BR(W) Steam Loco Livery 1948-64

[Il Grifone]

I don't know where all the <p> and other rubbish has come from (conflict between RMweb software and Firefox?), but please excuse and ignore.

[Il Grifone]

I think one appeared in Casserley & Asher's book listing the locos which came into BR. I noticed it yesterday after starting to read this thread. It was definitely lined, but may have been early emblem.

 

Many thanks!  Indeed it is 'Steam locomotives of British Railways' H. C. Casserley

 

The loco is 5816 and has sans serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS'

 

There are many examples of this in GWR Egyptian, but, of course, it is not possible to tell the livery colour from monochrome photos.

 

There are photos of 1505 and 8773 in lined black. (The latter could be green, but has the early lion.)

[Miss Prism]

My apologies, Coach, for infuriating you so. I will admit to being somewhat out of my comfort zone for the BR period, but I hope I'm making rapid progress. I have updated the draft page, taking into account most of the comments so far, although I've yet to reflect Ian's and David's exotica in #24 and #28, which go to show just how many variations there are in this period.
 
I was aware of the two blues, the darker experimental and the lighter non-experimental, and have segregated them accordingly. (They are to my mind, though, all a short-lived aberration. Sorry, Castle!)
 
I have clarified the MT lining information (thanks, we were actually talking at cross-purposes about the colours earlier on):

 

 
Reference Castle's "The White Gill Sans BRITISH RAILWAYS was also on a number (if not most?) of the Blue Kings until the introduction of the lion and wheel", I believe this is illustrated here?.
 
I hope the page is now in a reasonable state. It is easily amendable to reflect further comment. A significant remaining issue is splasher top colour, but I'm currently inclined to think these were kept in black, at least generally. (The green Counties excepted of course.) I'm also currently inclined to think tops of side tanks continued to be in black. (There weren't any responses to my previous thread on that matter.)
 

Drawing ones own conclusions such as  "Well, this loco is eligible for MT livery, but does it really need to be repainted?" is not factual evidence.

 

Perhaps I had not expressed myself well enough. There is a tendency amongst some modellers to assume that a majority of locos, coaches and wagons change 'overnight' on a change of livery policy. Model manufacturers like to exploit this notion to maximise their livery variations. The reality was, for any era, actual livery changes tended to be gradual, and especially for goods and secondary locos, could take several or in some cases many years to come into effect. Railways painted locos only to protect the metal substructure. Labour shortages were acute during WWII, and didn't get much better during the '50s and '60s. If, on a minor works visit, the external condition was considered satisfactory, I doubt whether the latest contemporary livery would be applied as a matter of course, apart from a probable change into new insignia. Just look at the 42/52xx tanks rebuilt as 72xx, their tanks were not reliveried, and that was a substantial rebuild. Or Bachmann's decision not go ahead with their post-war green 3203. Shiny ex-works pictures are one thing, but the general reality of steam railways after WWII and up to the end of steam, express passenger locos and stock excepted, was one of unrelenting grime.

[The Stationmaster]

WR painting practice at works by the late 1950s was only to completely repaint locos following a Heavy Overhaul (that being a particular repair classification), paintwork would usually be cleaned (if time and staff availability permitted) and touched up as necessary at lesser category overhauls and repairs.

[Castle]

Hi Miss P,

 

A short lived aberration? I don't know...

 

It is fast coming up that No. 6023 has been in blue in preservation as long as it was in service so I will give you short lived...

 

Right, that picture is exactly the sort of thing I'm waffling about. Spot on. Your and Stationmaster Mike's comments about 'just because it was eligible for a livery' is very true. This is the reason I chose to model this era - because of the BLEND of different styles of livery, not because I wanted to do only Early BR liveries. A mix of late GWR - even on the coaches with GWR insignia 'painted out' - and early BR, up to the lion and wheel is my turf of choice because it speaks so much about this era of great change on the railways. No. 3822 was reported in a GWR livery in the very early 1950s for example and No. 6697 was wearing Egyptian Serif at the same time. lovely stuff! And yes, I will be robing the collectors market of a Hornby blue No. 6023 for detailing and improvement purposes!

 

Mike's comment about being careful about preservation liveries is true too - especially with things like rolling stock (double especially freight wagons) where the evidence simply isn't there to say yes or no to a particular scheme. Sometimes careful sanding back can reveal stuff before overhaul but not always. One member of the C&W gang is drooling over attacking No. 1363s tanks with a sanding disc to cut back through the history when we start replacing the metal there so I will post results if anyone is interested but that won't be for a while yet.

 

The Saints listed in GWW as having received lined black are Nos. 2920/6/7/34/7/45/7/9/54 from February 1949 and none lasted long enough to go lined green again. The rest were not recorded as being repainted before withdrawal or were simply withdrawn. There is also mention of 49XX No.6990 which remained lined green throughout and a number of 'should have been unlined black' that were lined black. These are Nos. 1503-5/4702/8762-4/71/3.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited April 17, 2013 by Castle

[The Stationmaster]

Going slightly OT (apologies) Castle's remarks about 1363 reminds me of something I saw at Didcot many years ago on, if memory serves me right, the 72XX - which had been treated to liberal applications of paint stripper which had removed a whole succession of paint jobs and in the process revealed - all at once - the position/outline of a whole succession of different insignia/side tank lettering.  Very illuminating as some of the positions of the BR insignia varied.

 

The really awkward question is what the merry heck did I do with the photos I took?

[Rugd1022]

Going slightly OT (apologies) Castle's remarks about 1363 reminds me of something I saw at Didcot many years ago on, if memory serves me right, the 72XX - which had been treated to liberal applications of paint stripper which had removed a whole succession of paint jobs and in the process revealed - all at once - the position/outline of a whole succession of different insignia/side tank lettering.  Very illuminating as some of the positions of the BR insignia varied.

 

The really awkward question is what the merry heck did I do with the photos I took?

 

There are numerous published shots of all kinds of locos in the BR period showing such variations 'under the paint' Mike, and going back to your post number #30, there are plenty of shots of locos parked up outside A-Shop having been 'soled and heeled', ie: just having their smokeboxes touched up etc.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

There are numerous published shots of all kinds of locos in the BR period showing such variations 'under the paint' Mike,

Where? Please let us know the sources.

Ian

[Coach bogie]

My personal favourite exception to the rule - and this is 1964!

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50256734@N05/5702915274/

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited April 18, 2013 by Coach bogie

[Karhedron]

Ah but all is not as it appears! Frilsham Manor is not really in gwr livery. The loco is in normal lined be green, as can be seen in other photos from the period. The tender is in fact from mogul 6324 which was scrapped in 1962. By this point the tender itself had become something of a pet for retaining its GWR lettering. Whether the BR paint had flaked off or it had escaped repainting, I do not know.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Karhedron

[Coach bogie]

There are several others I am aware of. 4628,8792,6733,9710, 7428 all still carrying GWR by late 50's early 60's. 4628 went for scrap still with GWR in 1964.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Rugd1022]

Where? Please let us know the sources.

Ian

 

All over the place Ian! I don't have any to hand but they are about... it went on right into the BR blue period too, I can recall seeing no end of 08s, 20s, 25s, 40s, 47s etc where the old numbers / logos had been painted over and new transfers applied on top, but off kilter slightly. Well into the '70s, on some locos you could see traces of their original pre-Tops numbers showing through the blue top coats.

[Miss Prism]

Were Granges painted in MT lined black?

 

After 1956, did any Collett Goods revert to green?

[buffalo]

...After 1956, did any Collett Goods revert to green?

Yes, most of the ones that operated on the Somerset and Dorset in the early sixties were green. No doubt others too, but these are the only ones I have colour photos of.

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

Presumably lined green?

[buffalo]

Yes.

[Karhedron]

 

Were Granges painted in MT lined black?

No, almost the entire class were painted in plain black. 2 examples were accidentally painted in lined MT black. I am not 100% sure but I think that they were  6809 and 6819.

 

 

After 1956, did any Collett Goods revert to green?

Yes some did, both lined and unlined. Some remained black until the end though.

[The Stationmaster]

Presumably lined green?

I think both (or rather 'either') depending on when they were repainted.  Some were definitely painted in lined green and I'm reasonably sure some were unlined once the economy version version came in ('reasonably sure' because I contemporaneously painted a Wills kit built model in unlined green having picked out one that didn't need lining).

 

The WR green effectively went through several phases - the early ones were as I've already posted further up the thread but at some later stage there was a reversion to unlined livery (on lesser locos that received green) reputedly in order to save money.  Some 61XX definitely unlined at this stage in the story as I believe did some 2251s and 56XX - sorry but I can't date it and it would need contemporaneous reports in the likes of 'The Railway Observer' to provide the dates.

[Kris]

Picking up on an old thread...

 

Were there any unmodified halls in an unlined livery during 1956/57?

[steve fay]

Wouldn't have thought so, manors & granges plain black but not halls. Although there might have been an exception

Lined black then lined green

[Miss Prism]

Were there any unmodified halls in an unlined livery during 1956/57?

 

ISTR another thread discussing this, but I can't find it now.

[Kris]

Must have missed that one Miss P.

[Karhedron]

I will concur with the above, I have not seen any photos of unlined Halls in the mid 50s. The majority of the class went from lined MT black to lined WR green. Whilst it is not possible to rule out the possibility of an unlined example, I think it is unlikely and it would need photographic proof.

 

The only time the Halls received unlined livery was during WW2 and shortly afterwards. I suspect they would have been repainted before 1956/57. I have seen photos of some of the oil burning Halls in unlined GWR livery in the late 40s. There is a fairly widely available shot of 3950 "Garth Hall" in unlined green with GWR on the tender just after conversion to oil firing.

 

http://sfxarchive.net/rs/rs623.jpg

Edited May 13, 2014 by Karhedron

[Kris]

ISTR another thread discussing this, but I can't find it now.

 

Found it now. It was about the Hornby model. 

[Kris]

I will concur with the above, I have not seen any photos of unlined Halls in the mid 50s. The majority of the class went from lined MT black to lined WR green. Whilst it is not possible to rule out the possibility of an unlined example, I think it is unlikely and it would need photographic proof.

 

The only time the Halls received unlined livery was during WW2 and shortly afterwards. I suspect they would have been repainted before 1956/57. I have seen photos of some of the oil burning Halls in unlined GWR livery in the late 40s. There is a fairly widely available shot of 3950 "Garth Hall" in unlined green with GWR on the tender just after conversion to oil firing.

 

http://sfxarchive.net/rs/rs623.jpg

I suspect that you're correct. I was just wondering about an easy repainting project. Lining a loco comes under the heading of a real faff.