First go at handbuilt point

[Ramblin Rich]

Cheers 'polybear' - I don't actually have the guages yet, as I said this was set up visually over a Templot 00-SF printout & using the Maygib wheels to check clearances etc. They're the next thing to get. I'm in a hiatus again at the moment, don't want to make any more until I know what space will be available & I've finalised a trackplan!

[hayfield]

Polybear

 

I use your gauges quite a lot, in fact the last 3 jobs I have done in 00 have been in 00-SF (except for an old style 00 gauge code 100 flat bottom rail slip) have been in 00-SF, one set because finer wing and check rail gaps were required, secondly with another a curved crossing only works in 00-SF (16.2) and not 00 (16.5) 

 

In my humble opinion those who use modern models with the finer scale wheels would benefit with better quality running by using 00-SF through the crossings.

 

One bit of constructive comment with your gauges, the 3 point ones are fine, but the roller gauges would benefit from being made in a much wider diameter rod, having said that the quality of the metal used is far superior than other gauges I have bought elsewhere (other gauges). Thanks for making them available

[Ramblin Rich]

I didn't realise, is 'polbear' actually Brian Tulley then?  

If so, I'll be in touch re supply of gauges, but can you also supply or recommend a decent back-to-back gauge?

[polybear]

Polybear

 

I use your gauges quite a lot, in fact the last 3 jobs I have done in 00 have been in 00-SF (except for an old style 00 gauge code 100 flat bottom rail slip) have been in 00-SF, one set because finer wing and check rail gaps were required, secondly with another a curved crossing only works in 00-SF (16.2) and not 00 (16.5) 

 

In my humble opinion those who use modern models with the finer scale wheels would benefit with better quality running by using 00-SF through the crossings.

 

One bit of constructive comment with your gauges, the 3 point ones are fine, but the roller gauges would benefit from being made in a much wider diameter rod, having said that the quality of the metal used is far superior than other gauges I have bought elsewhere (other gauges). Thanks for making them available

Hi John,

It's good to know they're being put to good use

It's also pleasing to hear that 00-sf is of benefit - I still recall the "shock -horror" gauge wars when 16.2mm was first mentioned on RMWeb not so long ago...

I understand your thoughts regarding the diameter of the roller gauges; the roller gauges first started off with the 16.2mm variant originally manufactured in the USA by Russ Simpson (sadly no longer with us) - Russ aparrently made a lot of the models used in the Star Wars films.  Around this time I was working on a design (which much help from Martin Wynne) for a 3-point Gauge, as well as a 15.2mm roller gauge; the 15.2mm gauge was based on the same basic format as the 16.2mm one - hence the similar dimensions.  So when Russ died it seemed sensible to continue manufacture of a 16.2mm gauge in order to ensure a full set of gauges were still available.  Increasing the basic diameter of the roller gauges would present no problems in theory - obviously it would present cost implications however (have you seen the price of brass lately?  ).  However, the smaller diameter of the existing gauges may well have some benefit when working in confined areas and/or checking the track gauge on trackwork already laid perhaps?

Finally, many thanks for your comments regarding the quality of the gauges; I only wish I could take the credit for that one.  I was just very fortunate to find a very good machine shop working on aerospace components that was prepared to take on small jobs on CNC at a sensible price - sadly not easy to find nowadays

 

polybear

[polybear]

I didn't realise, is 'polbear' actually Brian Tulley then?  

If so, I'll be in touch re supply of gauges, but can you also supply or recommend a decent back-to-back gauge?

 

Hi RR,

That's me.  Keep it to yourself though...

All Gauges are currently in stock, apart from the 1mm Crossing Flangeway Gauges - the price from the supplier increased significantly to the point where I felt that cheaper alternatives could be sourced by the individual elsewhere.

Insofar as a decent B2B Gauge is concerned, you'll be hard pushed to find a better one than the GW Models version (01903 767231) which is adjustable (i.e. you can set it for different makes of wheelset, such as RTR, Markits, Alan Gibson etc.).  HOWEVER, the Gauge as standard is just a little too wide (when set to it's minimum dimension) to cater for 00-sf.  When I ordered mine from George Watts I asked him to make me a slightly thinner one (starting at about 14.1 or 14.2mm from memory - if you send me a p.m. reminder I'll measure mine tonite) - George did this at no extra cost; 00-sf B2B is (from memory) 14.3/14.4mm, depending on wheelset manufacturer (I'm sure Martin W. will correct me on this If I got the dimensions wrong..) .  HTH

 

polybear

[martin_wynne]

00-sf B2B is (from memory) 14.3/14.4mm, depending on wheelset manufacturer (I'm sure Martin W. will correct me on this If I got the dimensions wrong..)

 

Hi Brian,

 

14.3mm is the minimum, for checking existing wheels. With the gauge set to 14.3mm it must clear all wheels intended for 00-SF.

 

When setting wheels:

 

RTR wheels set to 14.4mm.

 

RP25/110 wheels (NMRA H0) set to 14.4mm.

 

Markits, Alan Gibson, etc., set to 14.5mm (EM minus 2).

 

RP25/88 wheels (EMGS) set to 14.5mm (EM minus 2).

 

Some wheels with thinner flanges (Ultrascale?) can be set to 14.6mm.

 

The important dimension is back-to-flange which must not exceed 15.2mm. That means from the back of one wheel to the front of the flange on the opposite wheel.

 

If you have the 00-SF check gauge tool it is easy to make a checking fixture -- make a very short length (say 1") of copper-clad track and add a check rail on one side. Hold the wheels on the rails and hold one wheel firm against the check rail. Lift it all up to the light and check that you can just see the merest glimmer of daylight between the other wheel flange and the side of the rail. If it is more than a glimmer, you could safely increase the back-to-back a little for better running. If you can't see any daylight (i.e. the flange is hard against the rail) you must reduce the back-to-back until you can. 

 

regards,

 

Martin. 

[polybear]

The important dimension is back-to-flange which must not exceed 15.2mm. That means from the back of one wheel to the front of the flange on the opposite wheel.

 

If you have the 00-SF check gauge tool it is easy to make a checking fixture -- make a very short length (say 1") of copper-clad track and add a check rail on one side. Hold the wheels on the rails and hold one wheel firm against the check rail. Lift it all up to the light and check that you can just see the merest glimmer of daylight between the other wheel flange and the side of the rail. If it is more than a glimmer, you could safely increase the back-to-back a little for better running. If you can't see any daylight (i.e. the flange is hard against the rail) you must reduce the back-to-back until you can. 

 

regards,

 

Martin. 

 

Thanks Martin - here's one I made earlier - apologies for the dodgy picture quality

 

[hayfield]

Hi RR,

That's me.  Keep it to yourself though...

All Gauges are currently in stock, apart from the 1mm Crossing Flangeway Gauges - the price from the supplier increased significantly to the point where I felt that cheaper alternatives could be sourced by the individual elsewhere.

Insofar as a decent B2B Gauge is concerned, you'll be hard pushed to find a better one than the GW Models version (01903 767231) which is adjustable (i.e. you can set it for different makes of wheelset, such as RTR, Markits, Alan Gibson etc.).  HOWEVER, the Gauge as standard is just a little too wide (when set to it's minimum dimension) to cater for 00-sf.  When I ordered mine from George Watts I asked him to make me a slightly thinner one (starting at about 14.1 or 14.2mm from memory - if you send me a p.m. reminder I'll measure mine tonite) - George did this at no extra cost; 00-sf B2B is (from memory) 14.3/14.4mm, depending on wheelset manufacturer (I'm sure Martin W. will correct me on this If I got the dimensions wrong..) .  HTH

 

polybear

 

 

Polybear

 

I think the check rail gauges came off Ebay and the rest from you the quality is very good. Unlike the 3 point P4 gauges I bought from Alan Gibson which are fine for copperclad or ply and rivet construction, sadly without modification they do not work with C&L & Exactoscale plastic chairs, due to the depth of the slots (deeper than yours) which hold the rails  (they hold the rail vertical instead or the 1 in 20 angle) Thankfully the 3 point gauges from you keep the rail at the correct angle.

 

As I build turnouts both in copperclad and plastic chair methods, I have come across both the good and bad in gauge construction. The best gauges I have are some Brooke Smith which have a black finish, yours come a very close second to these.

 

The problems I have come across in gauges are as follows.

 

Steel gauges soon rust when used with a soldering iron (either copperclad construction or building common and obtuse (K) crossings). And should be made from 10 mm diameter bar

 

As I have said 3 point and Roller gauges should be compatible with C&L and Exactoscale chairs

 

Roller gauges should have flats filed on them for use through common crossings and check rails, and at one end no check rail flange (if any at all)

 

Flange rail gauges from a metal (or finish) that is not affected by flux too much.

 

Not grumbling too much and thanks for making the products available 

[Brian Harrap]

Hello Rich, I've only just come across this thread. Well done indeed and full marks for not being afraid to have a go just using a wheelset to set everything up. More can be learnt about the crossing and check rail relationship than any amount of gauges will teach you, not that they aren't very useful in the grand scheme of things. All of my multigauge trackwork was built by the 'try a wheelset through it' method. Keep up the good work, Brian.  Ps If you like, when you've gained a bit more experience I'll show you how to make totally invisible insulation gaps. B

[Ramblin Rich]

Thanks, Brian - positive words from 'the track master' are very encouraging!   My second set of images are very poor, but I did use a grinding wheel to remove the copperclad, rather than cutting a slot, so it's not too obvious. I'd certainly be interested to know how you deal with it.

I'm in two minds whether to go on & paint this one (with the lumpy soldering etc) to see how it looks, or try another one to see if I can neaten things up - as I said though, I don't really want to proceed much further without knowing what plan I'm working towards, which depends on our loft space being improved (which doesn't seem to have any progress at the moment...    )

[Brian Harrap]

Thanks, Brian - positive words from 'the track master' are very encouraging!   My second set of images are very poor, but I did use a grinding wheel to remove the copperclad, rather than cutting a slot, so it's not too obvious. I'd certainly be interested to know how you deal with it.

I'm in two minds whether to go on & paint this one (with the lumpy soldering etc) to see how it looks, or try another one to see if I can neaten things up - as I said though, I don't really want to proceed much further without knowing what plan I'm working towards, which depends on our loft space being improved (which doesn't seem to have any progress at the moment...    )

Hello Rich, yes paint it up - see what it looks like. I'm off to the Hartlepool show just now, will get back to you on gaps next week. In the meantime see this pic of how cc sleepering can look. BTW I'm not entering into any discussion about dimensions, track gauge(s) or jigs etc. Brian.

[polybear]

Polybear

 

I think the check rail gauges came off Ebay and the rest from you the quality is very good.

 

As I build turnouts both in copperclad and plastic chair methods, I have come across both the good and bad in gauge construction. The best gauges I have are some Brooke Smith which have a black finish, yours come a very close second to these.

 

Roller gauges should have flats filed on them for use through common crossings and check rails, and at one end no check rail flange (if any at all)

 

Not grumbling too much and thanks for making the products available 

 

Hi John,

 

Many thanks; when I was originally seeking a manufacturer for the 15.2mm Gauges (I was hoping that Russ Simpson in the USA could do them, bearing in mind he was already doing the 16.2mm Gauges - however this was around the time Russ became ill and I was unable to contact him, not realising the circumstances) one of the people I contacted (a retired Toolmaker/Patternmaker, from memory) was asked to quote me a price.  Unfortunately he was in turn getting them made by a third party - who actually manufactured a full batch without being asked to do so at this stage.  For various reasons I decided to go with another manufacturer (the current one); the "2nd Party" (for want of a better term) was understandably upset at this, bearing in mind his friend expected to be paid for a full batch of Gauges that were unsolicited.  Rather than risk losing a friendship he paid up.  Whilst I felt that I was not at fault in all this (I only asked for a price, nothing more) I offered to take a look at the Gauges and , if all was well, come to some form of agreement and purchase them for use as a "second batch". 

 

However, whilst the Gauges were beautifully machined from Stainless Steel (not an easy thing to do) I found that the rail slots were not to drawing and were too narrow to suit the rail width (based on C&L Code 75 Bullhead Rail); unfortunately I had no choice but to reject the batch.  The "2nd Party" then (as far as I'm aware) remachined the batch of Gauges himself and then sold them off via Ebay in order to recover his costs (I haven't seen any advertised via Ebay for probably two years now, so hopefully he achieved this).

 

With regard to the flats on Roller Gauges - agreed; the original 00-sf 16.2mm Roller Gauges lacked these, but I introduced them when I took over production (having learnt that flats were needed and consequently filed my own Gauges to suit).

 

Finally, many thanks for your comments regarding my Gauges - coming a close second to Joe Brooke-Smith is good enough for me!

 

polybear

[polybear]

Thanks, Brian - positive words from 'the track master' are very encouraging!   My second set of images are very poor, but I did use a grinding wheel to remove the copperclad, rather than cutting a slot, so it's not too obvious. I'd certainly be interested to know how you deal with it.

I'm in two minds whether to go on & paint this one (with the lumpy soldering etc) to see how it looks, or try another one to see if I can neaten things up - as I said though, I don't really want to proceed much further without knowing what plan I'm working towards, which depends on our loft space being improved (which doesn't seem to have any progress at the moment...    )

 

Hi Rich,

I've seen very nice insulation gaps done on Copperclad by Colin Craig (of 4mm flat-bottom etched track components fame) using a sanding disc (drum?) in a Dremel Drill mounted in a drill stand, which were practically invisible once painted.

 

Brian - I'd be very interested to know more about your techniques used to detail copper-clad sleepers, pretty please....

 

polybear

[Brian Harrap]

 

Brian - I'd be very interested to know more about your techniques used to detail copper-clad sleepers, pretty please....

 

polybear

Coming back to you soon, Brian.

[Brian Harrap]

Hello Rich and Polybear,

Here as promised is how I do my invisible insulation gaps in copperclad sleepering. I always use the fibreglass base type, much more robust. As you will gather, I expect, I treat each individual sleeper as a small model in its own right and make up each one to suit its intended location, especially on turnouts. The performance I go through isn't particularly arduous and whilst it may not be to everones taste, I like it. I also like to very slightly take the sharp edges off the 'as they come' sleeper strips especially the cut ends, I think they (the sleepers as finished) look more lived in then, suiting the more unloved type of track I prefer to model. I hope this may be of some interest to you both.

Best regards and happy trackbuilding, Brian.

[Ramblin Rich]

Great stuff, Brian - as you say, each sleeper an individual model! Obviously, there must still be enough copper left for the solder to bond onto.  I presume you check for 'non-conductance' as each sleeper is done.

Love the term 'graunching' by the way.... 

[OzzyRob]

Brian, they are simply the best looking sleepers I have seen. I'm in awe.

[Brian Harrap]

Great stuff, Brian - as you say, each sleeper an individual model! Obviously, there must still be enough copper left for the solder to bond onto.  I presume you check for 'non-conductance' as each sleeper is done.

Love the term 'graunching' by the way.... 

Yes each one tested as I go along. usually enough copper left to solder, if not the superglue comes out, Brian.

[Brian Harrap]

Brian, they are simply the best looking sleepers I have seen. I'm in awe.

Thanks Ozzy, don't be in awe, give it a go, its easy really, Brian.

[bazza.]

Having seen it used on "Eastwood Town" (amongst others), I was intrigued and impressed by the ideas behind 00-SF, 16.2mm gauge, mainly narrowing the crossing gaps to give better visual looks and less jolting of the wheels, but still keeping the back-to-back measurements at 14.5mm. I thought it would be a good standard to adopt for the pointwork in my planned for layout, combined with standard bullhead flexi track (SMP or C&L) for the plain track.

As I'm waiting for the loft space work to be done, I thought it was a good idea to build a trial point as a test of

a/ my abilities and

b/ the viability with my stock

I downloaded Templot (Big thanks to Martin Wynne for making this so useful!) and printed a B6 template. 

It took me about a week of evenings to get this far, but I'm quite satisfied with how it's turned out (pardon the pun!).

 

full B6.JPG

 

The crossing vee was made as per Brian Harrap's method - bend the rail over, bend one leg out to the correct angle, solder up then file off to give the correct point.

 

At this stage, I have not bought the various gauges to help with track building, so I've used lengths of 1mm copperclad to align the crossing rails, then set the other wing rails by using a set of Maygib wheels pushed over so the flange just misses the crossing nose & set the wing rails just touching the back of the opposite wheel. A but ropey (!) but seems to work

 

crossing.JPG

 

The switch blades were marked at the planing length, then carefully tapered down to give the right shape, checking for fit often. I made sure the left hand diverging rail was 'set' at an angle & did my best to match the planing of the left switch blade to align with the angle.

 

switch left.JPG

 

switch right.JPG

 

I've used the method suggested here for the tiebar, basically 2 lengths of wire taken out horizontally and attached to a gapped length of copperclad at the side - this allows the gap of the blades to be set quite easily before soldering. 

 

switch mech.JPG

 

 

I'm sure this can be attached to whatever method of operation is chosen - I think I'll be using wire in tube or something similar - and then hidden by a dummy point motor or hand lever.

 

switch side.JPG

 

Having tried with a short wheelbase wagon, the lack of jolting over the crossing is very reassuring. My Bachmann and Heljan stock seem fine. Although I haven't unpacked any Hornby stock yet, I was amazed that a Lima 31 seemed to have the right back-to-back to got through, although the flange depth might be an issue if there's any big solder lumps

 

The only big issue now is the dodgy soldering needs tidying up & to cut the insulation joints to try it 'live'

 

My impressions overall? The ability to 'tweak' the positioning slightly is an advantage of copperclad, although if I used the proper gauges it might not be so necessary. Perhaps the next thing to try is using glued plastic chairs instead of soldering. I'm confident I can get better at this; actually I am faintly amazed that I can do something once I stop prevaricating!  And the fact that Sazzle thinks I'm mad for doing it and that it wouldn't work - well

Hi Rich,

 

Just picked up this thread. Good looking first turnout, and I like your tiebar method. Your first turnout is always going to be the hardest to make, and you made yours with out gauges, wow!  Of all the hand made turnous that I have seen made, I have never seen nor thought of a turnout tiebar method like yours, I like it.

 

I model in P4 using code 75 bullhead rail so I have no choice but to make my own turnouts which are fun to make.

 

I only use three gauges, a triangular track and gauge widening gauge, a check rail gauge, and a crossing flangway gauge for the Joe Brooke-Smiths method of rail soldered to brass rivets in plywood sleepers, for my trackwork.  

 

Just one small bit of advice, When I file the switch rails for my turnous, at the tip of the switch rail I file the head/top down about .75 mm at a shallow angle for about 2mm so that it tucks in under the rail head of the stock rail to reduce the chance of a wheel flange striking the tip of switch rail.

 

And also thanks to Brian, I will try his wood graining method on copper clad sleepers to enhance the wood grain effect on my plywood sleepers.

 

With the long nights of winter here, I have just completed a A7 turnout, my next project which I have been putting off making for a while is a B6 L/H Double Junction turnout.

 

All the best with your track making.

 

Regards

 

Bazza

[Savoyard]

I am just in the process of replacing all the steel rail with nickel silver on the Tottiington section of my Holcombe Brook and Tottington layout and there are four points on this section, the first two were done in the traditional way but having read this thread and talking to Brian at Hartlepool the last one was done using the same method.

 

 

I use an alternative method of tiebar, it is based on some I bought from Borg Rail but I was not impressed with the quality of them, nothing like pictures on the website. The method uses a small piece of copper clad and nickel silver wire, below are the two points on Tottington I have just completed (though the photo highlights some bits that need a little further work). I will do a thread on how I produce them.

 

 

Thanks Rich for the post and well done. About the time you started the post I had just started to re-rail the Tottington section and I have learnt a new skill using wooden sleepers and plastic chairs, I will not be abe to go back to ready built track again.

[Savoyard]

I am in the process of making new 3rd rail housing for my layout using 1/8" plastic square tube, I decided to make it look a little more like wood using Brian's method above and it really tranforms it in to a wooden box, see my Holcombe Brook thread for some pics. Thanks Brian for another great idea.

[bcnPete]

Well done Rich - Great to see you heading in this direction

 

Keep going...