HAB Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 The moulded-on ones just don't look right from any angle to me, (excepting looking straight down on the roof perhaps). I definitely agree Colin - the ones on the Hornby LH coaches are much better, but looking a bit more closely, I see that they too are circular in a side on view. Just doing a look round the "usual suppliers" of these things, not many of them provide a decent photo and those that do either do not show enough detail or they show the wrong kind of vent! I wonder if anyone has tried the 247 Developments castings - at least the sell three different types of vent and although there is not one specifically described as "Southern" it has been suggested to me that the LNER ones might fit the bill. But has anyone actually seen / used any of these or any other make? I had a look at the Roxey ones I have upstairs but these are for a 2 NOL and are the LSWR pattern. Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) As always, a great set of prints Dave. Many thanks.... I'm guessing here, but do these, show 2090 just after retirement from active service ?. After looking through Dave's, and other 2-BIL roof-top photos, it appears that the spacing of the vents (longitudinally) is more regular on the prototype, than on Hornby's model...... .....I could be wrong tho'. Cheers. Hi Dave, I have the MRC drawings thanks to Clive Mortimore and Ceptic. Yes, the vents are more regular on the drawing and so are the prototypes' ones - all batches. The drawing is not that of the last batch for the Reading line electrification scheme, as the vents were moved over towards the centre-line of the roof on those units. Even more interesting, and mentioned by bassettloko in post #69 of this topic, is the angle of the cab front: The official drawing you have posted, Nick Campling's in the MRC, Andy Mullins' drawing supplied by Branchlines, and the Ian Kirk kit itself (albeit with its over-width centre panel) all have a (much) sharper angle on the cab front than the Hornby Model. Now angles remain constant, so there can be little doubt about this discrepancy. No, I am not going to re-build the cab! I see you are tempting me there with that second plan! I have seen a very fine part-built model here http://scalerail.phpbbhosts.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=442&start=50 One page one is a very, very good Kirk 2 BIL exuding character in bucketloads. It will make your eyes pop out! All the best, Colin Edited July 14, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) I definitely agree Colin - the ones on the Hornby LH coaches are much better, but looking a bit more closely, I see that they too are circular in a side on view. Just doing a look round the "usual suppliers" of these things, not many of them provide a decent photo and those that do either do not show enough detail or they show the wrong kind of vent! I wonder if anyone has tried the 247 Developments castings - at least the sell three different types of vent and although there is not one specifically described as "Southern" it has been suggested to me that the LNER ones might fit the bill. But has anyone actually seen / used any of these or any other make? I had a look at the Roxey ones I have upstairs but these are for a 2 NOL and are the LSWR pattern. Best wishes, Hi Howard, Thanks for your advice re. vents. I am now 'concerned' about the cab fronts too, but that is a job too far for me. I will have scout about the web for vents later. Now it's back to the 'wall' for me! All the best, Colin Edited July 14, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) As always, a great set of prints Dave. Many thanks.... I'm guessing here, but do these, show 2090 just after retirement from active service ?. After looking through Dave's, and other 2-BIL roof-top photos, it appears that the spacing of the vents (longitudinally) is more regular on the prototype, than on Hornby's model...... .....I could be wrong tho'. Cheers. Hi Ceptic, Re. the vents, you are right! The spacing of the vents stayed the same throughout the whole 2 BIL series, but the last 36 were moved. I can only think that some internal longitudinal roof framing prevented them from being installed at exactly dead-centre. All the best. Colin Edited July 14, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin, Your upgrade is looking good so far. The roof vents are a tricky subject, I use Comet torpedo vents on my Southern units as they are flatter than other suppliers. The ref number for these is RC1. I think they capture the look of Southern vents really well and have used them on all sorts of Southern coaches and vans. Hope this is of use. Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin, Your upgrade is looking good so far. The roof vents are a tricky subject, I use Comet torpedo vents on my Southern units as they are flatter than other suppliers. DSCF1873.JPG DSCF1872.JPG The ref number for these is RC1. I think they capture the look of Southern vents really well and have used them on all sorts of Southern coaches and vans. Hope this is of use. Cheers for now, Ian Hi Ian, Thanks for the pictures of the vents. If you have the time, it would be interesting to see photo of them viewed from the top as the width of the cowl is the crucial point. They are about the same in profile as the Branchlines ones which I have used on all my scratch-built EMUs. Meanwhile, I have solved the lamp conduit puzzle as to how the conduits miss the water tank filler caps. I shall be drawing out the true course of these pesky things and posting the sketch-plans here later on. All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin, Here are a couple of pics from on top; The cowl measures on average about 1.05mm across the sprue of six. Total width is about 3.00mm. The painted example is on the roof of a BY van Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hmm, "Its good, but its not right..." The search must continue methinks... Cheers, Howard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 There is quite an interesting picture of Bil roofs in the Mitchell and Smith album "Worthing to Chichester" (Middleton Press) - Photo 71 is an aerial view of the aftermath of the Ford accident in 1951. I have a list of the unit numbers somewhere. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I see you are tempting me there with that second plan! I have seen a very fine part-built model here http://scalerail.phpbbhosts.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=442&start=50 On page one is a very, very good Kirk 2 BIL exuding character in bucketloads. It will make your eyes pop out! Part built indeed! Are these things ever finished? Now I know - from David's amazing versions - that the stripe on the black livery was silver not white, so I can get on and paint them. I think you'd do an amazing job of them Colin. Plasticard definitely being the best route to an accurate version rather than the ex-MTK brass 'wrappers'. Kind words on the 2BIL - which when I compare to my Hornby ones I think I still prefer. Perhaps it is all the effort that goes into a kit or scratch built model that makes it more attractive despite the new alternative - I can't be the only one out there with much loved kit builds now threatened by RTR versions. I was wondering about the slightly flat face of the 2BIL myself. Looks a little pushed in perhaps... but as a fully paid up member of the broad brush modelling club I just think how lucky we are to have it despite this. I have collected up a box of Hornby spare parts for the BIL [and BEL] to see if I can't use them to replace some of my past cruder attempts using various bogies or detail parts on my other units. A Laser Glaze pack for the BIL would, I think, make a huge improvement. Watching with interest to see what else you do to it. Best wishes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 DTC roof sketch roughed out using Dave's and Frank's photos as references. Also used was the Nick Campling drawing. The vents are shown as being where I have already put them. Below is the DMBS sketch - work in progress. The lighting conduit over the compartments has been drawn as per the model's tooling. It looks right. Things to note re. the DTC roof: course of water filler pipes; mushroom vent and lamp top over toilet; 'centre' lighting conduit takes a big turn to avoid the water tank filler cap; compartment side lighting conduit goes across and joins the 'centre' over the leading compartment; train control conduit terminates on roof next to cab vent; power line conduit is as Hornby tooling and the train control conduit goes into centre junction box at inner end. Lighting conduits never ran into centre junction boxes. But then again, I could be wrong! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 There is quite an interesting picture of Bil roofs in the Mitchell and Smith album "Worthing to Chichester" (Middleton Press) - Photo 71 is an aerial view of the aftermath of the Ford accident in 1951. I have a list of the unit numbers somewhere. Cheers, Hi Howard Re. the Ford accident: the 2 BILs involved were 2069 and 2100. I had also been studying photos of the later Barnham derailment involving unit 2088, but they of little use as the unit had a 2 HAL trailer at the time. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Part built indeed! Are these things ever finished? Now I know - from David's amazing versions - that the stripe on the black livery was silver not white, so I can get on and paint them. I think you'd do an amazing job of them Colin. Plasticard definitely being the best route to an accurate version rather than the ex-MTK brass 'wrappers'. Kind words on the 2BIL - which when I compare to my Hornby ones I think I still prefer. Perhaps it is all the effort that goes into a kit or scratch built model that makes it more attractive despite the new alternative - I can't be the only one out there with much loved kit builds now threatened by RTR versions. I was wondering about the slightly flat face of the 2BIL myself. Looks a little pushed in perhaps... but as a fully paid up member of the broad brush modelling club I just think how lucky we are to have it despite this. I have collected up a box of Hornby spare parts for the BIL [and BEL] to see if I can't use them to replace some of my past cruder attempts using various bogies or detail parts on my other units. A Laser Glaze pack for the BIL would, I think, make a huge improvement. Watching with interest to see what else you do to it. Best wishes. Sorry number6! What about "very fine, unpainted model" then?! (I read somewhere that the chassis of this loco was silver too.) Re. Lazerglaze, how does it stay in place? I have had enough trouble with some of my scratch-built EMUs losing the odd quarter light to be circumspect about the merits of replacing the Hornby glazing. Edited July 15, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2013 How about making a master torpedo and then casting them in resin? You could get them spot on then. Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin, Lazerglaze is a VERY accurate fit in the RTR body side opening - so good a fit that you can only put it in the "right way round" - ie the taper on the kerf left by the lazer matching the tapered draw on the plastic moulding. Thus you can push it into place and it will stay put. Once all the glazing is in place, a run of gloss varnish round the inside of each will hold things in place permanently. Because the lights go in individually, it avoids that "one continuous strip" effect that is sometimes seen with etched kit-built vehicles (not in your models!!) which can mar the overall effect. Another big advantage is that - with care, you can set the door droplights a thou or ten deeper into the moulding than the quarter lights - this produces a very realistic finish to the body side. I have to say I too was pretty sceptical about the idea, but it really is one of those things that is as least as good as it promises! Two caveats - 1. I have only done the EPB - can't speak for anything else! 2. it only works with the RTR vehicle for which it is designed - for example, the glazing intended for the Replica suburban coaches will not fit the EPB - even though the prototype dimensions are the same Of course all of this is academic until the heavy boys persuade Brian to do something about the 2 Bil! Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 How about making a master torpedo and then casting them in resin? You could get them spot on then. Andy G Hi Andy, That could well be an option. For now, the vents will be left as a push-fit and replaced at a later stage. I do like the idea of see-through ones in brass, but that would cost a fortune to tool up for. I suppose resin casting could be done with a brass master. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin, Lazerglaze is a VERY accurate fit in the RTR body side opening - so good a fit that you can only put it in the "right way round" - ie the taper on the kerf left by the lazer matching the tapered draw on the plastic moulding. Thus you can push it into place and it will stay put. Once all the glazing is in place, a run of gloss varnish round the inside of each will hold things in place permanently. Because the lights go in individually, it avoids that "one continuous strip" effect that is sometimes seen with etched kit-built vehicles (not in your models!!) which can mar the overall effect. Another big advantage is that - with care, you can set the door droplights a thou or ten deeper into the moulding than the quarter lights - this produces a very realistic finish to the body side. I have to say I too was pretty sceptical about the idea, but it really is one of those things that is as least as good as it promises! Two caveats - 1. I have only done the EPB - can't speak for anything else! 2. it only works with the RTR vehicle for which it is designed - for example, the glazing intended for the Replica suburban coaches will not fit the EPB - even though the prototype dimensions are the same Of course all of this is academic until the heavy boys persuade Brian to do something about the 2 Bil! Best wishes, Hi Howard, If you say the Lazerglaze is good, that's good enough for me! The door glazing should set at an angle really more flush at the top and set in quite deeply at the bottom. I've never managed to achieve flush glazing that I am truly happy with in terms of fit, but that shouldn't be a problem with a product designed specifically for an RTR model. One slight improvement to the Lazerglaze would be to run a fine-tipped black marker pen around the edges before fitting. It gets rid of that white-edge effect. All the best, Colin Put me down for a set of 2 BIL Lazerglaze if you see the chap who makes it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15, 2013 Put me down for a set of 2 BIL Lazerglaze if you see the chap who makes it. Another one for the pile! Mike. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Now, can anyone spot the obvious mistake? I was just checking measurements from the Nick Campling drawing against the model. Having drawn in the periscopes on my sketch, something didn't add up. Well the periscopes will have to come off too, as the front one is 3mm too far back from the cab/luggage compartment partition and the rear one is wrong side of the partition,over the leading passenger compartment seats. Ironically, the two vents over the luggage compartment are in the right place. Ho hum. ('Killer BIL'? - it's going to kill me!) Colin Edited July 15, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin I haven't read the 2 Bil thread as I do not intend to buy one, but are you the first to notice that the guard had to sit on the passenger's lap to use his periscope? Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi Colin I haven't read the 2 Bil thread as I do not intend to buy one, but are you the first to notice that the guard had to sit on the passenger's lap to use his periscope? Clive Hi Clive, Perhaps those seats were a bit cheaper! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Re the scalpel blade discussion. After having too many close calls and accidents with blades generally, when removing detail, I now use well honed, (quality, ie Stanley) wood chisels and various sizes of these http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Parting_Systems__Indexable_.html and these http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Square-Tool-Steel-Pieces--hss-.html. Far safer. Mike. Sorry for not replying to your post earlier Mike. I somehow missed it! Thanks for the links. I have been using the Swann-Morton knife as it is about the only way of getting in close to remove the parts required without messing up the water strips and other fine details. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 16, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hah! Found the vents in Larry's many posts, there are on this page near the middle to bottom: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67015-midland-carriage-evolution-1916-23/ Not sure where you get them from mind, and they don't appear to be flat enough! A couple of posts down he states he uses MJT #2940 LMS/LNER ones, now these appear to be flat so might be worth a PM to him to see if he can give us some photos... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hah! Found the vents in Larry's many posts, there are on this page near the middle to bottom: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67015-midland-carriage-evolution-1916-23/ Not sure where you get them from mind, and they don't appear to be flat enough! A couple of posts down he states he uses MJT #2940 LMS/LNER ones, now these appear to be flat so might be worth a PM to him to see if he can give us some photos... Andy G Amazing - but: oh dear - it is one of those "given to me by a mate" jobs - and Larry says he is now using MJT - and they are very nice but - judging only by the picture on the website - are also lacking in the width department. http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2940.php But Larry's pic does prove that these things can be done: the issue being these days that no one seems to be developing new components - only selling "old" ranges. Perhaps Bill Bedford could be persuaded to do some using his rapid prototyping approach? Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hah! Found the vents in Larry's many posts, there are on this page near the middle to bottom: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67015-midland-carriage-evolution-1916-23/ Not sure where you get them from mind, and they don't appear to be flat enough! A couple of posts down he states he uses MJT #2940 LMS/LNER ones, now these appear to be flat so might be worth a PM to him to see if he can give us some photos... Andy G Thanks for the link Andy, but the see-through vents are too large. I might jus have a go at making a trial vent having seen how they are done, so it wasn't all in vain. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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