Mystery coach ID sought (British coach in NL, 1946)

[eastwestdivide]

A poster from another forum has asked me to seek an ID for the coach in the attached picture. With permission, here it is:

 

British coach, numbered C 3314, its original British fleet number assumed to have been 3314, at Den Haag SS (The Hague), 27 July 1946.

Photo by the late J.A. Bonthuis, courtesy NVBS collection

 

and the details from the original thread at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1441538

 

A photo has been found of a bogie railway coach of undoubtedly British origin in Holland soon after the end of World War 2.

 

The photo was taken in summer 1946 at Den Haag SS station and the coach carries the fleet number 3314 and was used for third class passengers

 

We assume it originated with the Southern Railway or one of its predecessors, was taken to France with the British Expedionary Force in 1939/1940 and then left behind in June 1940.

 

The Deutsche Reichsbahn, which operated Dutch Railways from the start of the Battle of Arnhem on 17 September 1944 until 5 May 1945, then brought it to Holland and left it behind with hundreds of other non-Dutch coaches.

 

We do not think it was part post-war of British Army leave trains from Germany to Hoek van Holland, as it was clearly taken into use by Netherlands Railways (NS). In addition, the number 3314 appears in a 1946 list of foreign riolling stock in use, compiled by the NS rolling stock department

 

We are anxious to know more about the history of this coach. When and where was it bult. etc. Any information will be most appreciated!

 

Dirk

 

[Nick Holliday]

Judging by the lamp iron at the near end of the coach, I would suggest that this is an ex Great Western coach - it certainly does not look anything like any Southern stock.  This toplight third brake appears to be a very good match http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/drawings/coaches/draw6.jpg and I am sure a GW expert can come up with more.

[coachmann]

3-compartment ex GWR Bow-ended corridor third to D94.

Lot 1375 of 1927 Nos 1413-44 with RH and LH vans.

Lot 1384 of 1928 Nos.5087-5132 with RH and LH vans.

58' 4½" X 9' 0".

Condemned 1963.

[Adrian Wintle]

3-compartment ex GWR Bow-ended corridor third to D94.

Lot 1375 of 1927 Nos 1413-44 with RH and LH vans.

Lot 1384 of 1928 Nos.5087-5132 with RH and LH vans.

58' 4½" X 9' 0".

Condemned 1963.

 

And it is a RH van - the parcels section (van) is to the right as viewed from the corridor side. The photo is from the compartment side.

 

Adrian

[dwem]

Thank you very much for these replies, which are very useful to us in the Netherlands.

 

Ir leaves two questions:

Is there any information on one or more of these coaches being sent to France with the B.E.F. in 1939/40, or, how else did it get to the Continent, and, how did it get to be renumbered 3314.

The number 3314 does NOT fit into either the Dutch NS or Deutsche Reichsbahn numbering schemes ( nor, it would seem, in that of the SNCF).

 

Dirk,

NL-Arnhem

[TonyA]

This coach was GWR 4761 from Lot 1353. It was converted to ambulance use in March 1944 and formed part of Overseas Ambulance Train No. 33 as a Brake, Stores and Office car. It was used by NS for local services for a few weeks. It was later returned to the UK and reverted to its original number under BR in 1948.

 

This information comes from the Bulletin of the World War Two Railway Study Group which contains a much fuller description of this and other Ambulance Trains. Further information on the group can be found here.

 

http://www.saxoncourtbooks.co.uk/ww2rsg/

 

Tony

[Talltim]

As an aside, why bother building both left and right handed vans?

[Fat Controller]

As an aside, why bother building both left and right handed vans?

Wasn't it something to do with the position of off-centre gangways on Travelling Post Office vehicles, possibly for security reasons?

[billbedford]

As an aside, why bother building both left and right handed vans?

 So the corridor was on the same side of the train all the way through. It just looked neater……..

[Adrian Wintle]

 So the corridor was on the same side of the train all the way through. It just looked neater……..

 

I think the last coaches built with left- and right-hand vans were the Centenaries (1935), which were built so that the corridor would be on the south side of the set. There were also right- and left-hand compos for the same reason Bill mentions. Some of the 57' bow-ended Collett stock was built to run in sets (LH Van Third, Third, RH Compo, LH Compo, Third, RH Van Third) which put the vans at the ends, the first-class compartments in the middle, and the corridor down one side.

 

Adrian

[Welchester]

the first-class compartments in the middle

 

The safest place in the train.

[Adrian Wintle]

The safest place in the train.

 

More importantly, probably closer to the exits of most stations. This is also why the WR HST configuration normally had the first class coaches at the London end (less walking at Paddington - I guess the tradeoff was walking at PZ).

 

The Centenary set was designed so the first-class end of the compo was beside the dining saloon of the Restaurant First.

 

Adrian

[talisman56]

The LSWR also had 'handed' brake coaches - but this time the handedness was to ensure that the corridor would zig-zag down the set, e.g the corridor would change sides alternately as you walked down the train.

[dwem]

This coach was GWR 4761 from Lot 1353. It was converted to ambulance use in March 1944 and formed part of Overseas Ambulance Train No. 33 as a Brake, Stores and Office car. It was used by NS for local services for a few weeks. It was later returned to the UK and reverted to its original number under BR in 1948.

 

This information comes from the Bulletin of the World War Two Railway Study Group which contains a much fuller description of this and other Ambulance Trains. Further information on the group can be found here.

 

http://www.saxoncourtbooks.co.uk/ww2rsg/

 

Tony

 

Many thanks, Tony, this is helping us very much.

 

I assume GWR 4761 was built at Swindon, but can you add the year of its construction please ?

 

Dirk

NL-Arnhem

[TonyA]

The following article by Rob Bayliff is taken from the Bulletin of the World War Two Railway Study Group and is reproduced with their permission.

 

This ex-GWR coach was built as a Brake Third of lot 1353, completed 12/25 to diagram D94 and numbered 4761.  It would have been converted to a Brake, Stores and Office Car for Overseas Ambulance Train 33 during March 1943; one of a batch of 14-coach ambulance trains of mainly GWR stock numbered 32 – 35, 45, 46.  Train numbers 33 and 46 were built for US Army use; the remainder built for British forces were subsequently turned over to the US Army.

 

            The coach number in the train was 3314, the designation H, indicating its use as the Brake, Stores and Office car of ambulance train number 33.  The train was assembled during March 1944 and shipped to the continent from Southampton on 19th September 1944.

 

            From April 1945, some Ambulance Trains on the continent were being re-marshalled into leave, displaced persons and mail train sets.  Accordingly, the red crosses on white backgrounds on the trains were painted out and in some instances, 21 Army Group insignia applied.

 

            Dick Riley when in Utrecht noted an ex-GWR coach from Ambulance Train 33, which had to be detached for repairs.  The Nederlandsche Spoorwegen, very hard up for coaching stock, later used this coach (3314) on local services for a few weeks.

 

            Whilst pursuing WWII railway matters in my spare time in the Netherlands during the early 1970’s, the late N. J. van Wijck-Jurriaanse procured some photographs of British coaching stock on the NS for me and amongst them was J.A. Bonthuis’ photograph of  “NS Engelsrijtuig C3314, den Haag SS, 27-7-46” (photo reference NVBS 509.109CL).

 

            At a later date, whilst going through the Nederlandse Vereniging van Belangstellenden in het Spoor- en tramwegwezen Photoarchive Railways - the Netherlands, I came across the photograph of which Peter Fidczuk acquired a copy this April.  This was taken by O.K. Brahn on 15th April 1946 at Amsterdam (photo reference NVBS 594.118L).  Immediately one notices that the NS had the use of this coach for more than a few weeks!

 

            Inspection of both photographs, which conveniently show different sides, reveal the painted over red cross on white square (above the vehicle number at the middle of the coach), the ambulance train car designation letter H (at the ends of the sides), the Ambulance Train number 33 to the right of the top of the gangway on the Brahn print and the NS class numeral 3.  Unfortunately, the destination board under the vehicle number is indistinct on the Bonthuis print.

 

            A diagram of Brake, Stores & Office Car H from a set of diagrams covering GWR Overseas Ambulance Trains Nos. 32 to 35 (NRM Library reference DIAG/AMB/1) is reproduced courtesy of P. Atkins.

 

            Other photographs showing GWR diagram D94 Brake Thirds as Overseas Ambulance Train Brake, Stores and Office Cars are WDC/82 of 3214 taken on 11th July 1943 (PRO, Kew RAIL 253/327), a view looking down on a painter completing the roof top red cross on white square background of 3314 taken on 31st May 1943 (NRM, York Negative Number 1307/87).

 

            The “Steps (2sets)” shown on the diagram may be seen in IWM, London photo B15257 “Casualties who are able to walk are given comfortable saloon coaches for the journey” which shows the walking wounded going up the steps into the Sitting Car E of Overseas Ambulance Train 35.  The steps would be a necessary part of train equipment due to the low station platforms on the continent or the need to board a train anywhere along the line.

 

            As for 3314, it was sometime returned by the NS and repatriated, being returned to ordinary traffic on the brave new British Railways during February 1948 under its original number 4761.

 

If you have any further questions, I would be happy to pass them on.

 

Tony

[dwem]

Thank you very much, this is much more than we hoped for !!

 

I will look for the O.K.. Brahn picture when I am at the NVBS Archive in Amersfoort (where I am an assisatnt-archivist) later this month.

 

Dirk

[dwem]

British members might be intenrested in the following.

 

The Netherlands Railways list in which the number 3314 appears gives the following information on it:

 

"Ownership markings" (for Reichsbahn stock this is the abbreviation for the Reichsbahndirektion): Frft (=Frankfurt am Main).  So far this puzzles me, probably it is some other lettering on the coach -- the person compiling the list may not have beern familiar with what he saw. Furthermore, it is clear that the list was compiled by several different persons, and it is not free of mistakes.

"Type"  C, i.e. used as a third class coach by NS, Steel-bodied bogie coach

Number of seats: 70

No details on standing places and lighting

Details:  corridor coach of English origin.

Condition: reasonable,. classed 2 on a scale of  3: (1 = good, 2 = reasonable, 3 = bad) 

 

Considering the number of seats qouted, it seems likely that, in addition to the original passenger compartments, simple wooden benches were added (as was common in 1945/46) to increase capacity.

 

Finally, the Bonthuis photo shows the coach at Den Haag SS, coupled to a Reichsbahn 1930s bogie coach. This would make it most likely that it was used on an express working to Utrecht. Local trains had 2- or 3- axled stock in these days.

 

Dirk

NL Arnhem

[RJEB]

British members might be intenrested in the following.

 

The Netherlands Railways list in which the number 3314 appears gives the following information on it:

 

"Ownership markings" (for Reichsbahn stock this is the abbreviation for the Reichsbahndirektion): Frft (=Frankfurt am Main).  So far this puzzles me, probably it is some other lettering on the coach -- the person compiling the list may not have beern familiar with what he saw. Furthermore, it is clear that the list was compiled by several different persons, and it is not free of mistakes.

"Type"  C, i.e. used as a third class coach by NS, Steel-bodied bogie coach

Number of seats: 70

No details on standing places and lighting

Details:  corridor coach of English origin.

Condition: reasonable,. classed 2 on a scale of  3: (1 = good, 2 = reasonable, 3 = bad) 

 

Considering the number of seats qouted, it seems likely that, in addition to the original passenger compartments, simple wooden benches were added (as was common in 1945/46) to increase capacity.

 

Finally, the Bonthuis photo shows the coach at Den Haag SS, coupled to a Reichsbahn 1930s bogie coach. This would make it most likely that it was used on an express working to Utrecht. Local trains had 2- or 3- axled stock in these days.

 

Dirk

NL Arnhem

 

Goedemiddag,

 

The copy of the O. K.Brahn photo NVBS 594.118L: Amsterdam, 15 April 1946, published in World War Two Railway Study Group bulletin 12/04: July/August 2002, purchased by P. Fidczuk had details on the back "in dated writing": 'G.W.R. on Netherlands Railways  (unreadable scrawled word) {leave train coach in normal service between Amsterdam and Amersfoort} July 1945 '

 

So we have two differing dates for the same photograph.  I would say the correct year is 1946 as the need for Leave trains would have been more pressing in the previous year; the next year the pressure being reduced and the loan to the NS being somewhat flexible . . .

 

It will be interesting to check the date on the copy in the NVBS Fotoarchief - Spoorwegen Nederland when you visit.

 

Would it be possible to post the NS document on which 3314 appears?

 

Met vriendelijke groeten

 

Rob

NVBS 151028

[melmerby]

So the corridor was on the same side of the train all the way through. It just looked neater……..

I thought it was so the stowage area doors opened onto the loading platform on the correct side!

 

Keith

[Adrian Wintle]

I thought it was so the stowage area doors opened onto the loading platform on the correct side!

 

Keith

 

Not true in the case of the Centenary Riviera sets since they didn't get turned - the corridor was on the south (sunny/hot) side of the train, which kept the compartments cooler.

 

Adrian

[dwem]

Goedemiddag,

 

The copy of the O. K.Brahn photo NVBS 594.118L: Amsterdam, 15 April 1946, published in World War Two Railway Study Group bulletin 12/04: July/August 2002, purchased by P. Fidczuk had details on the back "in dated writing": 'G.W.R. on Netherlands Railways  (unreadable scrawled word) {leave train coach in normal service between Amsterdam and Amersfoort} July 1945 '

 

So we have two differing dates for the same photograph.  I would say the correct year is 1946 as the need for Leave trains would have been more pressing in the previous year; the next year the pressure being reduced and the loan to the NS being somewhat flexible . . .

 

It will be interesting to check the date on the copy in the NVBS Fotoarchief - Spoorwegen Nederland when you visit.

 

Would it be possible to post the NS document on which 3314 appears?

 

Met vriendelijke groeten

 

Rob

NVBS 151028

 

The document is a 22 page report compiled summer 1946 by NS for internal use, containing very limited information on all "foreign" passenger stock in use on NS. It is in the NVBS Library and I have  sent Rob its catalogue details by personal mail.

 

If 3314 was part of a British Army leave train, then I do not think 1945 would be the year of the Brahn photo, as I doubt that the port installations of Rotterdam and Hoek van Holland were sufficiently repaired to handle this traffic -- and priority was given to shipments of food and other necessities, only 2 months after the end of war.

Antwerpen, Zeebrugge, Oostende or the French Channel ports seem to me more likely.

 

Dirk

NL-Arnhem

[Fat Controller]

The document is a 22 page report compiled summer 1946 by NS for internal use, containing very limited information on all "foreign" passenger stock in use on NS. It is in the NVBS Library and I have  sent Rob its catalogue details by personal mail.

 

If 3314 was part of a British Army leave train, then I do not think 1945 would be the year of the Brahn photo, as I doubt that the port installations of Rotterdam and Hoek van Holland were sufficiently repaired to handle this traffic -- and priority was given to shipments of food and other necessities, only 2 months after the end of war.

Antwerpen, Zeebrugge, Oostende or the French Channel ports seem to me more likely.

 

Dirk

NL-Arnhem

Might such traffic have passed via Vlissigen to Sheerness? Antwerpen and the French and Belgian Channel ports would have in a similar condition to the Dutch ones, with Antwerpen having been hammered by both the Allies and the Germans; the latter considering it important enough to divert some of the V1s to attempt to deny its port installations to the Allies.

[dwem]

I would have to check on dates, but in late 1944 the island of Walcheren, on which Vlissingen lies, was flooded by Allied bombing of the sea defenses. I am not sure when the rail line to Vlissingen was reopened.

The port of Antwerpen at the time was the largest on the Continent, It fell to the British Army undamaged in September 1944. Antwerpen was indeed damaged by V weapons during the months that followed (mainly V2 I think), but opening the port for Allied military rransport was a priority I think.

 

I only wanted to note that military leave trains to Rotterdam and Hoek van Holland as early as summer 1945 seem unlikely to me, also because all the major river bridges in the Rhine delta had been destroyed during the last year of the war, so I am not sure that it would be possible at all to reach Rotterdam from Northern Germany by then.

But I will check.

 

Dirk

NL Arnhem

[dwem]

I must correct myself.

 

British Army leave trains started running to/from Hoek van Holland on 1 August 1945 via the circuitous route Kleve--Nijmegen--Kesteren--Geldermalsen--Utrecht--Gouda--Schiedam--Hoek van Holland Haven.

 

This makes it very probable indeed that 3314 was detached from  its leave train following some defect.

Repairs would most likely have been carried out at some NS facility, following which the coach was taken into service by NS.

 

Dirk

[RJEB]

The matter of British Military Passenger Train Working in Europe 1945 - 1961 is covered in The McNaughton Report which can be seen online at     www.movcon.org.uk/History/Documents/DID/D-MCHS 0501/D-MCHS 0501.htm    and copies as published by the World War Two Railway Study Group with photos and additional information are in the NVBS Bibliotheek and at the  Nederlandse Spoorwegmuseum, Utrecht.

 

The Hook of Holland was used by the  2nd British Army and Rotterdam by the Canadian 1st Army, constituents of the 21 Army group, for leave trains.