RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 24, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2014 Morning Jim, Just caught up after a few days off - usual fascinating record of the railways today! They do seem to be getting their 'money's worth' out of you on those recent runs, it is a tough schedule. We had the RHTT pass the bottom of our garden on Wednesday, hauled by a 37 and a 57, the latter being if anything, filthier than the Colas 37 shown in the links above. It was plain yellow below the dirt so probably network rail? Hi Jock, DRS have the RHTT contract in East Anglia, so it'll be 57306, the last yellow 57/3, now in use with DRS. Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 24, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) couple from today dodgy iphone pic stupid speed sign!! a couple from whitacre junction, same location different height again compare that to the last one i took of a coal train there back in 2008!! the existing signal has been moved back from the junction by about 4 wagon lengths Edited October 24, 2014 by big jim 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2014 Very stupid speed sign Jim - I wouldn't fancy going off through that pointwork at 50mph in any sort of passenger train I can think of. Someone needs their b*m given a good kicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 24, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2014 Well i was making comment on it being in the way of my picture but looking at it again i see what you mean, hadn't noticed the error til now!! My trainee can do an RT3185 tomorrow for it 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted October 24, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) The Stationmaster, on 24 Oct 2014 - 16:45, said:The Stationmaster, on 24 Oct 2014 - 16:45, said:Very stupid speed sign Jim - I wouldn't fancy going off through that pointwork at 50mph in any sort of passenger train I can think of. Someone needs their b*m given a good kicking. I cant for the life of me work out what's going on there either! That looks like a 20 mph ladder from where im sitting. I believe what its actually saying is that IF you are joining the road in the centre of the picture via the crossover, you are between the commencement and termination of the ESR on that road. Its a grey area though. Ive put up a few ESR boards in my career but that one has me scratching my head! Thinking about it another way, if a train was to join that line (second from left) via the 20 mph crossover, how else could it be signed to tell the driver he was entering an ESR of 30 over 50?? Edited October 24, 2014 by Gary H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM42 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Gary I suspect the 30/50 applies to the line on the far left and I would imagine there is a warning board with arrow a bit further back I agree it is a stupid sign for both looking odd and spoiling the picture. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 24, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) its got me thinking now!! i get a warning for the 30/50 TSR on the down fast (ie coming towards the camera on the centre empty line) which starts roughly where the back of the train is below the signal gantry (you can just make out the back of the TSR board) that continues past where i took the picture to pretty much the north of toton yard the puzzling bit is the crossover is 15mph as is the next one which is where i normally run round to get back onto my train and (as far as i know) trains cannot be signalled wrong direction onto the up line where the TSR is situated as there is no limit of shunt on that line or XF indication in the theatre box, there is certainly no T board in the wrong direction on the up on the rear of the TSR board and i'm damn sure there are no TSRs on the up fast either as i dont pass a T board there either i can see gary's logic that its telling the driver of a train coming from the right hand line he is joining a 30/50 but surely that would/should have a R board as well EDIT; sm42, the line to the far left of the picture is the up fast, there is another line futher left again, the up slow (former high level goods) which is one of the ways i go to ratcliffe from toton and i can confirm there are no TSRs on there at the moment, even if there were then the board would surely be after the pointwork, and the linespeed is only 45 anyway so it definatly doesnt apply to the slow the only thing worrying me now is that if there is a TSR on the up fast i've missed it everytime ive been to toton in the last 6 months, not that i'll even get upto 30 anyway after running round and clearing the crossovers, if there is one there then the warnings for it will be too far north for me to acknowledge as i only stay in 'station limits' as it were i'll have a look in the morning as its bugging me now one thing the advent of bidirectional signalling has certainly bought about a lot more "AWS does not apply" X cancellation boards as ESRs and TSRs have to be shown in both directions on each line, the line between wigston and leicester is a prime one at the moment, you get 5 AWS cancellation warnings in the space of about 1/2 mile (4 for various TSRs and a fixed one for the 30/50 aproaching leicester station Edited October 24, 2014 by big jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clogger Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 its got me thinking now!! i get a warning for the 30/50 TSR on the down fast (ie coming towards the camera on the centre empty line) which starts roughly where the back of the train is below the signal gantry (you can just make out the back of the TSR board) that continues past where i took the picture to pretty much the north of toton yard the puzzling bit is the crossover is 15mph as is the next one which is where i normally run round to get back onto my train and (as far as i know) trains cannot be signalled wrong direction onto the up line where the TSR is situated as there is no limit of shunt on that line or XF indication in the theatre box, there is certainly no T board in the wrong direction on the up on the rear of the TSR board i'll have a look in the morning! one thing the advent of bidirectional signalling has certainly bought about a lot more "AWS does not apply" X cancellation boards as ESRs and TSRs have to be shown in both directions on each line, the line between wigston and leicester is a prime one at the moment, you get 5 AWS cancellation warnings in the space of about 1/2 mile (4 for various TSRs and a fixed one for the 30/50 aproaching leicester station EDIT; sm42, the line to the far left of the picture is the up fast, there is another line futher left again, the up slow (former high level goods) which is one of the ways i go to ratcliffe from toton and i can confirm there are no TSRs on there at the moment, even if there were then the board would surely be after the pointwork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clogger Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Good Evening, Having just registered with RM Web a couple of days ago,can I just say that how much I enjoy your blog, it really is an eye opener and makes me realise that their is more to driving a train than I realised. Thanks again for taking the time to do it and keep up the good work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2014 I cant for the life of me work out what's going on there either! That looks like a 20 mph ladder from where im sitting. I believe what its actually saying is that IF you are joining the road in the centre of the picture via the crossover, you are between the commencement and termination of the ESR on that road. Its a grey area though. Ive put up a few ESR boards in my career but that one has me scratching my head! Thinking about it another way, if a train was to join that line (second from left) via the 20 mph crossover, how else could it be signed to tell the driver he was entering an ESR of 30 over 50?? Simple answer would be to put the board immediately in advance of the crossover (which as you say looks like a 20mph connection). The more I look at it the more I can't understand which line it applies to and I wonder if it is in fact on the wrong side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 24, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2014 Simple answer would be to put the board immediately in advance of the crossover (which as you say looks like a 20mph connection). The more I look at it the more I can't understand which line it applies to and I wonder if it is in fact on the wrong side? all will become clear tomorrow morning regards the crossovers thats another strange one, the first two nearest the camera (down goods to down fast and down fast to up fast) are 15mph and the one to take you on the slow (up fast to up slow) is 20mph (you can see the boards to the left of the picture) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a98087 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 The reasons that there's loads more "AWS does not apply boards " is simply because it's a matter of cost and simplicity. It considerably cheaper to install a sign than it is add some treadles, relays, power supply and suppressed magnets. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 25, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2014 Got to the bottom of the speed board conundrum, there is indeed a 30/50 TSR on the up fast that the board corresponds to so i recon that the board is missing an R 'reminder board' below the speeds The reason i'd not noticed the TSR is when we run round in toton, either on the fast or slow line we don't use the up fast at all and the warning for it is beyond the north end yard ladder, so again not somewhere i get to when running round. as for not seeing the commencement boards on the up fast, when we stop the train they are to the left if we're on the slow and the right if we're on the fast, both run rounds then involve us returning South light engine on the opposite side of the train to the warning board, as for not seeing the T board at the south end, after the run round we generally head off toward the slows so its 2 tracks over hence why it doesnt register as it does not apply to our line Hope that clears it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM42 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 If there is a set back move then I agree that and R board would be a sensible installation (though I don't think strictly specified in the rules) but then the sign should be at the signal that routes the train across (assuming this signal is between the warning and commencement board) and there should be an arrowed warning board somewhere further back if there is main signalled route across. On that basis not only is it an incomplete sign, it's also in the wrong place. This makes it even more stupid than before as if it were in the right place it wouldn't be in the picture Putting the sign after the crossover would mean drivers running on the affected line suddenly coming across a lonesome commencement board in the middle of a TSR with no reason to be there. Temporary speed restrictions are rarely simple affairs where there is more than one route I'm just glad I don't drive trains for a living. It makes my head hurt just thinkiing about this one. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 25, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2014 i can see what you are saying about the board being at the signal on the goods (which is on the gantry 1/4 way down my train), that makes sense however as my train is capable of doing a wrong direction move from the ground signal on the down fast to access the up fast then really that signal should have an arrowed warning board too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM42 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I was thinking about the ground signal in this case Jim. . The main signal would not need one as any train routed via that signal would already have passed the warning board and would be expecting the TSR and of course the driver would be familiar with the contents of the WON. However, the R board is not strictly correct as you are arriving (so I understand) mid point of the TSR rather than heading towards a commencement board more than 300yds ahead. Looks like someone's trying to do the right thing in a situation not covered in the rule book. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 25, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) I was thinking about the ground signal in this case Jim. . The main signal would not need one as any train routed via that signal would already have passed the warning board and would be expecting the TSR and of course the driver would be familiar with the contents of the WON well you'd think that wouldn't you but our run round move at the north end drops behind a GPL on the down fast where we changing ends and once clear head back the down fast and cross over to the goods (which is the line with the hooky board on), the warning board (and associated magnet) are still futher north than the 'change end' point so during a run round we dont encounter ANY advance warnings at all on the lines we use or indeed a reminder board at the north end change end point we do however pass beyond the warning boards for the right direction moves (the mainline one being a simple 30/50 double dot sign and the one on the slow the same but with the arrow pointing towards the up fast) but they are on adjacent lines the more we delve into this the wronger its beginning to look!! if i get a chance i'll do a track plan with the signals locations on and see what we come up with, i am however working away for the week now so i may struggle!! by the way, whats a WON? (that last bit is a joke!!) Edited October 25, 2014 by big jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM42 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 My head hurts now. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Positioned where it is and set out in the way it is that sign should read directly into a temporary speed restriction on a line which is to the left of the line to which the sign applies (and, obviously but worth saying, in a direction in which a train can make a running movement on that line). As there is no other sign present as far as the Rule is concerned that can only mean that it applies to a temporary restriction of speed on the line which is immediately to the left of the sign and it will also mean that somewhere in rear of it there will be an advance warning board. Rather more worryingly the sign can also be read as applying through the diverging pointwork - which is obviously a nonsense anda rather misleading one at that. If none of those things is correct then either a sign or signs is missing or this sign is in the wrong place. In reality in my view and taking into account the low speed of the crossover it would probably be clearer if a sign was placed immediately in advance of the crossover and sited on the left of the line to which it applies as there could then be no misunderstanding of or ambiguity in meaning. As I read it the Rule Book could provide for exactly that situation if it was read with some interpretation however as such thought nowadays seems to be discouraged we are left with this sort of ambiguity facing people on the ground (or in the driving cab). Edited October 25, 2014 by The Stationmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 26, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 Having a well deserved day off today but i've ended up doing railway things!! So far i've been to pendon and im just about to have a ride on the cholsley and wallingford railway! There is a steam loco on the front but this is shunting the stock out to release it from the station, more pics later 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 26, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 had a run to cholsley and back behind "northern gas works No1" a pleasant little trundle and the little loco worked quite hard on the final little climb into cholsley station the loco and coaches were decorated for the haloween weekend with some passengers dressed up too, i opted for the "casual clothes monster" look! interesting looking alco? in the yard at wallingford i did get more pics on the proper camera but im not home for a week now so they will have to wait, after i had a ride on the train i headed out and got a couple of pics of the train out on the line near cholsley i also set up the lens camera on the tripod for some pics but the battery went on it after i'd got the ones above enjoyed the look round pendon, only spent about 45mins there but loved what i saw (again) the bonus this time being madder valley was on display, last time i went in feb 2011 the area was being developed/refurbished so i never got to see it, they loop a dvd giving an overview of the layout which is a good idea as it walks you through the layout end to end, the commentary being by bob symes whos voice just grabs you from the first word, the model railway world's very own bernard cribbins!! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11B Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Looking at two of the diesel locos you have got shots of.... Is the railway sponsored by a famous Irish stout company? It does look to be a nice little line Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 26, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 Looking at two of the diesel locos you have got shots of.... Is the railway sponsored by a famous Irish stout company? It does look to be a nice little line Ian looking on the net the 08s are ex park royal brewery locos http://www.cholsey-wallingford-railway.com/Stocklist.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 looking on the net the 08s are ex park royal brewery locos http://www.cholsey-wallingford-railway.com/Stocklist.html In a rather odd series of events a former colleague of mine arranged much of the deal which got the two 350s to Guinness, and then some years later was instrumental in getting them from Guinness to the C&WR. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 26, 2014 interesting looking alco? in the yard at wallingford i did get more pics on the proper camera but im not home for a week now so they will have to wait, after i had a ride on the train i headed out and got a couple of pics of the train out on the line near cholsley The switcher is Alco S1 #803 built for use in the Steel Company of Wales. There were 5 of them and I think three still survive in the UK. Cheers, Mick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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