Australia - Preservation Scene

[PhilH]

After fannying around with steam locos for nigh on 30 years I don't get all exact about the things, most of them are just pains in the butt, big challenges to get over. I don't do she or her, they are most definitely its. So...we just do what needs to be done without worrying about if it's a 'new' engine or not,just always thankful when it goes and stops after you've done it.

 

For instance, The thing in my avatar was such a wreck before restoration that a big percentage of that is new, but, to me, all that was done was what they would have done in the works back in the day, just replace or repair with new parts those that needed it.

 

For me the only new engine around is that 60163, no provenance whatsoever.....

[69843]

After fannying around with steam locos for nigh on 30 years I don't get all exact about the things, most of them are just pains in the butt, big challenges to get over. I don't do she or her, they are most definitely its. So...we just do what needs to be done without worrying about if it's a 'new' engine or not,just always thankful when it goes and stops after you've done it.

 

For instance, The thing in my avatar was such a wreck before restoration that a big percentage of that is new, but, to me, all that was done was what they would have done in the works back in the day, just replace or repair with new parts those that needed it.

 

For me the only new engine around is that 60163, no provenance whatsoever.....

In regards to she, it, etc. it's usually what my brain decides to write at a given point. They are most definitely 'it'.

 

I agree that a new engine means 100% newly assembled from near-scratch*. How many of the Barry locomotives have countless new parts, but are still heritage items? And wasn't there a new set of frames fitted to a GWR locomotive in preservation not too long ago?

 

If locomotives were put into protected status as soon as something needed doing in preservation, no locomotive would ever run again. We'd have no A4s, no Light Pacifics, no Kings even. By working on engines, it keeps them alive. Even Scotsman had new frame parts made new in BR, so why should the fixing of Bittern be classed as anything different. It is, put simply, a running repair to allow her to be seen by many enthusiasts, most of them greatful of the time, money and physical labour that has gone into fixing them up.

 

*I say from near scratch, as some new-builds like The Unknown Warrior and 4709 are using parts from other locomotives, such as wheels, cylinders etc.

[faulcon1]

Take the Talyllyn Railways in North Wales. Yes narrow gauge. Loco No.2 Dolgoch was rebuilt and all that was used from the original loco was the motion, wheels and one buffer the rest was all new including frames. In reality she is a replica of the original No.2. No.1 Talyllyn is actually a brand new engine as the original was totally worn out. The only trouble with No.1's build was that the people who did it were gas works engineers and not loco work engineers and they got a little "carried away". When she returned to the railway she had a strict rail gauge of 2'3" but the Talyllyn Railway had always been 2'3" and a thumb. The worlds first preserved railway had a lot of trouble with the loco for about 10 years.

But everybody looks on the locos as the original No.1 and 2.

The same will eventually happen here with locos like 3642. She eventually will have to have new frames and the cab numbers will proclaim 3642 and people will say that loco is 3642 when in actual fact it will be a replica of 3642.

Take 3265 or 03,14 and 37 none of those are original P6 class locos as they've all been rebuilt to a certain degree. Only 3265 is close to being original for having curved frames. But the other three have all lost their curved  frames and have straight frames but they're still looked upon as P class locos. So when people say if a steam loco receives new frames it is no longer the original loco that it was. They are right. But the loco will be looked upon as the original. 

[faulcon1]

In 2004 A4 60007 "Sir Nigel Gresley" underwent a major overhaul at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway at a cost of 550 thousand pounds or around 1.2 million Australian dollars. It had only been 10 years since it's previous overhaul. But as one of the restoration team put it," the loco is getting old an metal fatigue is appearing more often". In the UK a major overhaul of a steam loco HAS to occur every 10 years. No ifs or buts. The boiler has to come out of the frames and the loco is dismantled right down to the last nut and bolt.

 

I heard that 3642's recent overhaul was only JUST cheaper (cost wise) than 3616. Around $320,000 for 3642 and 350,000 for 3616. But until you take the loco apart you don't know what really needs to be done. Locos like 3820 which would no doubt need a new boiler and lots of other work would cost in round figures (my guess) 2.5 million for a proper thorough job to be done.

It seems to me that RTM/Trainworks/government restore a loco and then think, "now we can relax". There is no rolling program of overhauls like on the Blue Bell Railway where when they restored a 9F 2-10-0 92240 from scrapyard condition the same condition that ex Mersey Railway 0-6-4 tank the Major is in the loco steamed out of the shops and the workforce cheered and then said "ok what's next?".  

Edited July 10, 2014 by faulcon1

[Craigw]

Take the Talyllyn Railways in North Wales. Yes narrow gauge. Loco No.2 Dolgoch was rebuilt and all that was used from the original loco was the motion, wheels and one buffer the rest was all new including frames. In reality she is a replica of the original No.2. No.1 Talyllyn is actually a brand new engine as the original was totally worn out. The only trouble with No.1's build was that the people who did it were gas works engineers and not loco work engineers and they got a little "carried away". When she returned to the railway she had a strict rail gauge of 2'3" but the Talyllyn Railway had always been 2'3" and a thumb. The worlds first preserved railway had a lot of trouble with the loco for about 10 years.

But everybody looks on the locos as the original No.1 and 2.

The same will eventually happen here with locos like 3642. She eventually will have to have new frames and the cab numbers will proclaim 3642 and people will say that loco is 3642 when in actual fact it will be a replica of 3642.

Take 3265 or 03,14 and 37 none of those are original P6 class locos as they've all been rebuilt to a certain degree. Only 3265 is close to being original for having curved frames. But the other three have all lost their curved  frames and have straight frames but they're still looked upon as P class locos. So when people say if a steam loco receives new frames it is no longer the original loco that it was. They are right. But the loco will be looked upon as the original. 

 

You are getting yourself very confused here by not understanding the way that the NSWGR functioned. The railways were always starved of capital to buy new stock, but they could fairly easily use revenue money to fund rebuilding work. In the case of the 35 class, there were issues becoming obvious with them in the 1930s and they were totally rebuilt in the late 1930s. Amongst the work was new frames and new cabs. There was also a great deal of other work done. Indeed, the reality was that there was not all that much of the original used. But, because it used some of the original the railways could class it as renewal work. The fact that it was totally rebuilt is the reason that many (including me) object to painting the loco blue. It is erroneuous and deceptive to tell the public the loco was blue when it simply was not. other, less polite people that myself would call it an outright lie and distorting history.

 

The 32 class do not have curved frames and never did. The original frames were 1" thick and with superheating being introduced and the frames ageing it was found that a good number of the 32 class were getting frame fractures. Once again, the railways did a rebuild and a good number of the class were rebuilt with new frames 1 1/8" thick and with the boiler centre line raised by 4". This rebuilding occurred from the late 1930s until the early 1950s but not all locos were treated.  The common term to describe them in later years was high and low framers although most people still refer to them as the P class. 3203, 3214 and 3237 are all high frame locos, while 3265 is the only surviving locos fitted with original frames - albeit they were built up in the 1920s or 30s to accommodate a superheated boiler and extended smokebox.

 

Will 3642 eventually need new frames? Who knows. At that point interest may switch to restoring one of the other 36 class to service. A 38 class needing new frames will be a serious issue indeed because they have cast frames. Replacing frames is not undertaken casually, it is a big job. never been done in NSW preservation to the best of my knowledge.

 

Craig W 

[69843]

The same will eventually happen here with locos like 3642. She eventually will have to have new frames and the cab numbers will proclaim 3642 and people will say that loco is 3642 when in actual fact it will be a replica of 3642.

I hate to disagree, but how would this make it a replica? By definition:

"A replica is an exact reproduction (as of a painting) executed by the original artist or a copy or reproduction" (Courtesy Wikipedia)

 

However, as 3642 is still 3642, it wouldn't be a replica but still be 3642, just having evolved due to the nature of the railways. Don't forget 3642 has had a new boiler in preservation, countless new fittings to keep her in service, now has a second lubricator and ICE radio fitted to comply with current railway regulations and keep her going in preservation. These are requirements to keep the engine running in the modern day and age. While we could stop 3642 and say 'We will no longer run it due to keeping it in it's current condition', it could still carry all of these modifications as it has run on the railway like this in the museum. If and when the time comes for a replacement of the frames, 3642 will not become 3676, but stay as 3642

 

As to the C32s still being looked upon as P(6) class locomotives, you can say the same regarding the NN/C35 class, S(636)/C30/C30T G(1204)/Z27 etc.

 

In reality, the C32s are looked at as C32s. Yes, 3265 might have been built as P584, but it is looked at by a majority of the preservation and enthusiast worlds as 3265.

 

As to constantly rolling locomotives in and out of the workshops, The NSWRTM/THNSW never just goes 'OK, we've gotten XXXX out of the works, let's do nothing until the next time she needs a rebuild.' Why else would 3801 be in the works? Why else would 3526 be in the works? We don't just have a bunch of people sitting around doing nothing. We have workers who are working on 3526 to bring her back next year. We have workers doing work on 3801 while there is no boiler to fit, allowing her to steam for many more thousands of miles. We have people assessing what locomotives might be suitable to return to steam, and we have people working hard to keep our diesel fleet working.

 

No rolling programme of overhauls? I don't think so.

 

Edited to include sentence fragment that dropped off.

Edited July 10, 2014 by 69843

[faulcon1]

Some have said that it would cost 1.8 million to bring 3820 up to operational status. Others have said that is a lot of money. But the state government can burn up 7 million on the 31st of December each year and the cost rises every year.

I would never give a substantial amount of money towards standard gauge loco restoration here in NSW due to the locos,coaches and wagons being own by the state government.

I would give a substantial amount towards loco restoration, but I'd want something in return and not just a receipt for tax. I'd want a cab ride for say a $5,000 donation.

Yes people are upset because someone as decreed that 3526 is to be painted blue and others wanted it painted dark green. But who owns it and who's paying for it......the state government. The museum cares for it but they don't own it.

If the heritage office lot decided to have 3526 move to Broadmeadow there is very little if anything the museum could do about it. 

[69843]

Some have said that it would cost 1.8 million to bring 3820 up to operational status. Others have said that is a lot of money. But the state government can burn up 7 million on the 31st of December each year and the cost rises every year.

I would never give a substantial amount of money towards standard gauge loco restoration here in NSW due to the locos,coaches and wagons being own by the state government.

I would give a substantial amount towards loco restoration, but I'd want something in return and not just a receipt for tax. I'd want a cab ride for say a $5,000 donation.

Yes people are upset because someone as decreed that 3526 is to be painted blue and others wanted it painted dark green. But who owns it and who's paying for it......the state government. The museum cares for it but they don't own it.

If the heritage office lot decided to have 3526 move to Broadmeadow there is very little if anything the museum could do about it. 

$1.8 Million seems to be about right to me, but the removal of asbestos would eat into a bit of money. 3820 is not envisioned to steam any time soon, as it is viewed as the display 38 these days. Originally, 3801 and 3813 were the trafficable engines, with 3830 stored and kept for the Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences (now the Powerhouse Museum) to be sectioned for display. 3820 was a bit of a late inclusion as the last 38 in service with the NSWGR, and has never been touched mechanically since leaving service, apart from the drivers side big end being donated to 3801 when she failed in Perth in 1988 on the Bicentennial train and replaced with a spare.

 

Not everything is owned by the state government. Yes, some of the stock owned by THNSW is still technically in the ownership of the railways, but a high majority of locomotives and stock at the museum are owned by the museum. The Lachlan Valley Railway locomotives are owned by the LVR, The ARHS ACT locomotives are owned by the ARHS ACT etc. and all need money to be restored, regardless of if you get a cab ride (or something else) out of it or not. An exclusive ticket on the first train hauled by the engine once restored might be a better and more realistic incentive.

 

As to the decision to paint 3526 in Caves Express Blue, this was decided by the museum and has been planned for a bit of time. I can see both sides of the argument over the livery-yes, it isn't accurate to how the engine ran in it's current condition, but it represents a significant section of it's history. Personally, I'd love to see it in Green, and it may happen in the not-too-distant future, being the only livery not worn in preservation.

 

And if it was decreed that 3526 was to be moved to Broadmeadow, there is something we can do about it, which is say 'no'. Broadmeadow is currently being used to accommodate stock that can't be stored at Thirlmere due to a lack of space, but is being looked into becoming a museum in it's own right, as an associated branch of THNSW. And the Office of Rail Heritage no longer exist, due to the new heritage structure in place with Transport Heritage NSW. Knowing the CEO, a former President of the NSWRTM, he will not be decreeing that 3526 be moved at any point in the near future.

[gazmanjack]

There is one thing I don't understand about painting 3526 in 'Caves Express Blue'.  If 3526 was never painted in that livery, wouldn't the money and time spent in the repaint be better utilised on other restoration jobs at the museum...??

 

Cheers, Gary.

[69843]

The argument is that 3526 was never painted Caves Express Blue in her current form.

 

3526 IS one of three originally painted Caves Express Blue, the other two being 3506 and 3535

[DavidB-AU]

The argument is that 3526 was never painted Caves Express Blue in her current form.

No operational preserved loco ever wore a regular service livery in their current form. In their current form they have Hasler speed recorders, often auto couplers instead of screw, steel fireboxes instead of copper, ashpan flushers, etc. All sorts of modifications without which they just wouldn't be allowed to run.

 

I have no problem with it being painted blue. It would be even better if there was a set of blue and cream set of L cars behind it, even if it's not the original set 86.

 

Cheers

David

[69843]

No operational preserved loco ever wore a regular service livery in their current form. In their current form they have Hasler speed recorders, often auto couplers instead of screw, steel fireboxes instead of copper, ashpan flushers, etc. All sorts of modifications without which they just wouldn't be allowed to run.

 

I have no problem with it being painted blue. It would be even better if there was a set of blue and cream set of L cars behind it, even if it's not the original set 86.

 

Cheers

David

More referring to the fact that the NN/35 class went through a major change after the Caves Express days-point taken though.

 

As to a set, that might take work, but there is a plan afoot involving the locomotive and a car recently repainted Blue/Cream at a certain 100yo roundhouse....I shall say no more

[DavidB-AU]

6029 has moved under its own power for the first time in 33 years.

 

 

Cheers

David

[69843]

That will be one heck of a sight when she comes up here.....

[69843]

ABC report on the return to steam of 6029:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/largest-steam-train-in-southern-hemisphere-restored/5625328

[gazmanjack]

Brilliant. Can't wait to see her on the rails. Last time I seen 6029, a few months ago, she was missing her pistons, obviously for refurbishment. These were sitting on pallets near the workshop area.

 

 

 

Cheers, Gary.

[69843]

Those are some lovely photos Gary.

 

I was lucky enough to have a word to one of the restoration crew late last year when they fired on a Heritage Express trip, and you could just see how enthusiastic he was about the project from the way he was talking. It truly is a milestone in Australian Railway preservation, and will be an excellent crowd puller.

 

I do know Maitland Steamfest and Valley Heights are two places that they intend taking it once it is registered, and assaults on Cowan Bank and Como Bank (depending on a few factors for Como) are planned, and I have had word from a well connected friend that it may return to it's old stomping grounds of Fassifern bank in the near future as well.

 

Things are really shaping back up for NSW preserved steam after the lull of the past few years.

[69843]

Some more footage of 6029:

 

Note the rear power unit slipping while the front one remains steady

[69843]

Even more footage of 6029, this time from Tickhole Productions:

[DavidB-AU]

BB18¼ 1079 is back in service after a 2 year overhaul. She worked the Ekka shuttles this weekend after the C17 failed on the transfer run to Mayne on Thursday.
 

 

 
The Ekka steam train runs again on Wednesday and next weekend.
 
Cheers
David

[69843]

A wonderful bit of footage by Bevan Wall of the two 38ers running parallel, from the cab of 3830

[DavidB-AU]

This was last month but I have only just seen the video. Notice how much 380t of locomotives shake the ground at 2:54.

 

 

Cheers

David

[DavidB-AU]

6029's first main line test run.

 

 

Cheers

David

[DavidB-AU]

X217 was restored (relatively) recently by the Richmond Vale Railway.

 

 

Cheers

David

[DavidB-AU]

5917 on a private charter to Lithgow.

 

 

Cheers

David