Metropolitan Railway/London Transport class E and F locomotives

[Alex TM]

Hi folks,

 

I have been sitting looking through my copy of Red Panniers, and another of colour photos of the last days of steam on the underground and am interested to know more about the above two classes with a view of trying to build one of each.  Despite searching online and going through the above books I can find no dimensions beyond driving wheel size!  Plenty of history is available, and photos from every useful angle but no drawings or dimensions.  I am aware of the SEF kits for both classes but they are a bit out of my price range at the moment.

 

In light of that can anyone help in sourcing drawings, etc of these?  Someone elsewhere has suggested trying 'Workhorses of the Underground' but it's out of print and there are none on the usual online retailers at the moment.

 

Any help will be truly appreciated.

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Alex.

[GoingUnderground]

Hi Alex,

 

The Pannier is a 2013 model from Bachmann as part of their re-released Midnight Metropolitan Train Set. You may be able to pick one up quite cheaply if broken out from a set. Failing that, buy a secondhand Bachmann 57xx and repaint it.

 

SE Finecase make kits of both the E and F classes, but as you said you're aware of these.

 

You can find more information on sources of information on Met and LT locos in the London Underground area in the Special Interest area of RM Web.

[Metr0Land]

I was looking for a copy of 'Workhorses....' for while.  If you're patient one will probably turn up on that well known auction site or a 2nd hand seller at a reasonable price  before too long.  IIRC it was about 4 months wait for me.

[Alex TM]

Hi folks,

 

Thanks for your responses.

 

I have one of the Bachmann 'Midnight Metropolitan' sets, in part due to my wife routinely pointing it out in model shops.  As you will gather from the OP I am wanting to add some locos to go with it (as well as another couple of Panniers  ).  Taking inspiration from the 'Highland Bodgery' http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67934-highland-bodgery/ thread on this forum, I thought about using a rtr chassis with either a scratchbuilt or converted body from something else.  I am not too fussed about deadly accuracy as long as I can build something that captures the feel of the real loco.  Drawings, however, would at least allow me to get the proportions and general dimensions along the right lines.

 

The LU section of RMWeb has been fantastic for giving me ideas and avoiding a few dead-ends (e.g. brake vans, and ballast hoppers).

 

As for the book, I'll keep watching for it; it's recommended in the wagon appendix of the Red Panniers book (itself full of inspiration).

 

Again, many thanks for your comments.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Jeff Smith]

There is a double page describing the E class in The London Underground Surface Stock Planbook 1863-1959 by Ian Huntley.  Long out of print but includes a two view 4mm drawing.  Metropolitan Steam Locomotives by Frank Goudie, also probably out of print, includes chapters on both the E and F classes but no drawings.  Send me a personal message if you want copies.  The F class was withdrawn by 1957 with the E hanging on until 1963.  Strictly speaking there was barely any overlap between the F class and the first Panniers but as photographic evidence exists in Red Panniers of the original L90 with an unidentified F class in the shed in 1957.......

[Jeff Smith]

Perhaps this thread should be moved to London Underground?

[Alex TM]

Hi Jeff,

 

Many thanks for the book references.  A few others have suggested these but, as you suggest, they are out of print.  That said, I am on friendly terms with a couple of specialised dealers so hopefully will pick them up at some point this year.

 

As for a home for this thread, perhaps a move to the LU area would be appropriate especially if this thread develops further.

 

Again, many thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

PS.  PM sent.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I thought about using a rtr chassis with either a scratchbuilt or converted body from something else.  I am not too fussed about deadly accuracy as long as I can build something that captures the feel of the real loco...

 On that scheme, then what is available and announced in Southern RTR looks like your best friend. The E from a Hornby M7, pretty sure the 5'7" driver of the M7 is about right for the E; the F from Bachmann's announced E4, a loco of generally similar proportions.

[Metr0Land]

Apols if you know this already but sometimes it comes up on Amazon via sellers who display there.  (Some of these can be horrendously priced but sometimes ok).  Curr not available:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Workhorses-London-Underground-J-Graeme-Bruce/dp/0904711870/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370858838&sr=8-2&keywords=workhorses+of+london

[Alex TM]

Hi again folks,

 

First, thanks to whichever of the moderators who answered the request to move this on to the LU section.

 

I think the next question for me is where to begin with these.  Following on from the M& suggestion I had a look at it and would need to shorten the chassis at front and rear as it has a longer overhang.  As for the E4, I'll get round to having a look at the SEMG site for details.  At least these will be/are good DCC ready chassis.

 

I am not to concerned about the main structures of boiler, tanks, bunkers, etc but about fittings such as the chimney and dome.  Aside from asking SEF if they would supply some, does anyone know of a manufacturer that supplies brass replacements for the whitemetal ones in the kits?

 

Once more, many thanks for the help given.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Lord of Narnia]

_{Ian Huntley's book London Underground Surface Stock plan book has a few dimensions but these are mostly wheel centres and truck sizes etc.}

 

_{I have dimensions of an M7 which is similar but not identical}

[stadman]

I was looking for a copy of 'Workhorses....' for while.  If you're patient one will probably turn up on that well known auction site or a 2nd hand seller at a reasonable price  before too long.  IIRC it was about 4 months wait for me.

Having borrowed one from somebody via London Transport yahoo group I was then fortunate enough to find one on a 2nd hand booksellers stall at a model railway show (Reading O gauge trade show)

Not that it's really any help, but just saying they do turn up.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

I'll keep an eye out for the book.  There's a decent book dealer going to the Perth show this month, so I may drop him an email before going.

 

Again, thanks for all the prototype and modelling help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[roythebus]

Why bother messing about trying to convert something when Finecast do perfectly good kits for these locos? I too produced a kit for the F class, but sold the patterns to Finecast a few years ago.

 

Many years back I converted a Triang M7 to look like an E class, and it looked quite good for its day!

 

Somewhere around I have the LT works drawing of the E class. Don't ask me to copy it, it far too big to fit most copiers.

[Alex TM]

Hi Roythebus,

 

Having seen pics of built examples of the SEF kits, they do look good.  As said in the OP, though, cost comes into it at the moment.  I can often pick up very good quality used locos at a reasonable price so the chassis part is sorted for me.  I also would appreciate the challenge of scratchbuilding or converting a body as it has been a very long time since I have done any really serious modelling of that kind.

 

Always liked the Triang M7 and Hornby J83 models as I worked them into something passable as both Caley and NBR 0-4-4Ts and a Caley 782 class respectively.  These days I wish I had kept them.

 

Thanks again for you input.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[L49]

Hi Roythebus,

 

Having seen pics of built examples of the SEF kits, they do look good.  As said in the OP, though, cost comes into it at the moment.  I can often pick up very good quality used locos at a reasonable price so the chassis part is sorted for me.  I also would appreciate the challenge of scratchbuilding or converting a body as it has been a very long time since I have done any really serious modelling of that kind.

 

Always liked the Triang M7 and Hornby J83 models as I worked them into something passable as both Caley and NBR 0-4-4Ts and a Caley 782 class respectively.  These days I wish I had kept them.

 

Thanks again for you input.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Hi Alex,

 

I have scratchbuilt my F class (see the avatar) on a J83 chassis. the wheels are too small, but the spacing is right, and like you say, I don't have the money to splash on whitemetal kits, nor these days on Romford wheels!

 

I am in the middle of rebuilding an old Tri-Ang M7 which turned up in a box at home into an E class. It is a bit of a bodge, especially due to the height of the XO4 in the boiler, which has led to the boiler being pitched a bit high.

 

I did a sketch drawing which I posted on here a while ago. Here is a link

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=267683

 

I'm afraid it only shows basic superstructure detail, as I was working from the Ian Huntley drawing for the fine details and fittings. I have found an Alan Gibson 02 chimney with a slice ground out of the middle made a passable chimney for the F class.

 

I'll get some pics of the E and the F posted so you can see how they came out.

[James Harrison]

Isn't the J83 chassis also used under the Hornby pannier tanks?  Just asking so as to make an ebay search for a suitable chassis for an 'F' as wide yet specific as possible. 

[Alex TM]

Hi James,

 

The short answer is , 'yes'.  A longer answer would include, to the best of my knowledge, the J52, 3F ('Jinty'), 08 ('railroad' and DCC train set version), 'Thomas', and E2 (although most likely on an older Margate version of the chassis with open frame motor and shiney wheels).

 

Hope that's of help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[James Harrison]

Good to know, thanks.  I'm sure ebay will have one of those around.

 

~Addendum~

 

For a shade over £20 I bought an 08 chassis and a set of 4F wheels.  Another project for next year then.

[L49]

I haven't had chance to get a picture of the M7-E class conversion yet, but this is my attempt at an F class on a budget. I have to admit I left the wheels well alone, I know they are undersize on the Hornby chassis, but at least I knew that she would work!

 

 

[Lord of Narnia]

You can be very proud of that sir.

[James Harrison]

That is a very nice piece of work.  For my own F class I'm leaving the chassis block and motor well alone, just changing the wheels over.

[Alex TM]

Hi folks,

 

L49, that is a very nice piece of work.  Would you be able to tell us a bit more about how you built it?  If this is typical of your work then I will certainly look forward to seeing your E class.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[sparks]

Very nice work L49. I had seen pictures of it on other threads and assumed it was a kit!

[L49]

Thanks everyone! The F class was the second go I had at building one. If anything I preferred the first attempt, as I used Alan Gibson N7 chassis etches and the right sized wheels. She looked great until I offered her up to a Met brake van, and realised that I had forgotten to reduce the ride height on the chassis to compensate for the larger wheels. Once I corrected the height, she never worked again, and now sits in a box waiting to be resurrected at some future date with a new chassis!

 

The body is all plasticard, with fittings adapted from the old Alan Gibson 02 castings. The biggest problem I have with her is the sprung rear axle on the modern Hornby chassis, which requires quite a bit of weight to stop her riding nose down. I have had to basically fill the top of the bunker with lead shot.

 

So far there has not been any problem with warping, which is my greatest fear with Plasticard. I will have to get some shots of the K class which was built in a similar way, with a lot of help from an old Bachmann N class, as I'm not up to doing taper boilers from scratch yet!