BR(W) Steam Loco Livery 1948-64

[Miss Prism]

Found it now. It was about the Hornby model. 

 

Gissa link then!

[Rugd1022]

Just re-aquainting myself with this thread and reading the comments about unlined Halls - I've dug out the two 'GW Steam In Cornwall' volumes of the faithful Bradford Barton albums, each of which has a very nice shot of 5972 at Truro, one is dated 19/5/56 but it looks as though both photos were taken on the same day from the footbridge at the west end of the station... the loco, despite being quite grubby is clearly in mixed traffic lined black but the tender looks to be in plain black and still bears the Egyptian 'British Railways' lettering under the grime. It would certainly make for an interesting model.

 

The first volume also has a nice shot of 4906 at St.Erth dated April '52, it appears to be in a plain unlined livery all over with no company markings at all on the tender, whether it's GWR green or black is difficult to tell. It does have a smokebox numberplate though and the front buffer beam is devoid of the earlier GWR applied number.

[Dr Al]

Hi,

 

I have a spare GW Manor and quite fancy doing it out in BR Lined black. I've seen plenty of pictures of preserved locos in this livery, however I've not found any in BR service days? Evidently this livery wasn't around for long, but I'm surprised there appear to be no pictures of locos in service.

 

In particular 7827 or 7823 are locos I'm considering modelling - these should have been built and painted first in this livery - can any folks confirm this, or point me to any pics of these locos so adorned?

 

Thanks,
Alan

[Karhedron]

I believe that 7820-29 were all painted in lined black from new and retained this livery until they underwent blastpipe modifications. I don't have any pictures of 7827 or 7823 but here is a good one of 7820 Dinmore Manor in lined black. It can be a little hard to tell but I am pretty sure that is the original pattern chimney rather than the later tall, narrow one.

 

[OnTheBranchline]

I have a question. For the BR Brunswick green, why was it decided to not line-out the firebox?

[Karhedron]

Not really sure. The LMS didn't usually line out the fireboxes so it may be they took the lead from there.

[Il Grifone]

964

It would seem logical. The early BR period did represent an LMS take over.

[Keith George]

What would have been the most common livery on 2-6-0s  53xx/63xx class in the late 1960s.?

 

Keith.

[asmay2002]

What would have been the most common livery on 2-6-0s  53xx/63xx class in the late 1960s.?

 

Keith.

By the late 1960s they had all been withdrawn/scrapped.

[Keith George]

By the late 1960s they had all been withdrawn/scrapped.

 

Oops! I meant late 1950s.

 

Keith

[Marshall5]

By the late 50's many of the 53xx had already been withdrawn so that by the beginning of 1961 only 15 were left.  if you have a year or loco in mind I'll see what I can dig out but off hand 5399 was still in black/early crest at withdrawal whilst 5322 was in lined green with the late crest.  The 63xx were expected to last a bit longer so more were shopped and turned out in lined green IIRC.

Ray.

[Keith George]

By the late 50's many of the 53xx had already been withdrawn so that by the beginning of 1961 only 15 were left.  if you have a year or loco in mind I'll see what I can dig out but off hand 5399 was still in black/early crest at withdrawal whilst 5322 was in lined green with the late crest.  The 63xx were expected to last a bit longer so more were shopped and turned out in lined green IIRC.

Ray.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Was there any in unlined black or unlined green in this timescale.?

 

Say's he, who's fingers and hands are past being capable of lining a loco.!

 

Keith.

[Marshall5]

IIRC all the black ones were unlined some with the post '57 crest but others still had the old crest at withdrawal.  According to Lionheart 5311 was in unlined green with the old crest.   Several of the 63xx were in unlined green with the new crest - I can look up some numbers if you want. Is your loco a 53xx (with the large radius motion plate) or a 63xx (5384 onwards) with the smaller plate?

Cheers,

Ray.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Marshall5

[Keith George]

IIRC all the black ones were unlined some with the post '57 crest but others still had the old crest at withdrawal.  According to Lionheart 5311 was in unlined green with the old crest.   Several of the 63xx were in unlined green with the new crest - I can look up some numbers if you want. Is your loco a 53xx (with the large radius motion plate) or a 63xx (5380 onwards) with the smaller plate?

Cheers,

Ray.

 

I think its a 53xx.

 

Keith.

[Karhedron]

 According to Lionheart 5311 was in unlined green with the old crest. 

I have seen a nice shot of it in this condition at Barmouth in the late 50s looking practically ex-works.

[colinjamesporter]

Were any of the small praries 45xx, 4575 ever out shopped in unlined green like their larger counterparts?

[Marshall5]

Were any of the small praries 45xx, 4575 ever out shopped in unlined green like their larger counterparts?

Not in B.R. days AFAIK.

Ray.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

D1072 disagrees in his earlier post

 

Posted 14 June 2010 - 22:51

I've had a search through several books and compiled a list of West Country based 45XX's - most of these photos are from 1957-62.
The information is incomplete due to a combination black and white photos, dirty locos or distant shots.
Note - no lined black locos noted. Bachmann have released 4557 and Lima 5574. 2213 also lined, likely to have all been c. 1949/50 when the livery was new and WR tried to see what they could get away with - such as fully lined crimson & cream autocoaches!
NB: This is not an inclusive list of all 83 division locos.

KEY
Tanks: O origional (lots of rivets!), R new section at bottom, rivited, W new section, welded, w new section (lower height: most tank repairs were up to the middle of the numberplate)
2 = 2 steps on front of tank (otherwise 1)

Livery: B black, B/ lined black, G green, G/ lined green, ? uncertain
Locos with early crest almost certainly black

Crest: E early, large, e early, small, L late, large, s late, small

Other: H High safety valve cover, N GW buffer beam number [4549/91/92 apparently painted at Launceston shed c. 1960]

Number/Tanks/Livery/Crest/notes
So 5544 O2G/L has tanks which have not been repaired by plating (all rivets are visible), 2 steps on the front of tanks, Green (lined) with a large late crest, and low safety valve cover.

4508 O ? inside steam pipes [May 57]
4526 OBE
4540 OBE
4542 OBE [58]
4549 wBE N inside steam pipes [Oct 1960]
4552 O?s
4553 O?E
4554 O?? (i.e. filthy or dificult to tell from b/w photo))
4555 RBE
4559
4561 OG/s
4563 W
4564 WG/s *numbeplate higher than standard on bunker
4565 WG/s *tank on drivers side appears rivited, but has had extra plating added
4566 OG/s *last loco overhauled at Newton Abbot c. 1959: anything still black at this point unlikely to have received green
4567 OG/s
4568 OBE *photo 1955 so may have become green
4569 ?G/L
4570 OG/s
4571 ? dirty
4574 WG/s *welded lower tank plates post 5/57

4583 R?E [1956, prob. black]
4587 OBE clean, may have stayed black
4591 O??
4592 O?E [1956]

5500 O?E
5502 O?E [1956]
5505 O
5508 W or R
5509 OBe
5511 RBE [sept 60]
5518 w?E at withdrawl
5523 W
5525 2 patches to front botton corner of tak, firemans side
5530 O?E
5531 OG/L
5532 WorR
5541 OG/s seems to have recived high safety valve cover c. march 61
5544 O2G/L
5545 O2
5546 O1 note there is not a complete batch with 2 steps on the front of the tanks
5557 ?2G/L
5558 WorR2
5560 WorR2 *auto fitted
5564 W
5567 O?E [1955]
5568 R
5569 WorR2
5572 O
5573 WG/s I can't make my mind up if it has a high safety valve cover, June 61 - but it is certainly the only polished brass one!

Note I've not mentioned buffers which would mostly {all?} have been parallel by this time.
No doubt if I had been at Plymouth in the 1950's (rather than 20 years later) I'd have some notes. My introduction was to 4555 at Buckfastleigh - it definately had a polished cover! Hope this is useful!

​

[colinjamesporter]

Not in B.R. days AFAIK.

Ray.

Thanks for the answer. I thought that might be the case.

Best wishes

Colin

[Karhedron]

Were any of the small praries 45xx, 4575 ever out shopped in unlined green like their larger counterparts?

Yes, it was not too uncommon. I have photos of 4569 at Bodmin Road in unlined green with an early crest. Also 5557 at Par in 1960 in unlined green with late crest.

[phil_sutters]

I have just come across four photos by Alan Newman, a friend and colleague of my father, that were stuck into Dad's loco spotting log book for August 1956 to August 1957. They were taken at Swindon on 1.4.1957. The most interesting one includes 8472 outshopped in black with an early BR totem.

The prints are only 75x45mm and they were scanned at 600px

There are another three from an earlier visit at http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/41112242

Edited February 12, 2016 by phil_sutters

[Hal Nail]

On 14/11/2015 at 22:11, Marshall5 said:

By the late 50's many of the 53xx had already been withdrawn so that by the beginning of 1961 only 15 were left.  if you have a year or loco in mind I'll see what I can dig out but off hand 5399 was still in black/early crest at withdrawal whilst 5322 was in lined green with the late crest.  The 63xx were expected to last a bit longer so more were shopped and turned out in lined green IIRC.

Ray.

Revisiting this. For some time I have been puzzling over a couple of locos that ended up at Barnstaple 5336 and 5376. I have a photo in June '58 of 5336 in green late crest and 5376 got early lined green in '57 with a small early crest.

 

I've seen much later photos of both after 1960 with tenders with the large early crest Whilst you can never be certain under grot, i'm pretty sure that the locos are unlined black. You can see the boiler bands and cleaner patches and there is absolutely no hint of lining and the shade doesnt look remotely green.

 

Is it possible a handful of the locos lasting that long reverted to black having had lined green previously? Maybe at the same time economy green was coming in but they've used black where only a black tender was available?

 

eg Western Steam in Colour, Ballantine, page 20. 5336 on the turntable in Feb 64.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Hal Nail
added reference

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/09/2022 at 13:20, Hal Nail said:

Revisiting this. For some time I have been puzzling over a couple of locos that ended up at Barnstaple 5336 and 5376. I have a photo in June '58 of 5336 in green late crest and 5376 got early lined green in '57 with a small early crest.

 

I've seen much later photos of both after 1960 with tenders with the large early crest Whilst you can never be certain under grot, i'm pretty sure that the locos are unlined black. You can see the boiler bands and cleaner patches and there is absolutely no hint of lining and the shade doesnt look remotely green.

 

Is it possible a handful of the locos lasting that long reverted to black having had lined green previously? Maybe at the same time economy green was coming in but they've used black where only a black tender was available?

 

eg Western Steam in Colour, Ballantine, page 20. 5336 on the turntable in Feb 64.

 

 

Judging by the bottom corner of the cab side sheet I think 5336 in that photo on page 20 is in green - but very dirty green.  The tender could well be in black but might be in green - it is far too filthy to tell what colour lurks underneath the muck.  

 

It is of course quite likely that the tender had been swapped for all sorts of reasons.  Taunton had an allocation of around half a dozen or more 43XX  over the years and at  times some of them might well have been out of traffic (for example I took a photo of one of them stood aside without a pony truck on Taunton shed in the early '60s).  If a tender had a hot box or other problem with a 'good' engine then a tender swap would take place - not at all unusual.  Similarly running sheds by then were making a habit of swapping good tenders off an engine going to works and replacing it with one they didn't want because it was increasingly the case that the engine would be coming back (Reading did it several times with its famous 'GWR' tender, see page 42 in the same book where it is attached to what was, I think, the third engine it had been paired).

 

Another problem was Swindon's painting method which was based on getting a quick turnround so there was one coat of undercoat onto the old paint, then the top coat then - I think - probably a finishing coat of varnish; all done in A Shop, no paint shop..  And Swindon's paint on engines had a habit of not only being thin but wearing away or becoming easy to wear away with a bit of carefully targetted cleaning.  But equally if a depot had hung on to a 'good' tender it could go a long while between works visits on lesser classes of engine running lower mileages.

 

One other thing of course - although I doubt it applies to Hugh Ballantyne - is just how relu iable the date is on published photos.  There are plenty of caption errors and it can be very easy to get dates wrong unless the original photographer was not only meticulous with his notes but those notes also got to whoever was writinga caption.

[Miss Prism]

Clean tender, dirty loco. (6361 at Aberdare, 12 August 1956.)

 

 

[Hal Nail]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The tender could well be in black but might be in green - it is far too filthy to tell what colour lurks underneath the muck.  

 

These two have clearly had tender swaps as the crest has reverted to the earlier one. I think more than likely black in that photo tho, as very few tenders would be green large early crest at any point, let alone in the 60s (the two locos werent allocated to Barnstaple till later on).

 

Now you've said it, could be persuaded the loco is green though!

Edited September 22, 2022 by Hal Nail