Pugsley Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I would worry though when the size of the rivets starts to become important...You mean it's not? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Of course it is! That doesn't mean that you shouldn't start to worry though. After all next you'll be worrying about which type of chassis bracing your LMS milk tank had or what sort of ladder fixing arrangement it has and that way lies the path to madness... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Of course it is! That doesn't mean that you shouldn't start to worry though. After all next you'll be worrying about which type of chassis bracing your LMS milk tank had or what sort of ladder fixing arrangement it has and that way lies the path to madness... And the Lunester Lounge? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 It might depend on what sort of rivet counter you want to be. The type that looks at another persons model and takes pleasure from telling them where they have gone wrong or the one that enjoys using his/her additional knowledge to make better models. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 And the Lunester Lounge? I don't think we need to worry about them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 And having become a rivet counter (of the more positive kind), do you then need to become a technique freak, so that you can apply your new found knowledge to your models? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyfox Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I find offering constructive advice a to correct an error (whatever the source) is usually welcome. It is a matter of using social skills. I'm also a proud follower of correct detailing (rivet counting if you wish, although this phrase is becoming increasingly defamatory in it's use against a certain type of modeller - shall we stoop to into the gutter with the 'anorak' calling brigade?). If it were not for those seeking perfection in their models by tirelessly raising standards then manufacturers would still be chucking out items akin the the quality of those 40 years ago. Continue to tip your new toy out of it's box onto your trainset without stopping to examine how prototypical it is at your peril! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) Oh dear more rivet counting . My personal view on modelling is to forget rivet counting and take a much more relaxed view. Liken it to an artist painting a picture, the extreme end of the spectrum is an impressionist painting. Personally that is taking things too far for my tast, something in between is fine and at the other end of the spectrum is perfect in all detail. That is a joy to behold when seen. Modelling is the same, in my view. My hero is the late Stanly Beeson, are his model accurate to last detail and rivet, no. Are they a very good impression of the prototype, absolutely. The same can be said of actual layout. enjoy models and layouts for what they are, always remembering the modeller in question is proud of his achievements and we all have different skill levels. I try to follow Mr Beesons ethos, in each build I try to improve on the previous one. One day I may come close to his skills, This is one of his builds. Edited July 7, 2013 by jazz 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Spot on, Ken. I agree that it is the impression that matters rather than exact numbers of rivets. I wonder if part of the secret of rivet counting is knowing which ones to count? For example, the vertical rivet lines on GWR tender and tank sides. What matters here in creating the impression is the spacing of the columns, not the numbers of rivets in each. Similarly for most long lines of rivets. However, there are some cases, often isolated clusters of rivets, where the exact number is essential to creating the impression. For example, on either side of any GWR smokebox door there is a pair of rivets that secure the bar through which the dart is inserted to lock the door. To me, those four rivets are an essential part of the 'face' of a GWR loco. Similarly, Most GWR tank bunker sides from about 1925 onwards have a little triangular cluster of three rivets, for what, I don't know, but they would look hopelessly wrong if there were two or four rivets. Nick 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I also recommend you get one of these: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazmanjack Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Why be a river counter when our 'prototypical' layouts we build usually succumb to selective compression... Cheers, Gary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyfox Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Why be a river counter when our 'prototypical' layouts we build usually succumb to selective compression... Cheers, Gary. Is the distance between the rails selective? What is wrong with wanting to create a model as near to the prototype as you can? If you want narrowed gauge, chunky wheels, wrong number, wrong livery, plastic lumps in point work, the 'elephant in the room' usually referred to as a tension lock coupling, then fine - get on with it and have a good time... ...my point is that there seems to be a constant knocking (on many threads on here) of modellers wishing to push a detailing boundary or two - name tagging such as 'rivet counters' (which I've never seen anyone do) is rather unhelpful and immature. Many suggestions arise that there is a 'group' of 'rivet counters' waiting to pounce on any failing in any others work with a pious, arrogant put down of their efforts. It appears the real situation is one of the majority core of 'out of the box' modellers taking numerous opportunities to attack those seeking more realism with a derogatory 'label' (with a worrying likeness to the current trend of demonising the poor and benefit dependants in the UK)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazmanjack Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Is the distance between the rails selective? What is wrong with wanting to create a model as near to the prototype as you can? If you want narrowed gauge, chunky wheels, wrong number, wrong livery, plastic lumps in point work, the 'elephant in the room' usually referred to as a tension lock coupling, then fine - get on with it and have a good time... ...my point is that there seems to be a constant knocking (on many threads on here) of modellers wishing to push a detailing boundary or two - name tagging such as 'rivet counters' (which I've never seen anyone do) is rather unhelpful and immature. Many suggestions arise that there is a 'group' of 'rivet counters' waiting to pounce on any failing in any others work with a pious, arrogant put down of their efforts. It appears the real situation is one of the majority core of 'out of the box' modellers taking numerous opportunities to attack those seeking more realism with a derogatory 'label' (with a worrying likeness to the current trend of demonising the poor and benefit dependants in the UK)... I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the majority of modelling. But I'm sure the 'rivet counters' out there have quite a few imperfections on their models/layouts as well. For me, out of the box modelling is fine by my standards. Some modellers excell at what others would love to achieve with their models. I for one enjoy what I can achieve with what is available to me, or what I scratchbuild from plans, pictures etc. My own layout I'm building is heavily based on Callington, and yes, selective compression and removal of some of the sidings is essential for the space I have allocated. As most modellers will say, 'It's my model, it's my empire and I'll do what I like..." In no way am I knocking the rivet counters out there, each to their own I say ! Oh yes, distance between the rails is selective, if you wish to hand lay your own track... Cheers, Gary. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Sometimes I think the thought that does it look right and could I make it look any more right with my own efforts? Something's just scream "wrong" though and then I have to ask a question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) If what gives you pleasure is to build a precisely detailed model with every blade of grass carefully reproduced then that's great. If you want to give an overall impression of a railway scene painted with a rather broader brush that's just as valid and so long as it's done to a reasonably good and equally important to a consistent standard I find that generally works better for me as a viewer. Criticising the latter approach strikes me as being rather like telling a painter that their work isn't as good as a photograph. I don't actually see selective compression as an unfortunate compromise but instead as a vital part of the art of creating for the viewer an overall impression of something that in reality is very spread out. We generally look at the prototype from much closer up than we do a model railway and that does make things appear closer together. Though there are many 00 layouts I enjoy very much I do find the inherent compromise a bit unsatisfactory if stock is seen end on. Even in broad brush terms I find that does look wrong. I'm generally happy enough with H0 and EM (provided the flanges and tyres aren't too gross) even though, when examined closely, trackwork and wheels do look rather better in P4 or P87. The difference doesn't for me change the overall impression that much but I know that for others it sticks out like a sore thumb. Edited July 7, 2013 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebottle Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Is the distance between the rails selective? What is wrong with wanting to create a model as near to the prototype as you can? If you want narrowed gauge, chunky wheels, wrong number, wrong livery, plastic lumps in point work, the 'elephant in the room' usually referred to as a tension lock coupling, then fine - get on with it and have a good time... ...my point is that there seems to be a constant knocking (on many threads on here) of modellers wishing to push a detailing boundary or two - name tagging such as 'rivet counters' (which I've never seen anyone do) is rather unhelpful and immature. Many suggestions arise that there is a 'group' of 'rivet counters' waiting to pounce on any failing in any others work with a pious, arrogant put down of their efforts. It appears the real situation is one of the majority core of 'out of the box' modellers taking numerous opportunities to attack those seeking more realism with a derogatory 'label' (with a worrying likeness to the current trend of demonising the poor and benefit dependants in the UK)... I agree with what you say about antagonism towards railway modelling purists (trying to avoid saying r***t c******s); I also agree that it is wrong to blame most of those dependent on welfare for their own misfortunes. However, I think that comparing the two is somewhat OTT... Edit: typo. Edited July 7, 2013 by bluebottle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I think it is time to be pragmatic, I bet a lot of us would like to be rivet counters, and admired for it. Or even do some thing down right quirky. I like Harry Potter, some one else likes something else, Unfortunately it's time, money, ability, and getting some thing done before you die that make us pause. Therefore, it is best to admire, those that do, and use their work to give you ideas to improve your own, whilst still producing something you are happy with. People forget, that because we are on a forum and therefore open to criticism, that they became involved in the hobby to be happy. So if you are happy, producing something you can enjoy, and improve as you go (and accept you will redo stuff at least when you get to the end the first time round) (N.B. we can be good car drivers even though we are not all Hamiltons or Buttons), and share this with individuals who accept not every one can be at the top of their game on every aspect, and yet still have something to say and give. It's about acceptance, once you accept and have that Zen moment (I am not into Zen persay you understand) then you will at least find it easier to be happy. And if people say nice things that's great, and if they don't ....well what the Hxll....YOU enjoyed it and that is what counts. Good people will encourage you regards the things you have endeavoured to achieve, and you can always just ignore the others 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) ...and be grateful that there are ever more demanding modellers out there pressurising manufacturers to 'up their game'. After all, the less ambitious modellers can then benefit from such progress without doing a corresponding degree of the 'spadework'. Dave Edited July 7, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Hi Jaz. Pretty much what I said earlier in this post although I did forgrt to mention consistancy. As long as you are consistant in your overall build then that is just fine in my book. Happy modelling Jazz. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 My tip is to always leave one rivet out .This infuriates the great and good who have to return to their library to check up if they have it right .While doing this they overlook the wrong colour ,short wheel base ,brush hairs ,and wobbly lining . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Does the "rivet counter" so obviously looked down upon by some posters in this topic actually exist? Or has this possibly mythical creature been created to enable some to knock those who aspire to build "better" models.? I've experienced comments about my modelling for items on my layout for "being out of period" or what have you, but usually because the person making the comment was trying to be helpful, rather than critical. I am fortunate to have met quite a few very good modellers over the years, working in various scales and gauges. Almost without exception they don't criticise those who don't seek to create models to the level that they do, who haven't bothered to learn the skills to paint, line, build, weather, etc. models to make them as realistic as they are able or haven't observed the real thing enough to model it well. They are also invariably willing to show others how they achieve the results that they do. At the same time I've met modellers whose efforts are best described as mediocre. It's usually those who are damning of the efforts of others who aspire to create "better models", by demeaning their work/approach/attitude. Too often they don't actually know the modeller(s) in question but feel it's acceptable to be generally rude, critical and demeaning of such people as a group. If "rivet counters" is a phrase to be used generically about those that aspire to create better and more accurate models, is there a suitable phrase for those that espouse mediocrity? If so, can I join and comment on models that aren't sufficiently badly modelled. Jol 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2013 Does the "rivet counter" so obviously looked down upon by some posters in this topic actually exist? Or has this possibly mythical creature been created to enable some to knock those who aspire to build "better" models.? I've experienced comments about my modelling for items on my layout for "being out of period" or what have you, but usually because the person making the comment was trying to be helpful, rather than critical. I am fortunate to have met quite a few very good modellers over the years, working in various scales and gauges. Almost without exception they don't criticise those who don't seek to create models to the level that they do, who haven't bothered to learn the skills to paint, line, build, weather, etc. models to make them as realistic as they are able or haven't observed the real thing enough to model it well. They are also invariably willing to show others how they achieve the results that they do. At the same time I've met modellers whose efforts are best described as mediocre. It's usually those who are damning of the efforts of others who aspire to create "better models", by demeaning their work/approach/attitude. Too often they don't actually know the modeller(s) in question but feel it's acceptable to be generally rude, critical and demeaning of such people as a group. If "rivet counters" is a phrase to be used generically about those that aspire to create better and more accurate models, is there a suitable phrase for those that espouse mediocrity? If so, can I join and comment on models that aren't sufficiently badly modelled. Elsewhere on RMweb in the last 24 hrs or so, a member provided snaps of the OO RTR coach he'd just bought, saying how pleased he was with it. Whereupon a well-known cottage-industrialist pointed out all the flaws as he saw them. Not nice. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Elsewhere on RMweb in the last 24 hrs or so, a member provided snaps of the OO RTR coach he'd just bought, saying how pleased he was with it. Whereupon a well-known cottage-industrialist pointed out all the flaws as he saw them. Not nice. Hello Ian, I don't see the relevance of that. The product in question is an RTR product from a major manufacturer. Although the "well-known cottage-industrialist" has criticised it, he isn't AKAIK, commented upon the modelling aspirations of the modeller that bought it. Therein lies the difference with those who condemn the modeller interested in a high level of accuracy as "rivet counters". Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2013 Hello Ian, I don't see the relevance of that. The product in question is an RTR product from a major manufacturer. Although the "well-known cottage-industrialist" has criticised it, he isn't AKAIK, commented upon the modelling aspirations of the modeller that bought it. Therein lies the difference with those who condemn the modeller interested in a high level of accuracy as "rivet counters". Jol I think I just see it as unnecessary bursting of someone's bubble. I greatly admire those of you who do go the extra mile to produce absolute accuracy on your models, and the "well-known cottage-industrialist" is highly knowledgeable and offers many quality products to assist in just that objective. Perhaps I regard pouring cold water on an RTR product as unbecoming. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted July 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2013 But by what mechanism are we to learn of RTR errors? "Cottage" industries, for example Shawplan have a great ability to improve RTR for the discerning modeller. Sure if you are happy to run straight from the box then no problem, but surely information given in the spirit of making a good model into a great model cannot be seen as unbecoming? Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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