Mk1 Restaurant cars

[sub39h]

Hi there,

 

I am collecting rolling stock for a c1990 layout (+/- 3-4 years). It is geographically warped as well as it is representing a fictional station that sees traffic from ECML, MML, WCML and XC. (My main interest is express passenger trains and this allows me to model most of the ones I find most interesting.) I really like the look of Class 20s, so I've bought a couple of Bachmann ones. They will mainly be used for freight, but I note that they did sometimes pull passenger trains in the summer and on railtours. For these I'm in the process of collecting Mk1s. I'm assuming that these would have some sort of restaurant car in the rake, but I don't really understand the differences between all the different types and when they were used. From what I gather, the restaurant cars available are:

 

RBR

RMB

RFO

RU

 

Bachmann model all of the above, although from what I can see the RBR was only available in Intercity Exec livery. the RU is an old model and is quite hard to track down although I know one was available at my local model shop last week which I nearly bought at the time. What would be the most appropriate for the Class 20 rake that I am planning? And what would be the main usage of all the different types of restaurant? I think the RFO wasn't used beyond the 1970s but aside from that I don't know much and searches along the lines of "Mk1 carriages" "Mk1 restaurant" on here and on Google are proving fruitless.

 

Thanks guys

[phil-b259]

Hi there,

 

I am collecting rolling stock for a c1990 layout (+/- 3-4 years). It is geographically warped as well as it is representing a fictional station that sees traffic from ECML, MML, WCML and XC. (My main interest is express passenger trains and this allows me to model most of the ones I find most interesting.) I really like the look of Class 20s, so I've bought a couple of Bachmann ones. They will mainly be used for freight, but I note that they did sometimes pull passenger trains in the summer and on railtours. For these I'm in the process of collecting Mk1s. I'm assuming that these would have some sort of restaurant car in the rake, but I don't really understand the differences between all the different types and when they were used. From what I gather, the restaurant cars available are:

 

RBR

RMB

RFO

RU

 

Bachmann model all of the above, although from what I can see the RBR was only available in Intercity Exec livery. the RU is an old model and is quite hard to track down although I know one was available at my local model shop last week which I nearly bought at the time. What would be the most appropriate for the Class 20 rake that I am planning? And what would be the main usage of all the different types of restaurant? I think the RFO wasn't used beyond the 1970s but aside from that I don't know much and searches along the lines of "Mk1 carriages" "Mk1 restaurant" on here and on Google are proving fruitless.

 

Thanks guys

 

 

OK the descriptions quoted above are

 

RBR: This stands for 'Restaurant Buffet Refurbished'. The RB bit signifies it has a full kitchen plus buffet counter as well as 23 lose seats in its origional condition. The 'refurbished' bit of the description relates to a mid life upgrade which saw things like flourcent lighting and fixed seating installed although this did not change its seating capacity. In model terms this vehicle has not been produced - though Bachmann do produce a RU which looks similar in many respects.

 

RMB: This stands fro 'Restaurant Minature Buffet' and basically is a standard TSO (Tourist second Open) coach with 4 or 5 seating bays removed and suitable window changes. As its name suggests it was designed to serve light refreshments where a full restaurant car service was not required. Bachmann do produce a model of this and in the past Hornby have also produced it

 

RFO:  This stands for Restaurant First Open' and includes no catering facilaties at all. Its function was to provide seating and tables for passengers with food and drinks being supplied from an adjacent restaurant car. While Bachmann do produce this vehicle its usefullness is a bit limited as in reality it should run with a RKB (Restaurant Kitchen Buffet) - a vehicle with a kitchen and buffet but no seating - which they don't produce.

 

RU: This stands for 'Restaurant Unclassified' and includes a kitchen plus lose seating for diners. It has no buffet facilaties as built (A RB would be used if these were needed) and as the 'Unclassified' tag suggests could cater for both first or second class passengers. In later years I believe some were refurbished and given buffet facilaties turning them into RBR vehicles. Bachmann do produce a model of the RU but you should be awere that some of the later liveries are incorect because they were only given to refurbished coaches which do have some bodywork differences to the origional design.

 

The following link may also be of interest

 

http://www.trainzclassics.co.uk/downloads/content/additional/coaches_mk1.htm

[Dagworth]

OK the descriptions quoted above are

 

RBR: This stands for 'Restaurant Buffet Refurbished'. The RB bit signifies it has a full kitchen plus buffet counter as well as 23 lose seats in its origional condition. The 'refurbished' bit of the description relates to a mid life upgrade which saw things like flourcent lighting and fixed seating installed although this did not change its seating capacity. In model terms this vehicle has not been produced - though Bachmann do produce a RU which looks similar in many respects.

Mainline produced an RBR for several years, the model stands up well against current products.

 

Andi

[sub39h]

thank you both for your input. a cursory search would indicate it would be easier to get a Bachmann RU than a Mainline RBR. whilst this may not be strictly prototypical I'd imagine I'd be happier running a rake with matching Mk1s (in terms of style of manufacture and paint finish) at the expense of having a rake that's not quite perfect in terms of formation. 

 

which of these (if any) would typically feature in the sort of service that a pair of Class 20s would head? i've seen a picture of a train from Llandudno to Derby via the old interweb and this is the sort of train I'd be looking to model - long-ish distance, maybe the sort of train that would normally be headed by another locomotive as the rake would probably be pulled by something like a Class 25 when my 20s are on freight duty. 

[Gwiwer]

Class 20 use on passenger services was restricted to secondary duties or some famously-documented summer workings to resorts of which Skegness and Llandudno are probably the best known for the type.  Those workings did not offer on-train catering or, if they occasionally did, it was supplied via a trolley.  Inclusion of a catering vehicle in the rake would have been unlikely as loads were very limited due to the low power of the locos and restricted platform lengths in some cases.   

 

Likewise the use of class 25 on passenger duties would only have been on lightweight secondary workings generally not offering catering facilities. 

 

It's worth bearing in mind that while we now accept that there will be at least a trolley service on many longer cross-country (a generic term and not limited to XC trains) runs for at least a part of the journey that this was not always the case in loco-hauled days.  A good many trolley service runs did exist but they wer eseldom advertised as such in timetables and their presence was not always reliable.

 

For the most part only Inter City trains conveyed restaurant cars though some were in use on the Cross Country axis and even offered a plated fresh-cooked meal service on demand (marketed as Cross Country Grill) for a while.  Some SR internal services used RMB vehicles in loose-hauled rakes or RMB-derived EMU coaches.

 

The Mk1 RMB would appear in diagrams where a snack service was felt desireable but a full meal was unlikley to be justified.  By the 1980s and 1990s their use was minimal; one could sometimes be found on the Paddington - Penzance overnight train until Mk3 stock took over for example but usually only as a substitution for a Mk2 TSOT or TSOB vehicle. 

 

As no Mk2 catering cars were built (as such) Mk1 restaurants and buffets were included in Mk3 rakes on major main lines until the Mk3 (loose and HST) coaches became available.  These were largely refurbished vehicles and authorised to run at 100mph. 

[sub39h]

that's all very helpful, thank you. so I don't need to get a restaurant for this particular train, which is good!

 

in a sort of related question, I was contemplating getting one of the Bachmann Mk1 RBRs in Exec livery to put into my Intercity Pullman train. The train isn't going to be strictly prototypical because 1. i'm mixing the Manc/Liverpool rolling stock and 2. there will be less TSOs as my platforms won't be long enough for full trains. it's going to be led by a Heljan 86 and a Hornby Mk3 DVT (both of which are lovely models imho). now by what you're saying (and by the fact the rest of my train is going to be made up of Mk3s) i'd imagine that an RFM would be the right choice of buffet car in an ideal world, but i'm not sure i have the requisite skill to make an RFM and a BFO to finish the rake, so would an RBR have ever run with an otherwise complete Mk3 rake with a DVT?

[Gwiwer]

With a DVT rake?  Yes because DVTs were employed with Mk2 stock which included Mk1 restaurant cars.  With a DVT+Mk3 rake?  Not that I am aware of but possibly in the early days with the RBR acting as a spare for unavailable RF. I'm sure one of our coaching stock historians will be able to say a definite yay or nay here.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that the shore supply to restaurant cars changed significantly once the Mk3 cars took over.  From supply of raw ingredients for on-board cooking and preparation the WCML went over to airline style cook-chill using modules which were loaded onto the train with food ready for warming to a suitable temperature.  Buffet food also changed from made-on-the-run sandwiches to pre-packed ones.  Refrigeration of display counters introduced modern standards of health and food hygiene which effectively saw off the Mk1 catering vehicles.

 

They remained (and indeed remain) in use for charter fleet operations and some went to the BR IC charter unit where they were adorned with white roofs and wheel rims on IC livery and were marshalled into lengthy rakes of up to 16 coaches for land cruise trains.  Those comprised a mix of Mk 1 FO seated cars and Mk3 sleepers with two or even three restaurants in the rake.  In general a restaurant car was considered able to serve to a maximum of three seated cars or two if they were 2+2 seating and ideally to no more than two on either side of the catering car.

[Poor Old Bruce]

In addition to what Gwiwer had said above about the Skegness and Llandudno trains, I would add that they were Second Class only. It was all about bums on seats in those days when there were 12-coach trains to Skegness from Sheffield, Burton/Derby, Leicester and another starting from Nottingham with those from the east midlands having pairs of 20s or 25s. It always stuck me as odd that the Skeggies got pairs of locos for the relatively low speed line while the Llandudno with a similar load was just given a single 25 for the North Wales main line (although I did get a pair of 20s once romping along at 75 while the data panel on the cab side said the max was 60!). At some time there was even a train from Kings Cross to Skegness which sometimes had Deltic haulage.

[Gwiwer]

Pairs of 20s were required not for speed but to pick up and shift the load.  That's quite apart from the fact that for most of their lives they have normally worked nose-to-nose in pairs for the benefit of their crews.  The top speed of the Skeggy "Jolly Fisherman" trains was never anything to shout about.  The loadings sometimes were.

 

The latter-day Blythe Bridge - Llandudno workings also produced pairs of 20s rather than a single 25.

[sub39h]

thanks very much for all the info above. i wasn't aware that there wasn't any 1st class accommodation in a Class 20 led train. I've purchased a Mk1 CK already, but I can put that in another rake so that's no big deal 

[Dagworth]

 

Skeggy bombs, load 9 mark1s, 1983

 

 

 

 

Class 20s leaving Skeggy in the last summer of the workings, load 8, all mark2

 

Andi

[jjb1970]

The old Mainline Mk.1 buffet was years ahead of its time, just a shame that it took years for British outline coach models to catch up and overtake that great model.

[sub39h]

 

Skeggy bombs, load 9 mark1s, 1983

 

 

 

 

Class 20s leaving Skeggy in the last summer of the workings, load 8, all mark2

 

Andi

 

thanks very much of those. I'd like some of those Mk2s in regional railways livery but the only recent models I can find are (sold out) Model Rail exclusives. In fact I was hoping to mix my Mk1 livery blue/greys with some Regional Railways livery but I missed out on a set on eBay and I don't think they've been produced for quite some time.

[Classsix T]

Don't overlook what has been mentioned about Charter trains. The early 90's was probably the last zenith of "Crank-ex" haulage before a new age of marketing, loco withdrawals and suchlike diminished what could often be a scratch rake of stock and any loco with fuel in it to haul it. Think football before it became "family-friendly".

"Do yer want heat or power Chief?" as depot managers are quoted as saying.

 

C6T.

[JCL]

In addition to what Gwiwer had said above about the Skegness and Llandudno trains, I would add that they were Second Class only. It was all about bums on seats in those days when there were 12-coach trains to Skegness from Sheffield, Burton/Derby, Leicester and another starting from Nottingham with those from the east midlands having pairs of 20s or 25s. It always stuck me as odd that the Skeggies got pairs of locos for the relatively low speed line while the Llandudno with a similar load was just given a single 25 for the North Wales main line (although I did get a pair of 20s once romping along at 75 while the data panel on the cab side said the max was 60!). At some time there was even a train from Kings Cross to Skegness which sometimes had Deltic haulage.

 

Bang on about bums on seats (and hanging out the windows waving!) I remember seeing a photo of a class 31 at Skegness station with a 1st class section. It took me some time, but I've managed to track it down here. Of course, the yellow band doesn't actually mean it was in use as a 1st class section.

 

As a kid living not far from the line and seeing all the cl20 double-headers, a single class 20 always looks wrong!

[298]

Bang on about bums on seats (and hanging out the windows waving!) I remember seeing a photo of a class 31 at Skegness station with a 1st class section. It took me some time, but I've managed to track it down here. Of course, the yellow band doesn't actually mean it was in use as a 1st class section.

 

 

It was probably only there to provide a brake compartment, unless a higher class of Skegness clientele required first class accomodation on the Jeremy Kyle express. Do you think they carry their clothes in Waitrose carrier bags, instead of bin bags...?