We need traders for our annual exhibition!

[fodmrc]

Hi there,

 

Just got back from our exhibition committee meeting for the Lydney Model Railway Show which takes place on the last weekend of September this year!

 

Great news in that we are have confirmed 15 layouts and awaiting confirmation of six more!

 

However, our trade support is limited to just two as opposed to six last year.

 

To date, we have a local model railway shop to provide new goods and a well known local second hand dealer.

 

We need some specialist traders who can accept a total estimated footfall of between 500 and 600 over the two days.

 

All recommendations are welcome!

 

Any traders on the forum can contact our exhibition manager at www.fodmrc.co.uk/contactus.htm

[bike2steam]

You think you got problems, same here, good rtr traders are becoming more selective, or, like 2 of our local(ish) ones, dropping out of shows completely. There now are none within 50 miles of here (Blandford) that can put on a decent varied  new rtr/kits/parts exhibition stand.

[Mallard60022]

Comet are just up the road. 

 

P

[Dagworth]

Eileen's Emporium are now pretty local to you as they are based just outside Gloucester.

 

Andi

[dagrizz]

Rural Railways are in Shropshire and do kits&bits - they are often present at exhibitions.

 

Graham

[ngtrains.com]

We need some specialist traders who can accept a total estimated footfall of between 500 and 600 over the two days.

 

 

Well, that pretty much explains the lack of trade support.

 

Simply isn't enough to justify the expense for a trader to turn up. Its even worse when you consider that the show (guessing here, never been) is a general show catering to all scales and that a proportion of those turning up with be families or at least Dad and the kids,

Specialist trade and a general show drawing from a local catchment area just don't do it in terms of potential spend.

 

Allow me to illustrate

Cost =   Stand, Diesel, Accommodation and meals, staff costs  lets say  £80, £50, £50, £160     Total £340

Takings    £1360,   Margin averages 25%  profit £340  

 

So, very simplistically our example has to take £1360 to just cover the cost of the show. That doesn't finance restocking, overheads and all the other demands on the business. If the trader is VAT registered it gets worse and in truth the cost are probably higher.

This has lead me to two conclusions

 

1. You can make more money by staying at home.
2. A two day show is unsustainable with those attendances

All the specialist shows I attend have now opted for the one day format. Those that were two have dropped to one and the ones that have always been one are resolutely staying at one. The two day show just cost more in every respect for little gain.

 

I do wonder if the model show, or at least the smaller local one, is becoming non-viable because of the financial pressures.

Consider: -

 

• Entrance Fee    Can't put it up or attendance will drop. This forum has enough messages whining on about the cost of admission
• Hall rent.            Whoever the hall is rented from will be facing increased costs. Local Council venues which may have once had low prices are balancing there books by increasing the rents
• Costs                 All the exhibits will be costing more in expenses for travel, vehicle hire, fuel and accommodation

So we have a fixed income against increasing cost which leaves one thing left to squeeze. The trade!  There seems to be a growing trend to try and balance these books by increasing the stand rental to the trader. Some, frankly, tin pot shows are charging ridiculous rents to try an close their funding loop,

 

However, the trader is suffering increased cost for everything, reduced margins from trying to compete and then either falling attendances and falling spend at shows.

 

The only conclusion for the trader can be to not bother.

I realise this doesn't help you but it may explain the change in circumstances

 

 

(just one final comment -  all of the above is a very generalised comment not aimed at any one show or specific circumstances. Every show will have different circumstances)

 

[bike2steam]

That I can agree with, having been a trader myself until 2005. But the trouble with one day shows is that owners of large layouts will find it not worthwhile to go for just one day when it includes putting up, and breaking down - too much like hard work.

[Neil]

.... So we have a fixed income against increasing cost which leaves one thing left to squeeze. The trade!  There seems to be a growing trend to try and balance these books by increasing the stand rental to the trader. Some, frankly, tin pot shows are charging ridiculous rents to try an close their funding loop,

 

However, the trader is suffering increased cost for everything, reduced margins from trying to compete and then either falling attendances and falling spend at shows.

 

The only conclusion for the trader can be to not bother.

I realise this doesn't help you but it may explain the change in circumstances

 

 

(just one final comment -  all of the above is a very generalised comment not aimed at any one show or specific circumstances. Every show will have different circumstances)

 

Though you admit to generalised comment Paul; I can't help but feel that the impression you give of show organisers seeing the trade as a cash cow ready to be milked is a bit wide of the mark. I've been involved with the organising of model railway exhibitions for nearly forty years now, big ones like the York show at Easter and small local events of the school or church hall genre. In my experience there's been an understanding that traders have a living to make and that their interests have to be considered for any show to have a long term future. Trade support has always been valued, to the extent that there's been genuine worry during quiet years that sufficient has been taken for them to feel attendance has been worthwhile and that a return booking for the next year will be made.

 

I've no doubt your costings will be spot on, or that some show organisers may see the trade as an easy source of revenue, but I'd contend that the vast majority of show organising teams have the interests of the trade at heart and that stand rents are part of the difficult financial balancing act they have to perform to get the show up and running.

[bike2steam]

-, or that some show organisers may see the trade as an easy source of revenue, but I'd contend that the vast majority of show organising teams have the interests of the trade at heart and that stand rents are part of the difficult financial balancing act they have to perform to get the show up and running.

That's why we charge traders a percentage of their takings, and depend on their honesty. If we perceive them as dishonest ( there are plenty keeping an eye out for 'tealeaves' or similar), they don't get invited again. In my time I've been all three ', landowner,gamekeeper, and poacher' in the hobby ( exhibition manager, exhibitor, trader) - which helps  . But I'll be very interested to read the other Paul's answer to your comment.

[Geoff Endacott]

Why do you need more traders - and why have four dropped out since last year?

 

If you can answer these questions you might be in a better position to know what to do next.

 

Geoff Endacott

[MartinWales]

A worthwhile point Geoff, and it may be down to natural wastage to an extent-possibly due to the reasons already alluded to, or just the fact that some traders may have 'wound up' their retail business.           

[Paul Cram]

Scaleforum is the last weekend in September and a lot of the specialist 4mm traders will no doubt be attending that. A look down the list and it would appear that all of the 4mm specialist will be there.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

When I talk to traders many are cutting down the number of shows they attend, I would think a footfall of 500-600 over a weekend is quite low, at Railex we have around 3000 people and even our local one day show Risex we have 600-800 people, as as has been said before a trader will only turn up if they are going to make some money. 

 

Think of the sort of show you are, a trader selling kits and bits is unlikely to sell to a familly, A modellers show is more likely to attract those who will spend money with traders. 

 

At Railex we are have a waiting list of traders who want to attend because we attract the sort of visitor they are likely to be able to sell to.

 

David

[queensquare]

You think you got problems, same here, good rtr traders are becoming more selective, or, like 2 of our local(ish) ones, dropping out of shows completely. There now are none within 50 miles of here (Blandford) that can put on a decent varied  new rtr/kits/parts exhibition stand.

 

Not the case, have you approached the Gascupboard  http://www.gascupboard.co.uk/index.asp

 

They are in Trowbridge, Wiltshire, about forty miles away.

 

Jerry

[bike2steam]

Not the case, have you approached the Gascupboard  http://www.gascupboard.co.uk/index.asp

 

They are in Trowbridge, Wiltshire, about forty miles away.

 

Jerry

That's a new one, not heard of those before, a bit late, space filled, but will keep them in mind for a future reference, thanks Jerry.

[ngtrains.com]

Oh Wow,  I didn't expect that much of a response. I didn't look at RM web yesterday so it was a bit of a surprise to log in this morning to find all the comments, likes and so on associated with my comments.

I suppose with that much of a response I had better offer some sort of a response.

 

Firstly, I should point out to those that don't know me that I have done exhibitions from all sides, organiser, exhibitor and trader so I have at least half an idea what I am talking about

 

I can't help but feel that the impression you give of show organisers seeing the trade as a cash cow ready to be milked is a bit wide of the mark

 

I don't think that is what I said.

 

What I pointed out is that there is a funding square (or some other suitable shape) that is all inter related and is becoming harder and harder to complete and that if you alter or fix one part of the equation the other elements have to alter to arrive at the same answer,

 

If you fix admission price, hall rent and expenses increase then the only way to arrive at the same answer is to increase stand rentals. Making the equation harder for the exhibition organiser would be falling admissions and for the trader falling spend and lower margins.

 

I know from my experience with shows that some shows set out to balance the books before the show opens with trade rent covering exhibition costs so that door money is theirs to keep. Equally there are some exhibitions whose finances are so bent out of shape that they rely on the trade rent and want it up front or they can't put the show on and then still make a loss (that example is just too stubborn to realise its dead but won't lie down). Added to that there are the shows that do it for charity and seem to think fleecing the trader for a rent beyond what the show justifies in terms of visitors/spend to bolster their donation to charity is acceptable,  If you think I am wide of the mark answer me this. How can two one day shows, both held in basically inappropriate school buildings (so I hypothesise the rent is about the same) with roughly the same attendance justify the difference between one charging £45 and the other £120 for the same size trade stand?

 

Just to counter that pessimistic view there are plenty of other excellent shows which support their organising club/group which make money some of which is re-invested back into the next years show or to provide a cushion for the bad year and which still manage to treat the traders well and charge stand rents that remains reasonable. Equally there are other exhibition organisers who consider part of charging a trader a rent is a contract to actually ensure they place punters in front of the stall. Last year we did a show where we ended up in a secret building they forgot to tell the visitors about. The event itself was busy but we were lonely. This year we're going for free with a promise of a place in the busier area.

 

I could identify actual shows to illustrate each of the examples above but I set out to make a generalised comment and to do so would undermine that.

 

That's why we charge traders a percentage of their takings, and depend on their honesty.

 

I have not come across that one. I like the idea as it means both sides have a share in the success or failure of the show. I don't see it catching on though as it would effectively require the show to be funded independently of door take/trader income or to at least have a sizeable slush fund they could call on for the year some disaster reduces the attendance.

 

 

I think the point I was trying to make was that the financial pressures are affecting everyone and that is forcing everyone to reconsider what they are doing and how they do it.  I could go on to suggest that there are too many exhibitions, too many preserved railways and so on but that is another discussion and one that financial pressures will sort out in the long run

[bike2steam]

I have not come across that one. I like the idea as it means both sides have a share in the success or failure of the show. I don't see it catching on though as it would effectively require the show to be funded independently of door take/trader income or to at least have a sizeable slush fund they could call on for the year some disaster reduces the attendance.

Good forward planning has seen our previous two shows come up with a healthy profit. With both having an income from traders + door takings = double the expenses, leaving the Town Museum ( a volunteer charity), and two other local charities coming off very well. All pre-show expenses being covered by well negotiated sponsorship.

But one aside, I hate treating the trading side of a show as a 'swap-meet', with far too many box shifters - boy you should hear the bitching that goes on at those type of shows.

[Neil]

..... I can't help but feel that the impression you give of show organisers seeing the trade as a cash cow .....

 

 

.... I don't think that is what I said. .....

 

Maybe not, but it was the impression that you gave. You painted a very bleak picture, with the conclusion that the only way for shows to balance the books is to squeeze the trader, what other inference should I have drawn? I'm heartened to find from your latest post that there's some hope for the model railway exhibition, a world where the glass is exclusively half empty is a dull one indeed.

[ngtrains.com]

But one aside, I hate treating the trading side of a show as a 'swap-meet', with far too many box shifters - boy you should hear the bitching that goes on at those type of shows.

 

Irrespective of whether I have my organiser, exhibitor, trader or punter hat on I am with you on that. I also have little time for more than one stand of second hand junk.

 

With my trader hat on I am reasonably specialised which will itself limit the shows I will do but the exhibition that gets my vote is the one that puts some effort into providing a balance of trade rather than competition

[David Bigcheeseplant]

That's why we charge traders a percentage of their takings, and depend on their honesty.

 

How on earth do you make that work, a trader won't know how well he has done until the end of the show, so do you collect the money till then, having a set trade fee means you can work out you income before the show, At Railex we invoice have payment a few weeks in advance, as when we collected the stand fee on the day it could take on a two day show well into the Sunday before we had it all.

 

David