the blue livery (I read somewhere that it was the only class to be so disfigured in its entirety and elsewhere that the A4s also were all in BR blue - less of a change here, even if IMHO garter blue is a much more attractive shade).</p>

<p> </p>

<p>With regard to the valance colour, I can remember at the time being unsure as to the correct green or black for my Kitmaster 61xx. In practice the colour was hidden under a layer of grime.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I recall having a picture of a 58xx in lined black with sans serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS', but needless to say I can't find it!</p>

<p> </p>

<p>EDIT</p>

<p> </p>

<p>The cream line was against the grey and tended to merge with it (1/8" thick IIRC but I'll track down the thread). (The photo is a preserved example and the liveries should be treated with caution.)</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I've dug out the books I have with contemporary colour photos (few in number - photography was a expensive hobby back then and colour required a mortgage!).</p>

<p> </p>

<p>6960 10/63 lined green - valence grime (appears black) - polished brass and copper</p>

<p>4566 03/60 lined green (ferret) green (from lining) but appears black</p>

<p>1008 1952 lined black bonnet not painted</p>

<p>6129 ?60s  unlined green (LH ferret) valance grime but backing of top cab step definitely green</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Other pictures are unclear - the only evidence I could find concerning the earlier query as to tank tops was IOM locos - black - not a great help! I remember black, but the area was a natural collecting place for muck.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>For what it's worth Coronations appear to have had valences in body colour whether blue, green or maroon.</p>

<p>BR standards and rebuilt Bulleid pacifics appear to have been green.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>From  an undated b/w photo, 1440 was in unlined black (cycling lion) with red plates (grey of course, assumed red).</p>

<p> </p>

<p>From 'Trains Illustrated' 10-11/1949</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Great Western Green</p>

<p> </p>

<p>So the standard green of British Railways turns out at last to be, not the <em>(omis) a</em>pple green, but the much darker Great Western shade. <img alt=":blum:" class="bbc_emoticon" src="http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/public/style_emoticons/default/blum2.gif" title=":blum:" /></p>

<p><em>(omis)</em> the only difference from past practice being the valance below the running-board, now to be painted <strong>green</strong> instead of the previous reddish-brown (?). The G.W.R. colour looks exceedingly well on every engine on which we have seen it until now,<em> (omis)</em>  <strong>(obviously!)</strong></p>

<p>The article continues with observation that the standard blue is reminiscent of the old Caledonian livery, but is darker (see my earlier comment!)</p>

<p> </p>

<p>A photo of the 'new' 1500 in the same issue shows black backed plates. At least one of this class bore mixed traffic livery for empty stock working at Paddington.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>From 'British Railways in Colour' Colin Boocock</p>

<p> </p>

<p>On steam locomotives from mid-1948, four different liveries were adopted by British Railways as follows:</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Class 8P:                                    Blue with black and white lining</p>

<p>Classes 7P, 6P and 5P:              Brunswick green with black and orange lining</p>

<p>Mixed traffic engines,                  Black with red,cream and grey lining</p>

<p>and Classes 4P down</p>

<p>to 0P:</p>

<p>Freight engines                          Plain black</p>

<p> </p>

<p>After a short time the blue was replaced by Brunswick green. In the late 1950s and 1960s the exact distribution of the liveries and lining among the power groups was frequently changed.                    </p>

Edited April 17, 2013 by Il Grifone

[Karhedron]

- Manors: I'm still confused, Karhedron - your message #2 ("the 10 BR built Manors received lined black") seems to contradict your later message #8 ("My guess is that it [7804] received plain black livery along with the BR built Manors").

Hello, sorry for causing confusion. As far as I have been able to determine, the Manors were painted as follows.

 

7800 - 7803 and 7805-7819.

These were painted in unlined black with early crest after nationalisation.

 

7804

Baydon Manor received unlined green with no emblem on the tender in 1948 for pilot duties over the south Devon banks. Between 1952 and 1954 it received unlined black with early crest (probably at the same time as the blastpipe modifications).

 

7820 - 7829

The BR-built Manors were painted in lined MT black with the early crest when new. Between 1952 and 1954 they received unlined black with early crest (probably at the same time as the blastpipe modifications).

 

So by the end of 1954, the entire class seems to have been in unlined black with the early crest. From 1957 onwards all the Manors started to receive lined green with the late crest.

- The 'mixed traffic and secondary passenger' livery application remains confusing, it looks as though the power class of the loco is not much help, otherwise 2251 (3MT) would be included. LMS 2P's got the MT livery, but the Dukedogs, also 2P, did not. It's not clear whether any of the surviving Saints (4P) got MT livery, apart from 'Hall' 2925. I find Ian's formulation above (#9) provides a better way forward.

It is not clear how and why the WR deviated from the official policy on lining. As far as I can tell, the WR painted locos plain black that would have been plain green under the GWR. Hence many mixed-traffic classes like Granges receiving unlined livery.

 

You are right, I had forgotten about the Saints. I am pretty sure they received lined MT livery. I have certainly seen photos of Saint David in lined black.

[coachmann]

With respect, anyone who has to ask these questions are ill-equipped to write a study on BR Loco Liveries. I had an article published on BR liveries in the 1970 or 80s model press and this prompted the creation of the BR study group. In otherwords, the information has been out there for many years and the only new thing that can be added is confusion.

 

Just to clarify, do not confuse the 1948 experimental liveries with those adopted in 1949. Dark blue, often called Prussian Blue, was not adopted as a standard colour. The shade adopted was lighter (probably similar to that finally adopted by the CR).

 

Whereas it is said BR adopted GWR livery, many changes were made to the detail. Green replaced black on valances. Belpaire fireboxes were not lined out. The orange horizontal line along the bottom of splasher sides only appeared on ex GWR and ex SR locos. Green was supposed to replace black on splasher tops, however, in practice this did vary and black was occasionally found on some W.Region, E. Region and S. Region locos but never on the LM Region.

 

The cream referred to on (LNWR) mixed traffic lining was 1/8th inch wide and was adjacent to and on the inside of a 5/8" wide grey line.

 

Drawing ones own conclusions such as  "Well, this loco is eligible for MT livery, but does it really need to be repainted?" is not factual evidence. David Jenkinson was a friend of mine as you may know, and he would never say "yes"  to a question put forward on livery if there was any shadow of doubt in his mind. He often discussed liveries with me simply because I painted his locos and carraiges as well as for the NRM, and some of the details we discussed later found their way into revised volumes of livery books. He and Bob Essery made sure of their facts before going into print. I put forward that it is model painters who so often pick up on minute detail when they have to deliberately paint a line somewhere.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I recall having a picture of a 58xx in lined black with sans serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS', but needless to say I can't find it!

I think one appeared in Casserley & Asher's book listing the locos which came into BR. I noticed it yesterday after starting to read this thread. It was definitely lined, but may have been early emblem.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

I recall having a picture of a 58xx in lined black with sans serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS', but needless to say I can't find it!

I think you mean the photo of 5816 in H.C. Casserley's "Steam Locomotives Of British Railways". The "BRITISH RAILWAYS" lettering is sans serif but not Gill Sans...." Another very provisional effort.

This book is very useful for those interested in early BR liveries. Amongst the other photos there's small prairie 4526 in black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in small Gill Sans, 2-8-2T 7225 in GWR green with BRITISH RAILWAYS in GW Egyptian font and panniers 2089 and 8738 in the latter livery.

Ian

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

The White Gill Sans BRITISH RAILWAYS was also on a number (if not most?) of the Blue Kings until the introduction of the lion and wheel. The Griffon is right in that it was the only complete class to receive the Blue but I disagree with everyone's assessment of it - it think No. 6023 looks very smart indeed in person. Cue the howls of derision and horror... Don't you just love a livery debate?!

 

I think that there is another list of repainted Saints in GWW - I will look it up tonight unless someone else gets there first...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited April 17, 2013 by Castle

[TheSignalEngineer]

I think you mean the photo of 5816 in H.C. Casserley's "Steam Locomotives Of British Railways". The "BRITISH RAILWAYS" lettering is sans serif but not Gill Sans...." Another very provisional effort.

This book is very useful for those interested in early BR liveries. Amongst the other photos there's small prairie 4526 in black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in small Gill Sans, 2-8-2T 7225 in GWR green with BRITISH RAILWAYS in GW Egyptian font and panniers 2089 and 8738 in the latter livery.

Ian

Thats the one, some very interesting shots of all regions in there, pity they're not dated.