Hornby 42xx- not a bashing thread

[toboldlygo]

It's on another topic somewhere, chuffs.  If it's any consolation this area was a weak spot on the real engines, and the bars from the smokebox that strengthen it were specifically to beef it up a bit.  Real Churchward 2-8-0s often had framework bent up a bit at the front after a bit of overcasual shunting.  AFAIK the 72x rebuilds had the strengthening bars from the outset.

 

Fortunately my 42xx does not suffer with this; it seems to be a bit of a lottery.  It is, since fettling up the slide bars, running perfectly and has neither given any further trouble or dropped any more bits off.  It is, I hope, settling down to becoming a very useful and smooth runner, but I'm fairly certain some of the back to backs are a bit off; it's starting to split a particular fiddle yard turnout running bunker first.

 

Seem like s'just one tang after 'nother, don' it?

In some cases the strengthening bars would be all the that was holding the front end of the running plate in place!

[chuffinghell]

In some cases the strengthening bars would be all the that was holding the front end of the running plate in place!

 

Luckily in this case I think you are right

[robmcg]

Curious question.

 

Would the 'Great Western' green 42XX or 52XX as in R3125  5274 have run with high top lamp bracket and outside steam pipes?

 

I notice the R3123 roundel green GWR version also has high bracket but no steam pipes.

 

Not sure when outside steam pipes began on these engines. Or if the roundel occurred as early as the high bracket?

 

 

 

Lovely models when straight, especially with the later bearings and darts.

[ndg910]

Curious question.

 

Would the 'Great Western' green 42XX or 52XX as in R3125 5274 have run with high top lamp bracket and outside steam pipes?

 

I notice the R3123 roundel green GWR version also has high bracket but no steam pipes.

 

Not sure when outside steam pipes began on these engines. Or if the roundel occurred as early as the high bracket?

 

5205_52XX_5274_R3125.jpg

 

4283_42xx_2-8-0T_GWR_1ab_r1200.jpg

 

Lovely models when straight, especially with the later bearings and darts.

I’ve always thought Hornby’s choice of number for 5274 was an odd one. 5274 was stored soon after construction and then converted to become 7239 and so had limited life as that number. The 5274 number was not reached when a further batch of 5205 locos were built in 1940.

 

Whilst I have two 42xx locos I’ve held off buying 5274 as it doesn’t quite feel right. I could renumber one but with the ski jump issues I’ve been put off.

[robmcg]

I’ve always thought Hornby’s choice of number for 5274 was an odd one. 5274 was stored soon after construction and then converted to become 7239 and so had limited life as that number. The 5274 number was not reached when a further batch of 5205 locos were built in 1940.

 

Whilst I have two 42xx locos I’ve held off buying 5274 as it doesn’t quite feel right. I could renumber one but with the ski jump issues I’ve been put off.

 

Certainly odd, especially with outside steam pipes?

 

I haven't read much about these engines yet but have the impression outside steam pipes didn't occur much until after WW2.  No doubt a rabbit's warren of details!

 

Does anyone have a model with raised running plates over the cylinders which left the factory with straight assembly I wonder? 

 

This forum certainly is a valuable resource in that willing and generous people show how to fix such manufacturing and assembly issues.

 

edit; can anyone suggest a book which details the history of the illustrious 8-coupled GW tank engines?

Edited October 3, 2018 by robmcg

[gwrrob]

Irwell Press do books on the three versions of these Rob plus the RCTS booklet for two cylinder classes.

[robmcg]

Irwell Press do books on the three versions of these Rob plus the RCTS booklet for two cylinder classes.

 

Thanks Rob. Can you name the relevant RCTS publication?

 

I find researching anything about the GWR rather odd, class names being rather, um, 'individual'...        '5205' class    yes, so easy to find that with a key word search.   Not.  

 

I have found the Irwell book by Ian Sixsmith 'THE 2-8-0 TANK PAPERS: 4200 AND 5200'  which should prove good, and have a few other rather nice GWR locomotive books so ought to be able to blunder my way to a superficial acquaintance with the marque.  

Edited October 3, 2018 by robmcg

[ndg910]

 

The Maidment book on GWR 8 coupled freight locos has a picture on p61 of 5266 mid conversion to a 72xx with straight frames and outside steam pipes. There is also a picture of 7239 which 5274 became on p73 showing the loco in 1938 with stepped frames and outside steam pipes. Not definitive but I think Hornby have it right with outside steam pipes even if the number as 5274 was short lived. The book also says 5274 was never stored and ran until conversion in Feb 1936. The number was therefore carried until this date and 5274 was the last 5205 converted as from 7240 onwards they used the older 42xx locos.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited October 3, 2018 by ndg910

[gwrrob]

Thanks Rob. Can you name the relevant RCTS publication?

 

 

 

Part Nine of The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway, Standard Two Cylinder Classes.

 

Ebay is your best bet as they come up quite regularly.

[robmcg]

Part Nine of The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway, Standard Two Cylinder Classes.

 

Ebay is your best bet as they come up quite regularly.

 

Is part nine solely 2-8-0Ts  ?  It isn't clear from the title.   Costs a bit to get one to NZ...     much appreciated.

[gwrrob]

No, it has about 14 different classes in it including the moguls and prairies that Dapol plan to release.

[robmcg]

The Maidment book on GWR 8 coupled freight locos has a picture on p61 of 5266 mid conversion to a 72xx with straight frames and outside steam pipes. There is also a picture of 7239 which 5274 became on p73 showing the loco in 1938 with stepped frames and outside steam pipes. Not definitive but I think Hornby have it right with outside steam pipes even if the number as 5274 was short lived. The book also says 5274 was never stored and ran until conversion in Feb 1936. The number was therefore carried until this date and 5274 was the last 5205 converted as from 7240 onwards they used the older 42xx locos.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Highly informative, thankyou very much.  

 

I cannot find the book so far on Abe books, nor Amazon, but still looking     Maidment as author doesn't bring up railway books, so far...

 

Could you please give a title or ISBN?

 

cheers

 

edit;  ah, found it?   Maidment. The GWR Heavy 8 coupled freight locos..  ?    Available only on Kindle to UK only.   the search continues!   

 

edit 2;   Nice to know that outside steam pipes were used in the 30s.

 

found!

 

Published by PEN & SWORD (2015)

ISBN 10: 178383109X ISBN 13: 9781783831098

 

but it says 28XX and 47XX  without mentioning other 8-coupled classes      is this the right book for the pics of 42/52XX you mention? I have bought it anyway, having a number of 47XXs and the 28/38XXs.

 

cheers again   onwards and upwards!

Edited October 3, 2018 by robmcg

[Siberian Snooper]

Rob,

 

All the GW 8 coupled engines are in the book, 28xx, 2884, ROD, 42xx, 47xx, 52xx and 72xx. I can't remember whether or not the absorbed 8 coupled engines are included and as I'm away, I can't check.

[robmcg]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

How can you not like these models!     Compact power indeed!

 

 

 

re-touched Hattons pics.  both engines bought by me....  around £70 each, including post to NZ. VAT off, they were about £82 UK retail.  Top marks Hattons.

 

I notice the Great Western version R3125 has small touches like spectacle glasses on the cab front,  bravo!  You wouldn't have read much about that in the furore with design clever!   Don't mention running plates....

Edited October 3, 2018 by robmcg

[ndg910]

Rob,

 

All the GW 8 coupled engines are in the book, 28xx, 2884, ROD, 42xx, 47xx, 52xx and 72xx. I can't remember whether or not the absorbed 8 coupled engines are included and as I'm away, I can't check.

There is also a bit about the LMS 8F locos built at Swindon and the USA 8 coupled locos used on the GWR. My preferences for books is longer captions when there are lots of photos which this book has but generally a good book and quite informative.

[robmcg]

A quick look at my 'A Pictorial Record of Great Western Engines Volume 2: Churchward Collett and Hawksworth Locomotives', by J H Russell , thick large hardbound volume, quality gloss photos and plans mostly 244pp   displayed like a plan book but bound in portrait form, opens sideways, if you know what I mean...

 

(is this the Swindon Way?  Short titles? Odd binding?    Give me Crewe any day)

 

..which I have read extensively for other GWR classes,  tells me that the 42XX class started with 4201 in 1910, and several batches built after 1912, up to no.5204 in 1923.  

52XX or 5205 class from 1923 built with outside steam pipes and slightly larger cylinders 19 inches rather than 18.5 inches.  Later versions of the 52XXs  5275-5294 (1933) had curved front framing with raised section over cylinders.

 

Apart from storage in the 1930s and the conversions to 72XXs, the original cast built-up steam chests were changed to the external steam-pipe type as required, presumably when early types had wear and/or corrosion. I am not sure which got raised running plates, with curved section to front plates. 205 total engines built to 1940, some (54?) rebuilt as 72XXs. 10 more 52XXs built after 1940?  So 165 4200/5200 engines in BR ownership.  The last were withdrawn in 1965.

 

The first five lots of 42XXs up to 1919 had parallel centre section brass-topped chimneys, later changed to tapered cast type, fitted new to later engines early engines had higher safety valve housings. Early engines had smaller bunkers, enlarged by 6 inches length as required, finishing in 1939.

 

Apologies if you know all this already, I am just skimming the surface, and probably wrong in some details, usually am.

 

2013: R3123 (4283 shirtbutton green) , R3124 (4266 BR black early), R3125 (5274 Great Western green).

 

These above have axles in square metal frame cutouts, moulded smokebox darts.

The following, below, with brass bearings and separately fitted smokebox darts. Rear wheel guards added.

 

2015: R3222 ( 4261 Great Western green), R3223 (4257 BR black late), R3224 (5239 BR black late, curved running plate).

 

2016: R3462 (4287 BR black late), R3463 (5231 BR black early, curved running plate).

 

All have finely moulded handles on tank fillers, often damaged in s/h samples, none have the distinctive injector overflow pipes outside rear wheel, understandably, given the need to go around 2nd radius curves.  From reading most of this thread, warped running plates are common, variable, and random, especially on those with raised running plates over cylinders, but not exclusively,  together with ski-jump front sections.

 

Also variable is the reliability and durability of motors and bearings and speed of loco as per gearing possibly lower from 2015?

 

All a great deal of fun!  More details and corrections welcomed.

 

today's edited picture here...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82970-hornbys-best-ever-models/page-101&do=findComment&comment=3319778

Edited October 4, 2018 by robmcg

[The Johnster]

So mine, originally 4287, is a post 2016 model.  I am interested in your comments about motor reliability/durability.  The gearing on mine is sensibly low for a heavy freight loco, top speed is about a scale 50mph, which it never achieves on my BLT!  The good news from my POV is that it runs slowly with light loads over short distances, and should last me a good while...

[TrevorP1]

So mine, originally 4287, is a post 2016 model.  I am interested in your comments about motor reliability/durability.  The gearing on mine is sensibly low for a heavy freight loco, top speed is about a scale 50mph, which it never achieves on my BLT!  The good news from my POV is that it runs slowly with light loads over short distances, and should last me a good while...

 

 

I recently bought a 4287, now 4206 of St Blazey. Similarly pleased with the performance although it has only run - albeit for some time - on the rollers. They seem a bargain to me at the moment.

[robmcg]

So mine, originally 4287, is a post 2016 model.  I am interested in your comments about motor reliability/durability.  The gearing on mine is sensibly low for a heavy freight loco, top speed is about a scale 50mph, which it never achieves on my BLT!  The good news from my POV is that it runs slowly with light loads over short distances, and should last me a good while7...

 

Yes, I should have pointed out that I have no experience of extended running with the 4200/5200/7200 locos, only short runs and they all ran well, I owned two 42XXs and two 72XXs actually, still have the 72XXs.  I only repeated comments earlier in the thread about reliability, also in some other threads as to Hornby motors in such as S15s and a few others.

.

 

I unreservedly withdraw the comments about reliability and durability, and in fact have no reason to think they are anything other than extremely durable.  I discovered just now that my brother has two models  R3222 Great Western green and a weathered R3224 BR black, bought after he visited the Dartmouth Railway in 2015 and they both run very well on his quite extensive layout.

 

Until 2011 I had a large layout and ran many Hornby models extensively and often quite heavily-loaded for video passes and never had a motor fail in any way, from a large collection of mostly post-2000 models..

 

Here are R3222 and TMC-weathered R3223

 

 

 

I believe I suffer from something caught from Swindon...   

Edited October 4, 2018 by robmcg

[rockershovel]

Yes, I should have pointed out that I have no experience of extended running with the 4200/5200/7200 locos, only short runs and they all ran well, I owned two 42XXs and two 72XXs actually, still have the 72XXs.  I only repeated comments earlier in the thread about reliability, also in some other threads as to Hornby motors in such as S15s and a few others.

.

 

I unreservedly withdraw the comments about reliability and durability, and in fact have no reason to think they are anything other than extremely durable.  I discovered just now that my brother has two models  R3222 Great Western green and a weathered R3224 BR black, bought after he visited the Dartmouth Railway in 2015 and they both run very well on his quite extensive layout.

 

Until 2011 I had a large layout and ran many Hornby models extensively and often quite heavily-loaded for video passes and never had a motor fail in any way, from a large collection of mostly post-2000 models..

 

Here are R3222 and TMC-weathered R3223

 

class_42xx_r3222_r800.jpg

 

class_42xx_r3223_r800.jpg

 

I believe I suffer from something caught from Swindon...   

That second photo is rather good..

[The Johnster]

The only issues I had with mine were things coming loose or falling off, the rear coupler, a buffer, and the rh slide bar causing a spectacular effect of the loco trying to stand up and walk; there's plenty of power there!  And the back to back was too narrow on the rear drivers; all easily fixed once you are aware of them.

[robmcg]

The only issues I had with mine were things coming loose or falling off, the rear coupler, a buffer, and the rh slide bar causing a spectacular effect of the loco trying to stand up and walk; there's plenty of power there!  And the back to back was too narrow on the rear drivers; all easily fixed once you are aware of them.

 

That seems like par for the course with RTR.  I am left wondering what proportion of models had assembly/manufacturing faults around the front running plate area, the kind which needed considerable work with files and re-fitting around the smokebox saddle and so on as described earlier in this thread and by Silver Sidelines?

 

In any event they are fine examples of somewhat forgotten, or at least not-glamorous locos of Britain's steam age.

 

It's a bit off-thread but the 42/52XXs are all about Welsh coal mining and the Ebbw valley and so on, which always makes me think of the Crumlin viaduct. Built in the early-mid 1850s it has an interesting history, near riots between Irish and English navvies, and all the energy and vitality of the Victorian industrial era. That the LNWR funded the viaduct to avoid paying the existing railways of the area to shift coal to Hereford and Shrewsbury, and those images of the mist-laden valley, certainly very impressive stuff. Demolished in 1967?

 

Did the 2-8-0T classes ever go over the Crumlin viaduct? In 1857 it was tested with 300 ton loads and passed ok. (six engines, essentially).

 

I also wonder about the type of working the 2-8-0Ts did in 'the valleys' because apart from peerless starting traction they must have been quite good at stopping heavily loaded trains.  I would be interested in reading any good books on the railway workings of that type.

 

50 years ago at school I read about certain Welsh mining disasters and they were tragic, but a good overview of the railway side of things would fit well with photos I make of these marvellous engines. I was lucky enough in 1967 to witness some of the similar last steam railway workings of New Zealand coal trains on the West Coast of the South Island, with ancient 2-6-4T and 4-6-4T engines with up to 90 loaded 4-wheel coal hopper wagons, which were air-braked trains, but in early days were not.  Hauling 87 empties up a 1-in-70 grade at about 5mph was so impressive a large number of patrons of a hotel near the summit came out to cheer the driver on! But that's rather off-thread..(I photographed that train too and others of the age)

[tomparryharry]

That seems like par for the course with RTR.  I am left wondering what proportion of models had assembly/manufacturing faults around the front running plate area, the kind which needed considerable work with files and re-fitting around the smokebox saddle and so on as described earlier in this thread and by Silver Sidelines?

 

In any event they are fine examples of somewhat forgotten, or at least not-glamorous locos of Britain's steam age.

 

It's a bit off-thread but the 42/52XXs are all about Welsh coal mining and the Ebbw valley and so on, which always makes me think of the Crumlin viaduct. Built in the early-mid 1850s it has an interesting history, near riots between Irish and English navvies, and all the energy and vitality of the Victorian industrial era. That the LNWR funded the viaduct to avoid paying the existing railways of the area to shift coal to Hereford and Shrewsbury, and those images of the mist-laden valley, certainly very impressive stuff. Demolished in 1967?

 

Did the 2-8-0T classes ever go over the Crumlin viaduct? In 1857 it was tested with 300 ton loads and passed ok. (six engines, essentially).

 

I also wonder about the type of working the 2-8-0Ts did in 'the valleys' because apart from peerless starting traction they must have been quite good at stopping heavily loaded trains.  I would be interested in reading any good books on the railway workings of that type.

 

50 years ago at school I read about certain Welsh mining disasters and they were tragic, but a good overview of the railway side of things would fit well with photos I make of these marvellous engines. I was lucky enough in 1967 to witness some of the similar last steam railway workings of New Zealand coal trains on the West Coast of the South Island, with ancient 2-6-4T and 4-6-4T engines with up to 90 loaded 4-wheel coal hopper wagons, which were air-braked trains, but in early days were not.  Hauling 87 empties up a 1-in-70 grade at about 5mph was so impressive a large number of patrons of a hotel near the summit came out to cheer the driver on! But that's rather off-thread..(I photographed that train too and others of the age)

It was a 'red route', so the larger locomotives could take loads over there. Subject to confirmation, I think the largest locos were 38/38xx tender locomotives. I think however, the 72xx tanks were banned over Crumlin.

 

As for Greymouth, I had the pleasure of travelling the line from Christchurch-Greymouth and return. Arthurs Pass was something else, even the Keas! Highly recommended.

[The Johnster]

The village of Crumlin, site of the famous viaduct, was also the location of the terminating basin of the Monmouthshire Canal.  It had, in the 80s, pubs called 'The Viaduct' and 'The Navigation' for no reason that was apparent at that time as both viaduct and canal had long disappeared! 

 

The viaduct was an integral part of the GW's Pontypool-Neath route, effectively a secondary main line, and carried some heavy traffic, including trains hauled by 42xx, 5205, and ROD and 28xx 8-coupled locos.  Speed was restricted, 10mph I think, but the viaduct had a strength belied by it's spidery appearance.  The big 8 coupled tanks worked underneath it as well, on the very heavy loaded iron ore trains to Ebbw Vale steelworks, banked by sister engines from Aberbeeg.  This line, the Western Valley branch, still open but no longer carrying freight traffic, features some very severe curvature and the big tanks were prone to losing water because the curves flexed the frames and strained the side tanks.

 

Valleys work for 42xx/5205 was, as a very sweeping generalisation, concentrated on routes which had been GW prior to the grouping, such as the Western (Ebbw) valley, the Vale of Neath, and the central Glamorgan valleys centred on Tondu, Bridgend.  They were less common on the Taff Vale, Rhymney, and so on, which used their own locos and the 56xx replacements when they were available.  An exception was traffic on the Pontypridd, Caerphilly, and Newport line, which necessitated loaded trains being hauled uphill between Pontypridd and Bedwas.  The locos worked over the SWML and Vale of Glamorgan as well, on more general freight transfer work as well as coal traffic.  I never saw one on anything other than freight traffic, and have never seen photos showing them working passenger trains, but I would not be at all surprised if somebody came up with evidence of them on Bank Holiday excursion or relief work, especially in the late 50s; anything that could pull a train was in use!  

 

The GW and WR timed passenger trains hauled by locos with 4'7" wheels at 50mph, and with some of the Bank Holiday stock, not used since last year and abandoned at the back of carriage sidings for decades, it was probably just as well!

 

The 72xx were more main line long distance beasts, and worked from Radyr through to Shrewsbury, Banbury, Corby, Salisbury, and Exeter on what were called 'double home' jobs; the loco and crew would work the train through to the destination without relief in the course of their full working day, dispose the loco at the local shed, sign off, and spend the night in lodgings or a railway hostel, prepping the loco and working back home the next day; a allowance was added to their pay for this work.  A crew from the other end would work the balancing job, and they would exchange insulting whistles when they passed half way.  72xx could be seen on more local main line transfer work, but were in demand for this and rare on pure Valleys jobs.  Canton provided the 72xx for the Radyr-Corby and Salisbury jobs, and as these were off-region, the shed's 1950s cleaning regime, more famously associated with sparkling Britannias on Paddington work, was applied; these 72xx were always spotless when they left the shed!

 

The 42xx/5205s were certainly associated with South Wales, but there were some in the West Midlands and a grouping in Cornwall for the heavy china clay traffic as well, perhaps the antithesis of the bucolic West Country branch tank engine.  They were powerful brutes, but, while the braking ability would have been appreciated with unfitted trains, it was not the deal maker/breaker you might think; Valleys work featured stops at the tops of inclines to pin down handbrakes on the wagons so that the loco had to pull the train down the bank rather than restrain it.  But accidents happened, and the sand drags at the bottom of the worst banks were usually full of mangled wagonry...

 

I'm not sure that losing buffers and couplings, and having motion brackets coming loose, is really 'par for the course' with RTR; it certainly shouldn't be at the prices we're paying.  Not moaning about prices, but I expect a bit of QC!  I have only one other Hornby loco, a 2721, which has issues but manages not to disintegrate in traffic; the rest are Bachmann and give no trouble at all.  I do not feel justified in criticising H on the evidence of just one loco, but I will be wary of future purchases.  As it happens, H have nothing on the horizon that I'm interested in so perhaps it's academic, but I don't find it necessary to test pull the buffers of models in blue boxes...

Edited October 6, 2018 by The Johnster

[robmcg]

Thank you so much The Johnster.

 

Apart from the marvellous information you have provided, your turn of phrase is superb, and bring colourful images to mind.

 

Of course I had forgotten about pinning down brakes on downhill sections, duh! I had been thinking of the vagaries of up-and-down lines.

 

I particularly like the reference to 'double home' jobs where, as you so aptly describe, ' A crew from the other end would work the balancing job, and they would exchange insulting whistles when they passed half way.'   Being from a multi-generation railway family myself I can go with that!

 

In any event I have bought 4 books, the Irwell 4200/5200 2-8-0Ts by Ian Sixsmith, the Great Western Heavy Freight Eight Coupled Locos by David Maidment, and 2 books by John Hodge the Railways and Industry of the Western Valleys, Ebbw Vale and South Valleys respectively. I think I will draw the line at trying to pronounce Welsh though.

 

Your post is greatly appreciated, thankyou.

 

If I may be permitted to indulge myself here is an edited pic of a 72XX with straight running plates, well, raised over the cylinders, but geometrically sound, intact buffers too.

 

 

May I ask what kinds of wagons were used on the iron-ore trains Ebbw Vale Ironworks and what the grades were?  With a pair of 42XXs this must have been spectacular. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by robmcg