For those interested in old cars.

[Dunsignalling]

50 minutes ago, craneman said:

I'm tempted to point out the obvious, namely that a car which was cheap and not very good then is now much the same except 80+ years older. I see nothing odd at all about low valuations!

 

If someone is interested in the cars that were affordable in that era it does at least mean that they are similarly affordable now, and you can enjoy the weekend tinkering experience that they required even then.

 

Purely a matter of supply and demand. Folk that remember them from their youth are mainly either gone or past driving and maintaining them.

 

The cars themselves are too slow to get out of their own way, need written notice to stop, and are only suitable/safe/tolerable for trips within 5 miles of home.

 

Even attending rallies etc., is only sensible on a trailer if any real distance is involved.

 

One needs an emotional connection to devote ones time to looking after a classic car, and very few under 70 are now certain what many of the pre-WW2 ones are without the assistance of Google!

 

The only small old cars that seem to buck the trend are the more cutesy variants of the Austin 7....

 

John

Edited September 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, alastairq said:

Trouble is, when they were 'new', although they were cheap [competition from others?] they were also darned good [for their day!]

Similarly placed [marketwise] cars of the 50s and 60s , of similar good condition, seem to fetch better prices.

The price and market when new bears little relationship to values on the old car market today.

[A reminder, one can get a megabux Bentley today, for less than the price of a second hand Focus]..

 

The pre-WW2 market seems to have deteriorated as the likely enthusiasts start hitting 80 and 90 years old, methinks?

Also, given the depressed values, pre-WW2 is a darned good place for a young, proper, enthusiast to start?

Or, do 'impressions' and 'street cred'' matter more to folk these days?

 

Usability is the key IMHO, and smaller (under 14hp) pre-war British cars don’t have it. They were (due to the taxation regime of the day) almost universally gutless even by contemporary standards, with most also lacking heaters and effective brakes.

 

 Younger enthusiasts are more likely to be drawn to a fifties or sixties car that dad had rather than a thirties model that grandad (or great-grandad) might have wanted but probably couldn't afford so at best ran a bike and sidecar....

 

Memories are made from what you experience, and the only people with those where '20s and '30s cars are concerned are now sellers, not buyers.

 

I'm 71, and the oldest car of which I have any personal memory is the 1937 Morris 8 Series 2 that dad had for a couple of years between his BSA combination and his first 100E Ford....

 

If I was to go after any of those, it'd be the Beezer! No contest.

 

John

Edited September 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

On 28/09/2023 at 15:41, alastairq said:

Trouble is, when they were 'new', although they were cheap [competition from others?] they were also darned good [for their day!]

Similarly placed [marketwise] cars of the 50s and 60s , of similar good condition, seem to fetch better prices.

The price and market when new bears little relationship to values on the old car market today.

[A reminder, one can get a megabux Bentley today, for less than the price of a second hand Focus]..

 

The pre-WW2 market seems to have deteriorated as the likely enthusiasts start hitting 80 and 90 years old, methinks?

Also, given the depressed values, pre-WW2 is a darned good place for a young, proper, enthusiast to start?

Or, do 'impressions' and 'street cred'' matter more to folk these days?

 

Big cars, even beauties like Bentleys, have always been dirt cheap in middle-age, when they are merely "old" but not yet "classic". I can remember being offered a 1950s Jag for fifty quid!

 

However, in the past, while many could afford to buy one, few could afford the running costs, and even fewer had the resources to keep a second car just for high days and holidays.

 

This is the stage at which those who did could, built collections that, a decade or two on, would be worth ten times what they paid.

 

John

Edited September 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 Younger enthusiasts are more likely to be drawn to a fifties or sixties car that dad had rather than a thirties model that grandad (or great-grandad) might have wanted but probably couldn't afford so at best ran a bike and sidecar....

 

*cough* You spelled eighties wrong.

[alastairq]

On a matter of personal observation, I don't find general traffic speeds, even on ''wide open roads' to be very much different to those of 50 years ago or more.

 

The advantage of those pre-wawer [often sidevalve, but not always] engines, in the more cost-saving categories,was that they had an abundance of torque, despite lacking bhpeees.

 Something folk fail to grasp is that , in order to get reasonable road performance out of, say, an Austin 8 or 10, one doesn't try to scream the nuts off it.

A style totally alien to modern day drivers...

 

Brakes were fine....they only disappoint when owners try to fit modern day lining materials  for which the brakes were never designed. 

[craneman]

2 hours ago, alastairq said:

Trouble is, when they were 'new', although they were cheap [competition from others?] they were also darned good [for their day!]

 

No, really they were not. They were primitive, unreliable, uncomfortable, usually poorly engineered and built, and generally both unpleasant and hard to drive and their only merit was that they revolutionised personal mobility at a time when a bicycle was the only alternative.

 

Their attraction was what they did, not what they were.

Edited September 28, 2023 by craneman

[alastairq]

36 minutes ago, craneman said:

Their attraction was what they did, not what they were.

Indeed, and exactly the same can be said of today's new offerings.

But we should not compare apples with oranges.

We seem to view those old cars from the vantage point of having experienced modern  technologies [or, 80 years of automotive advances?] 

 

Instead of viewing them from the viewpoint of knowing little, if anything, better?

 

Personally I try to view old cars for what they are, and what they do, too 

Which is why I thoroughly enjoy the using of my Dellow...despite it having a Ford sidevalve engine, and 3 speed gearbox......and wouldn't thank anyone for an

E-type Jaguar, or even the offer of driving one. [I consider them to be no more than gucci handbags..like modern Morgans.]

 

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, alastairq said:

On a matter of personal observation, I don't find general traffic speeds, even on ''wide open roads' to be very much different to those of 50 years ago or more.

 

The advantage of those pre-wawer [often sidevalve, but not always] engines, in the more cost-saving categories,was that they had an abundance of torque, despite lacking bhpeees.

 Something folk fail to grasp is that , in order to get reasonable road performance out of, say, an Austin 8 or 10, one doesn't try to scream the nuts off it.

A style totally alien to modern day drivers...

 

Brakes were fine....they only disappoint when owners try to fit modern day lining materials  for which the brakes were never designed. 

It's worth bearing in mind that the only reason any 7/8/10 hp cars were sold in the first place was that their purchasers couldn't afford to buy/run anything better! All were slower than Model T Fords from twenty years earlier.

 

Fifty years ago was the era of the Escort Mexico and RS2000, and small pre-war stuff wouldn't even keep up with the A35 van my brother was still hanging on to back then.

 

Depends where you are and what you call reasonable, I'd guess. They struggle to hit 40mph other than downhill. OK for city driving or a 2-mile trip to the supermarket maybe, but not much use on most single carriageway A-roads around here, where even 44-ton trucks effortlessly maintain 50mph cruising, irrespective of gradients, and places where you can overtake are few and far between.

 

Out of time, out of place, a bloody nuisance to those who need to get somewhere rather than just potter about in a fog of nostalgia, and a source of increased pollution because everybody in the queue behind them is forced to drive in third gear.....

 

We are fast approaching a point where supply will exceed demand and such things will become cheap enough to attract the attention of the hot rodding community. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

49 minutes ago, alastairq said:

Indeed, and exactly the same can be said of today's new offerings.

But we should not compare apples with oranges.

We seem to view those old cars from the vantage point of having experienced modern  technologies [or, 80 years of automotive advances?] 

 

Instead of viewing them from the viewpoint of knowing little, if anything, better?

 

Personally I try to view old cars for what they are, and what they do, too 

Which is why I thoroughly enjoy the using of my Dellow...despite it having a Ford sidevalve engine, and 3 speed gearbox......and wouldn't thank anyone for an

E-type Jaguar, or even the offer of driving one. [I consider them to be no more than gucci handbags..like modern Morgans.]

 

But your Dellow is effectively a 1950s hot-rod. It will offer performance far in excess of what you can screw out of any 7/8/10hp saloon car, 'cos its "10hp" Ford motor is probably kicking out 25% more power than it started off with, and the car weighs half what the standard engine was designed to drag around. 

 

I am fully aware how slow the standard item is, because I used to have one....

 

Wasting another half-hour going ten miles in second and third gear behind another bloody Austin 7 is something I can really do without!

 

The place for history is in museums.

 

John

Edited September 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Rugd1022]

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The owner is 70+, I think. He mentioned that it is manual, one of only about 17k, the vast majority being automatic. 

 

With just over 327k P6s made in total you're right Ian, although the survival rate for the V8s (autos and manuals) is quite high, compared to the 2000s and 2200s. The 2200s were only made for just over three years and good ones are scarce now.

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, alastairq said:

Trouble is, when they were 'new', although they were cheap [competition from others?] they were also darned good [for their day!]

Similarly placed [marketwise] cars of the 50s and 60s , of similar good condition, seem to fetch better prices.

The price and market when new bears little relationship to values on the old car market today.

[A reminder, one can get a megabux Bentley today, for less than the price of a second hand Focus]..

 

The pre-WW2 market seems to have deteriorated as the likely enthusiasts start hitting 80 and 90 years old, methinks?

Also, given the depressed values, pre-WW2 is a darned good place for a young, proper, enthusiast to start?

Or, do 'impressions' and 'street cred'' matter more to folk these days?

 

Dad tried to sell his side-vale Minor some years ago without success and for the reasons you've outlined, I suspect it's only got harder since.  People generally aspire to cars of their youth and the people who remember 1949 cars as new are very likely to be giving up driving altogether.

[PhilJ W]

The reason for pre-war cars not being popular is probably few drivers know how to use a crash gearbox or to double declutch. Also the population is getting bigger (hence modern cars doing the same) and many of us would find it difficult to get into some 70's models let alone a pre-war car.

[alastairq]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

They struggle to hit 40mph other than downhill

 Oddly, that's more than adequate a speed for many of the major roads round here...given that the NSL has effectively been lowered by the 50 mph speed limits on all goods vehicles with a loaded weight above 2 tonnes! {If they persist in ignoring the Law, they deserve to visit the nearest ditch]..

I have ''experimented'' on a new [for me] dads taxi run by not exceeding an indicated 50 mph in my 'daily'...[2000 rpm]...Finding that, whilst I do attract a small convoy behind me [IE those who choose not to take advantage of long clear straights to overtake..surprisingly, few bother]...I do in fact, find myself tacking onto the rear of more convoys...and arriving at the destination slightly ahead of most who venture to overtake [in a fit of impatience, usually]..

 

The issue is, most look at the speed that can be attained...rather than looking at the more valid, average speed, on a particular journey.

 

If a thoughtful driver can manage to keep the overall speed of their ''slow'' vehicle up, during a journey, then their average speed will be not be far adrift from that of the Mustgetons..

 

A case of demonstrating ''more haste, less speed?''

 

There are far too many physical obstructions to progress on a given journey, these days....that bring us all down to the same level.

 

It only takes a tractor and implement, or two....Or a road works, or a slower LGV... to make high  speed capability and massive horsepower a total nonsense.

[alastairq]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

It's worth bearing in mind that the only reason any 7/8/10 hp cars were sold in the first place was that their purchasers couldn't afford to buy/run anything better

 Surely the biggest issue when trying to put folks into motorcars?

 

All down to the UKs [and other countries] method of exacting taxation.

Having a  bigger, or more modern design of engine didn't necessarily make the car a 'better' one.

 

Running costs always would be an important selling point.

 

In just the same way that, today, Dacia's products are more highly favoured than, for example, Vauxhalls? [Or, indeed, other so-called 'major' manufacturers..especially across Europe]

 

Model T Fords were a lot slower, in terms of overall speed [because they were heavier?] than most of Austin's products of the 20's and 30's. Or Wolseleys? Or Singers?

 

The disadvantage of the long stroke [sidevalve] engine that UK makers found themselves encouraged to produce was, in certain foreign markets, one of longevity.

[Hobby]

Nice try, John, but you're never going to persuade Alastair and he'll come up with more and more strange reasons why everyone should be buying/using pre war cars the more we say! I love his quote about 40 being a "suitable" speed for todays roads, it's not only the top speed but how it gets there and what happens when it reaches a hill or has to slow and then speed up again after a bend or 20/30 limit, the goods vehicles have no problem doing that nearly as fast as a car, but a 1920 8/10hp simply can't.

 

Here's another reason people don't want them, most people aren't interested in doing the upkeep and maintenance. People like Alastair are quite happy tinkering away, as he keep reminding us, but it's less and less popular amongst the rest of us. we want something that we can use from time to time but not have to check over every time we go out and come back from a drive!

 

If Alastair and his cronies wish to go out in underpowered cars for a drive I don't have any objection to that, I'd rather see them used rather than stuck in a museum, but please keep your eyes on the rear view mirror and pull over if you've gathered a long tail behind you!

Edited September 29, 2023 by Hobby

[Dunsignalling]

25 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Nice try, John, but you're never going to persuade Alastair and he'll come up with more and more strange reasons why everyone should be buying/using pre war cars the more we say! I love his quote about 40 being a "suitable" speed for todays roads, it's not only the top speed but how it gets there and what happens when it reaches a hill or has to slow and then speed up again after a bend or 20/30 limit, the goods vehicles have no problem doing that nearly as fast as a car, but a 1920 8/10hp simply can't.

 

Here's another reason people don't want them, most people aren't interested in doing the upkeep and maintenance. People like Alastair are quite happy tinkering away, as he keep reminding us, but it's less and less popular amongst the rest of us. we want something that we can use from time to time but not have to check over every time we go out and come back from a drive!

 

If Alastair and his cronies wish to go out in underpowered cars for a drive I don't have any objection to that, I'd rather see them used rather than stuck in a museum, but please keep your eyes on the rear view mirror and pull over if you've gathered a long tail behind you!

I lost all enthusiasm for home maintenance as soon as I started having "fun" getting vertical again after being under my '91 Pug 205 (sold in 2004). Barring punctures etc., everything since has gone into the garage twice a year. Once for inspection/service and once for the MoT test. 

 

Opening the bonnet nowadays is for filling the washer tank and clearing out dead leaves, though I generally verify that the oil and coolant levels tally with the dashboard read-out while I'm at it. They always have so far! Nothing else apart from a weekly tyre-pressure/tread check.... 

 

Suits me, as does 40 mph being the change-up point from second to third gear once out of town....

 

John

[alastairq]

39 minutes ago, Hobby said:

If Alastair and his cronies wish to go out in underpowered cars for a drive I don't have any objection to that, I'd rather see them used rather than stuck in a museum, but please keep your eyes on the rear view mirror and pull over if you've gathered a long tail behind you

 Whilst I have had a pre-wawer car [Morgan 4/4, 1939]....and I have had cars that were, by dint soley of gearing, limited to relatively 'low' speeds when compared to today's Tesla-owning Mustgetons [various trials cars]...I cannot be described as an 'enthusiastic user' of pre-Wawer motors.

I have no real 'love' for commonplace 50's cars either.....although I do see the attractions.

 

But I do see the difficulties that face owners of pre-wawer, run of the mill motors.

Especially when one compares the amount of time, effort & money they expend just to get their cars 'right?'

 

I also think [not as an old car enthusiast, but as an old-style driver who ventured into the world of driver education]...that much of the impression the driving world has , of old cars out on the roads, stems from the way they are often driven, in this day & age? The manner in which they are driven.

Certainly not the manner in which many were driven, back in their day.

 

I know Blair is a Rover enthusiast...and would like to remind folks that pre war cars aren't just Austin 8s or 10's.....or Ford Ys or CXs [My favorites, from a cost viewpoint]...but also Rovers like the P2...

These too, like Armstrong Siddeleys, or the smaller Alvises, have struggled to realise 'values' of significance at auction.

Not all pre war  cars are from the 1920's either.....far more come from t h e late 30's and early /late 40's....and these too, struggle to appeal as they once did.

 

Another struggling example [which once didn't struggle, value-wise] is the Sunbeam Talbot/90 of the middle 1950's. Albeit all carpets and arm rests...not so much appeal for me..

 

Is it the cross ply tyres that put folk off?

[Or, the sheer prices of cross ply tyres?]

 

My  Dellow 'passion' isn't quite 'living in the past' either, as Dellows are still very valid [and championship winning] cars even up to today....so perhaps are not quite as valid an example of the 40's and 50's era..despite originally using components and metalwork from pre war vehicles...

Bucklers are another timeless icon, very underrated as sports cars [folk prefer gucci handbags like Sunbeams and MGs]..

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 Whilst I have had a pre-wawer car [Morgan 4/4, 1939]....and I have had cars that were, by dint soley of gearing, limited to relatively 'low' speeds when compared to today's Tesla-owning Mustgetons [various trials cars]...I cannot be described as an 'enthusiastic user' of pre-Wawer motors.

I have no real 'love' for commonplace 50's cars either.....although I do see the attractions.

 

But I do see the difficulties that face owners of pre-wawer, run of the mill motors.

Especially when one compares the amount of time, effort & money they expend just to get their cars 'right?'

 

I also think [not as an old car enthusiast, but as an old-style driver who ventured into the world of driver education]...that much of the impression the driving world has , of old cars out on the roads, stems from the way they are often driven, in this day & age? The manner in which they are driven.

Certainly not the manner in which many were driven, back in their day.

 

I know Blair is a Rover enthusiast...and would like to remind folks that pre war cars aren't just Austin 8s or 10's.....or Ford Ys or CXs [My favorites, from a cost viewpoint]...but also Rovers like the P2...

These too, like Armstrong Siddeleys, or the smaller Alvises, have struggled to realise 'values' of significance at auction.

Not all pre war  cars are from the 1920's either.....far more come from t h e late 30's and early /late 40's....and these too, struggle to appeal as they once did.

 

Another struggling example [which once didn't struggle, value-wise] is the Sunbeam Talbot/90 of the middle 1950's. Albeit all carpets and arm rests...not so much appeal for me..

 

Is it the cross ply tyres that put folk off?

[Or, the sheer prices of cross ply tyres?]

 

My  Dellow 'passion' isn't quite 'living in the past' either, as Dellows are still very valid [and championship winning] cars even up to today....so perhaps are not quite as valid an example of the 40's and 50's era..despite originally using components and metalwork from pre war vehicles...

Bucklers are another timeless icon, very underrated as sports cars [folk prefer gucci handbags like Sunbeams and MGs]..

I think it's probably just an inevitable result of pre-war cars falling out of the consciousness of most people.

 

They no longer commonly figure in youthful memories of anyone whose own father (or even grandfather) wasn't an enthusiast for them.

 

So many met their fate with the advent of the MoT Test in the early sixties, and they were already disappearing fast when anybody under my age (71) began taking notice of cars. By then, the small ones most aspired to generally had Mini Cooper (preferably with an added 'S') badges on the boot-lid.

 

The 50-70 demographic traditionally forms the backbone of classic car buyers, and the current occupants of that age group mainly favour 1960s/70s products. That's why prices for them are going through the roof while those for older little cars head south. Even demand for early-1950s models seems to be declining.

 

Another proof of the adage that even nostalgia "ain't what it used to be", perhaps?

 

John

 

 

 

 

[russ p]

Things have definitely changed in the world of classic car shows too

About 2010 some arse#ole with a Morris Oxford coupe more commonly known as MGBGT had a right go at me saying my Maestro EFi had no place to be at a car show. Yet to my utter amazement it won best in show at a fairly big local generic classic car show where there was a vast array of classics including beautifully presented pre war cars and even E types and big Healeys 

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, russ p said:

Things have definitely changed in the world of classic car shows too

About 2010 some arse#ole with a Morris Oxford coupe more commonly known as MGBGT had a right go at me saying my Maestro EFi had no place to be at a car show. Yet to my utter amazement it won best in show at a fairly big local generic classic car show where there was a vast array of classics including beautifully presented pre war cars and even E types and big Healeys 

 

Thing is, E-Types and Healeys are relatively commonplace compared to a Maestro EFi. 🙂

[Kickstart]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

Here's another reason people don't want them, most people aren't interested in doing the upkeep and maintenance. People like Alastair are quite happy tinkering away, as he keep reminding us, but it's less and less popular amongst the rest of us. we want something that we can use from time to time but not have to check over every time we go out and come back from a drive!

 

Suspect for many younger people they don't have a clue where to start with mechanical tinkering, and likely have parents who have little idea either (so getting started is a major problem). We are several generations into the kind of cars that need little regular maintenance from the driver beyond topping a few fluid up. Add to which any pre war car is getting into requiring tools that are no longer readily available (Whitworth spanners, etc).

 

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The 50-70 demographic traditionally forms the backbone of classic car buyers, and the current occupants of that age group mainly favour 1960s/70s products. That's why prices for them are going through the roof while those for older little cars head south. Even demand for early-1950s models seems to be declining.

 

Not even certain it is as long ago as 70s, let alone 60s. 1980s and even 1990s cars seem to be the ones in favour. Your age range starting at 50 includes people born in 1973, who would have started to drive in 1990 - when the Sierra Cosworth was the common dream car and only a couple of years before the Ford Mondeo was launched (I am suddenly feeling old......)

 

All the best

 

Katy

[russ p]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Thing is, E-Types and Healeys are relatively commonplace compared to a Maestro EFi. 🙂

 

Very true but until recently these types of show tended to by things that looked like a mobile Westminster Abbey and almost as old with headlamps the size of a small planet 

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

Suspect for many younger people they don't have a clue where to start with mechanical tinkering, and likely have parents who have little idea either (so getting started is a major problem). We are several generations into the kind of cars that need little regular maintenance from the driver beyond topping a few fluid up. Add to which any pre war car is getting into requiring tools that are no longer readily available (Whitworth spanners, etc).

 

 

Not even certain it is as long ago as 70s, let alone 60s. 1980s and even 1990s cars seem to be the ones in favour. Your age range starting at 50 includes people born in 1973, who would have started to drive in 1990 - when the Sierra Cosworth was the common dream car and only a couple of years before the Ford Mondeo was launched (I am suddenly feeling old......)

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

 

Cossies and the like are definitely appreciating fast, but there's also the "car your dad had" factor in play. Memories of childhood holidays etc. "Are we there yet?"

 

The really silly money still seems to head for things like the Cooper S and the hotter versions of Mk1 and Mk2 Ford Escorts if Bangers and Cash is anything to go by! 

 

The fact that almost all those Dads probably had a Morris Traveller/Austin Countryman or Escort 1300L, rather than an 'S' or Mexico, is neither here nor there! 😀

 

John

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[PhilJ W]

The problem with older cars, not just pre-war cars is the high maintenance requirements. In the mid 50's my dad had a 1932 Morris Minor. A weekly chore was to grease various points on the steering, brakes and suspension, anything between a dozen and twenty in all, mostly from beneath the car. Inevitably as a car got older such maintenance tended to be neglected and that led to many accidents which led to the introduction of the MoT test. Perhaps a lot of people are not prepared to put the time and effort into keeping an old car on the road.

[alastairq]

24 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Perhaps a lot of people are not prepared to put the time and effort into keeping an old car on the road.

Not just old cars, either.

 

Modern cars have become white goods.

They are treated in the same vein as one would one's fridge.

Or washing machine.