4472 Flying Scotsman - I don't understand why she is so famous?

[OnTheBranchline]

I've had these thoughts for some time and just wanted to write them down for everyone to discuss.

 

Is it possible that 4472 Flying Scotsman isn't worth all of the fame bestowed on herself by others? I'm trying to look at why she should be the world's most famous steam engine compared to Mallard or even City of Truro, but I don't see it.

 

Her selling point record of going 100 mph was done before by another engine (which is only a quarter as famous, even Mallard is half as famous as 4472). As far as I'm concerned the tracking method for her speed can be just as 'wrong' as the one used on City of Truro (authenicated or not).

 

A major factor in her current fame today can be attributed to the PR work done by the preservationists after she was saved from scrap and to a lesser extent the PR done by the LNER when she was in service. When James May talks about Flying Scotsman 30 years+ after the fact with such adoration, you know the PR has been good. People largely forget about her disasterous Stateside tour where Mr. Pegler had to be bailed out.

 

I think the real reason is that she was relatively famous at the time and she was saved from scrap (compared to being saved for the national collection like Mallard and City of Truro); a 'feel good' story if you will. Her fame comes from people's emotions and nostalgia rather than the loco's technical accomplishments.

 

[Ozexpatriate]

Didn't we do this already?
 

A major factor in her current fame today can be attributed to the PR work done by the preservationists after she was saved from scrap and to a lesser extent the PR done by the LNER when she was in service.

A major factor in her current fame today was the British Empire Exhibition of 1924. The railways had just been grouped and ex-GNR N^o 1472 flew the flag for the newly formed LNER as N^o 4472 - a new number with a new name that was pure PR. Notably present at the exhibition was another new locomotive - N^o 4079 Pendennis Castle (also preserved).

This, the eponymous 10:00 am train to Edinburgh she was named after, and the first authenticated ton were the reasons that Flying Scotsman was preserved.

How many steam locomotives have their own (silent) feature film? (Talk about PR!) Let's not forget the trip across the Nullabor and the Parkes to Broken Hill nonstop run of 442 miles.
 
It's a shame no other A3s were preserved. The old girl is 90 years old with a storied history. 4472 was ridden hard and is now (regrettably but understandably) a bit knackered.

EDIT: The movie wasn't silent.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[Cornish Triang Paul]

Glad im not the only one who thinks this. Just how many versions of flying ducks have Hornby done over the years ?!

A new version of FS seems to come out every year -  '  oh its been toBristol. Lets do a ltd. ed. pack with a choc/cream coach with it ' !!

[LNER4479]

Didn't we do this already?

 

A major factor in her current fame today was the British Empire Exhibition of 1924. The railways had just been grouped and ex-GNR N^o 1472 flew the flag for the newly formed LNER as N^o 4472 - a new number with a new name that was pure PR. Notably present at the exhibition was another new locomotive - N^o 4079 Pendennis Castle (also preserved).

 

This, the eponymous 10:00 am train to Edinburgh she was named after, and the first authenticated ton were the reasons that Flying Scotsman was preserved.

 

How many steam locomotives have their own (silent) feature film? (Talk about PR!) Let's not forget the trip across the Nullabor and the Parkes to Broken Hill nonstop run of 442 miles.

 

It's a shame no other A3s were preserved. The old girl is 90 years old with a storied history. 4472 was ridden hard and is now (regrettably but understandably) a bit knackered.

 

It is difficult perhaps for us these days to imagine what the PR 'hype' was like 90 years ago and I guess the very phrase 'PR' can have a bit of a stigma in these disillusioned days, rather akin to 'spin'. In the 1920s/1930s, the achievements of the railways was real news and were at the cutting edge of technology - no space rockets, satellite TV's or Top Gear 200mph supercars in those days. To travel non-stop between London and Edinburgh would have seemed like an incredible adventure - can you blame the LNER's publicity department from wanting to capitalise on it? Especially with the growing threat of road transport?

 

In that sense, 4472 was one of several 'weapons' in the LNER's armoury and she was often on display to the public, along with 2001, 10000 and 2509. Of those, only she survives. Alan Pegler had a big enough sense of history (and an obvious affection for the 'old girl', having first seen her at the 1924 exhibition) to realise the potential of a re-invigorated 'brand'. I personally thought this was quite well described in the recent TV documentary.

Edited May 15, 2013 by LNER4479

[Coldgunner]

She is clearly Hornby's most popular model, why should they drop her from the line?

 

Why is 4472 famous?

 

1st Pacific built for the LNER (1470 and 1471 were built under the GNR)

1924 Empire Exhibition, displayed next to Caerphilly Castle

1925 Empire Exhibition, displayed next to Pendennis Castle

1st non-stop KGX-Edinburgh (1928)

Her own feature film, one of the first to have sound and speech.

1st 'authenticated' 100mph run (1934)

1st mainline steam loco to be bought by a private individual for running on the national network

1968 non-stop run

Only loco allowed on the national network (officially) during the 'steam ban'

Toured the USA in 1969 through to 1973 (or '72?)

Toured Australia for the bicentenary, did the parkes to broken hill non-stop. Longest ever non stop run.

Most expensive steam loco ever

Has been owned by Alan Pegler, Sir William McAlpine, Pete Waterman and Tony Marchington. Each one famous and well known in their own right.

 

What other loco, or any form of transportation for that matter, has so much under her belt?

Edited May 15, 2013 by Coldgunner

[coachmann]

She became famous as soon as she entered traffic amid a blaze of publicity, and seen by some of the public at their local cinemas. She continued to be famous thru' the 1930s on jigsaw puzzles, toys and story books and this fame continued post-war. I suppose some folk find it easier in the 21st Century to ask nerdy questions just because they can. The loco is world famous.....Just accept it.

[chaz]

I honestly can't see why it matters either way. When a woman can be famous only for the size of her bust you know all there is to know about fame....

[spenny19]

on a different note , I find it hard to see why 4472 always seems to be so expensive to maintain, compared to other mainline certified locos? and their always seems to be a plea for cash to keep her going.  I would have though given her fame , she would be the loco most capable of sustaining herself on her own revenue stream.

[The Stationmaster]

on a different note , I find it hard to see why 4472 always seems to be so expensive to maintain, compared to other mainline certified locos? and their always seems to be a plea for cash to keep her going.  I would have though given her fame , she would be the loco most capable of sustaining herself on her own revenue stream.

Basically I don't think there is any mainline loco which is capable of sustaining itself from a train operating revenue stream, it simply would not produce enough cash.  Even the ever popular - for special train working - 'Tornado' is additionally supported by on-train and other marketing of things like jigsaws and fridge magnets and more extensive souvenirs and memorabilia while both its group and others are always seeking donations etc in plain cash.

 

The big difference with 4472 is that over the years it became extremely rundown and developed some fairly serious defects which might have been better controlled, monitored and dealt with if she had been in the hands of an attentive and highly committed supporting group.  Even 'Number 9' and 'Sir Nigel' - both of which have long been basically 'single owner' engines have strong support groups which provide that kind of attention while some of the other long term mainline locos have always had a standard of support, maintenance and supervision which is near legendary in the world of mainline operations and they have backed that by long term fund raising and sound financial planning.

 

Could a loco as famous as 4472 be self-supporting on revenue stream alone?  To be honest I very seriously doubt unless there was a lot of highly committed volunteer support for the loco covering everything from marketing to running maintenance and even financial planning.

[Poggy1165]

I can only say that as a kid I stood for hours on Cheadle Heath Station - which no longer exists - to see Flying Scotsman arrive there on a railtour, and I was not on my own. Even in those days, no other loco that still existed could have got me to do that. She was incredibly famous and still is. Some of it is undoubtedly down to PR, but as much can be said for many people and institutions. Now more than ever!

[coachmann]

In some circles Flying Scotsman is now infamous... 

[Ozexpatriate]

It is difficult perhaps for us these days to imagine what the PR 'hype' was like 90 years ago and I guess the very phrase 'PR' can have a bit of a stigma in these disillusioned days, rather akin to 'spin'. In the 1920s/1930s, the achievements of the railways was real news and were at the cutting edge of technology - no space rockets, satellite TV's or Top Gear 200mph supercars in those days.

Sir Felix Pole dedicated a chapter in his autobiography to what he called "propaganda". Promoting the railways was a big deal.

 

Arguably it's no different today, but the focus has changed to airlines. Think about how much press EADS got over the Airbus A380 or Boeing got over the 787 Dreamliner, or any of Sir Richard Branson's grand-standing shenanigans.

[phil-b259]

 

Is it possible that 4472 Flying Scotsman isn't worth all of the fame bestowed on herself by others? I'm trying to look at why she should be the world's most famous steam engine compared to Mallard or even City of Truro, but I don't see it.

 

 

Very possibly. However frame is rarely a rational thing, for example I would say most off the x-factor / [insert other trashy talent show] contestants also don't deserve the fame and attention they get either. That doesn't seam to prevent them being successful in the short term at least.

 

At the end of they day while there are legitimate grounds for debate by enthusiasts what we all need to recognise is that maintaining a working steam locomotive collection (be it the from NRM, those owned by private individuals or those or plodding up and down one of the many heritage lines in the UK requires an enormous contribution from the non enthusiast market (family groups, wine & dine services, 'land cruse' services, people who buy tacky FS clocks, people who drop in for a nice cup of tea and a cake, etc.) Given the name 'Flying Scotsman carries such weight with the non enthusiast market only a fool would fail to capitalise on the situation. Naturally this perpetuates the 'famous' status with future generations and leads to more debates from the enthusiasts as to why it should be the case.

[chaz]

on a different note , I find it hard to see why 4472 always seems to be so expensive to maintain, compared to other mainline certified locos? and their always seems to be a plea for cash to keep her going.  I would have though given her fame , she would be the loco most capable of sustaining herself on her own revenue stream.

 

I think that if you factored in all the unpaid volunteer work that keeps many wheels turning you might well find the costs not so disproportionate....

[Adrian Wintle]

 I'm trying to look at why she should be the world's most famous steam engine compared to Mallard or even City of Truro, but I don't see it.

 

Partly because Mallard or CoT never toured the world. I remember seeing Flying Scotsman on her North American tour - she came to my home town. That was one of the first times I had seen a steam locomotive (aside from the stuffed and mounted one outside the old station).

 

Adrian

[alfsboy]

When the Scotman visited Norwich way back when a huge crowd greeted her .not just old gnarly train freaks but kids ,mums and uncle Tom Cobblers and all .Its the train .Everyone knows it and its very good looking and attractive .Its an event in itself .Only train freaks and miszogs would do her down but like all pretty things the ugly must detract.

[coachmann]

Only train freaks and miszogs would do her down but like all pretty things the ugly must detract.

Miszogs....Yay, one I gotta add to the dictionary...

[PhilH]

I'll tell you why - I drive on a preserved railway, and every punter I pass the time of day with is convinced that their grandad drove the thing.

 

That's why....

[10000]

I'll tell you why - I drive on a preserved railway, and every punter I pass the time of day with is convinced that their grandad drove the thing.

 

That's why....

Well it wasn't my granddad or dad but I did know someone who worked on her in Doncaster plant. 

IMHO most of the fame comes from many years of good PR after Pegler bought her because back in the late 50's early 60's many of us hanging around Doncaster station did not consider her anything special, just another A3.

 

But I'm glad she was preserved because we don't have any other examples of the class.

[t-b-g]

It is famous because lots of people have heard of it.

 

Does it have to be any more complicated than that?

 

On the basis that the world has to have a "most famous" loco, Flying Scotsman has all the credentials to take that honour.

 

Sure the LNER publicity machine had a lot to do with it but that just proves that they did a good job. It probably all dates back to a quirk of fate of the loco being built right at the start of the LNER period and being chosen for the great exhibitions. Right from the start, the LNER publicity machine was producing books and literature and ensuring that their great looking new loco was all over the press.

 

Since then, the loco has appeared in films, on the telly and in the USA and Australia as well as having some impressive railway acheivements under its belt..

 

If there is any loco with more great acheivements and a more interesting history, I can't think of it.

 

Tony

[bluebottle]

It is famous because lots of people have heard of it.

 

Does it have to be any more complicated than that?

 

On the basis that the world has to have a "most famous" loco, Flying Scotsman has all the credentials to take that honour.

 

 

In the introduction to his book Muggeridge Through The Microphone (1967) Malcolm Muggeridge wrote; "In the past if someone was famous or notorious, it was for something—as a writer or an actor or a criminal; for some talent or distinction or abomination. Today one is famous for being famous. People who come up to one in the street or in public places to claim recognition nearly always say: 'I've seen you on the telly!'" - But Tony puts it more succinctly.

I would think that most of us, excluding the huffier GWR fans, would agree with Tony's other point too.

 

Edit: Allowed Malcolm Muggeridge his given name. 

Edited May 15, 2013 by bluebottle

[gwrrob]

I think it was the late great Ronnie Barker who once said something along the lines of there's a difference between being the most popular and being the best.

[bluebottle]

Didn't have to wait long for a bite, did I?

[chaz]

IMHO most of the fame comes from many years of good PR after Pegler bought her because back in the late 50's early 60's many of us hanging around Doncaster station did not consider her anything special, just another A3.

 

But I'm glad she was preserved because we don't have any other examples of the class.

 

Quite so, just another A3. (A better candidate? How about Papyrus?)   My own opinion, with which you are free to disagree, is that the A3s were the most elegant and well proportioned of all the Pacifics and I too am glad that we still have one - albeit still in bits.....

 

Chaz

[t-b-g]

As a reformed trainspotter myself (but too late for steam - drat!), I would have thought that in the 1950s, Flying Scotsman would indeed have been just another A3. All we were ever interested in was the rare "cop" and the locos we saw day in and day out hardly got a second glance, however historically interesting they might have been.

 

The appearances at the great exhibitions, the formation of the LNER and the first authenticated 100mph were already a generation ago and the loco didn't really do anything spectaculary noteworthy between the 30s and withdrawal.

 

I am sure that if those same 1950s trainspotters had seen it at the great exhibitions, or read about the 100mph run in the papers, they would have remembered it as being something a bit special.

 

Such things are very often all to do with timing and familiarity. Any poll of the 100 best films/telly programs/songs/books always seems to have the most recent stuff at the top, simply because folk are not familiar with what were probably more significant offerings from long forgotten times. 

 

Tony

 

Tony