Perchpole Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Hello, All -I recently had a rather interesting experience with a well known retailer which has left me a baffled by the manner in which they handled things. Let me say first of all that I am not here to grind an axe. The company concerned did try to resolve the issue - after a fashion. I am just a little perplexed as to their methods. Please tell me what you think...Last week I ordered Dapol's N-Gauge Class 22 online. I also paid for next day delivery. The loco was a birthday gift for my nephew. Sure enough, the next day the postman duly appeared. However, I was a little concerned by the size of the box he was carrying. When I opened it I discovered that I had indeed received a Dapol class 22. Unfortunately it was the OO version!I immediately contacted the retailer. They apologised and asked me to return the item. However, when I mentioned that I still needed the N-gauge loco for my nephew they said the only thing they could do was charge my credit card a second time and send it on to me. I was baffled by this - pointing out that they had thus far failed to complete the first transaction and were now effectively forcing me to pay for the OO loco into the bargain!They refused to move and so ultimately I was forced to comply. To be fair the N-gauge loco did arrive next day. However, I still have the OO loco which I will have to return to get my refund. I live in the sticks so I'll have to drive to the nearest post office and pay for the postage. (The company said they do not have any "return bags")As I said at the start, I'm not here to grind any axe. The manager who dealt with my issue was very courteous and helpful. However, I still can't quite accept why I had to pay twice in order to acquire the item I had originally ordered. It doesn't seem right and I would be very interested to learn how this procedure fits in with current sale of goods laws. It wasn't my fault they sent me the wong item - so why was I required to pay again to put it right? :0/ Perchpole Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted July 8, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 8, 2013 You have actually purchased, and received, two different items, both of which need to be paid for. A computerised accounting system is unlikely to provide the facility to swop the payment from one to the other. The one I'm used to certainly wouldn't allow funds to be moved between transactions; you raised a credit note on the wrong one. I assume they will be refunding the price of the 00 loco, and you'll be all square apart from the unfortunate expense of returning it. Some things were easier before computers! Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Sounds reasonable to me - they made a mistake, sorted it out, but yes, still want paying for the other item - understandable as they will only credit you for the wrong one once they get it back. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I see your point - had you sent the first one back before receiving the second one, I would have agreed fully as it was apparently their mistake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted July 8, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 8, 2013 I don't see why you should have to pay for the return postage when it's their fault. Investigate the Distance Selling Regulations http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf Here it says You can never require consumers to pay the cost of returning substitute goods. If the goods are faulty or do not comply with the contract, you will have to pay for their return whatever the circumstances. Mike Edit for spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 They could have got around the postage issue by emailing a pre-paid return address via UPS (or whomever). That's how these things tend to get covered over here... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Send them an invoice for the return postage .Their computer can then pay you .If it doesnt take them to a small claims court .They will soon cough up .Also check with your credit card company about all this . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 8, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 8, 2013 Mike's absolutely right - the situation is covered in the Distance Selling Regulations. As it was the retailer who made the mistake, the retailer must compensate you to the extent that you are not out of pocket. In this case, that means that he must pay your return postage. If he doesn't, Trading Standards are the designated enforcement authority for Distance selling Regulations. As a matter of interest, did the retailer not provide details of the regulations prior to your concluding the sale? Chaeck his website for them - if he didn't, he's breaking the law. If he did, what does it say about returning faulty or wrongly supplied goods? DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Just out of interest was it 100% the n gauge one you ordered as the product codes are pretty much the same with either a 2D for N or 4D for 00. I had the same issue but realised after I paid and had to phone up and try to sort it out. If you ordered the 00 one then it is not their responsibility to pay for postage. Alistair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 When ever have returned an item to a well known retailer, geographically quite close to me but far cheaper to mail order ie just over the Wirral!! They have alsways been most helpful and always refunded my return postage costs I think it is very reasonable that they charged for a second item sent, as that safeguards their business and no doubt they would quickly process a refund when they receive the incorrect item back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 return it with a polite note asking for a credit note for the return P&P. Mention distance selling regs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 If they gave an immediate refund in that situation then some low-life could order the 00 version, claim they got the wrong one, wait for the N gauge one to arrive and then disappear off the face of the earth, having obtained both for the price of one. I'm sure if you'd not wanted the N version quickly they would have credited the refund of the 00 one towards it when they got it back in good condition. I agree they should pay the outward and return postage if it was their mistake. Does the order confirmation email confirm what you actually ordered? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1974 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Paying for a second item then getting a refund for the first is pretty standard for non-modelling items and has happened to me recently. Make sure they refund you your postage though (assuming it was their fault) Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 If they gave an immediate refund in that situation then some low-life could order the 00 version, claim they got the wrong one, wait for the N gauge one to arrive and then disappear off the face of the earth, having obtained both for the price of one. except now they've committed a crime, and the seller has an address. as above, if you ordered the correct item then you are entitled to a full refund of your return postage costs. i would push for a gift certificate for your petrol costs. historically i wouldn't have, but considering how expensive it is to drive places nowadays i would insist. in regards to paying twice, i've had an eBay seller refund me the cost of an item immediately when i said it wasn't as described. i thought that was very trusting of him (and of course i returned it as agreed) but if i were in his shoes i most certainly would not give the money back until the item was back in my possession. in your case i don't feel it's unreasonable to charge you again. if the item was not time-sensitive (i.e. not for a b'day present) then i'd have been happy to return the item and wait for the new one to arrive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hello, All -Thank you for your comments. There are lots of different views on this. However, none quite chime with my own thoughts, so perhaps I'd best state my personal opinion...I entered into a contract with the retailer. I agreed to their terms and conditions and I paid in full. The item ordered was Dapol 2D-012-000 (it states this on the invoice).I received Dapol 4D-012-000.At this point in the proceedings the retailer has failed to fullfil the order/contract. Until they provide me with the item that I paid for they will be in breech of that contract. The fact that they sent me the wrong item has nothing to do with it.However, instead of simply sending me 2D-012-000, they insisted that I pay again.I fully accept that I must return 4D-012-000, but the fullfilment of my original order should not be dependent on me doing so. It is an entirely separate issue. They should simply wait 30 days and if I haven't returned the item they should invoice me for it.It wasn't my fault they sent me the wrong item and it should not be the customer's responsibility to pay for the mistakes of the retailer. Perchpole Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2013 If you have cast iron proof* that the item sent is not the item ordered, they should immediately correct their mistake by sending the correct item without requiring further payment. Collection/return of the incorrect item can then be arranged, and they should ensure that you are not out of pocket. But it is important that you haven't opened or used the incorrect item beyond what is necessary to establish the error, and keep it safe and in good condition if they will be collecting it. *Sending them a photograph of what you received (including the packaging) alongside the order confirmation details might be a good way to do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I always breathe a heavy sigh whenever people get onto their consumer champion high horses. These days it is far too easy to google 'laws' and 'regulations' and then copy and paste them as if that's all you need to do to know more about the retailer's job than they do. Then retailers are called criminals and in breach of contract, etc. What this actually is is a mistake by the retailer that has been rectified. It is simply a human being making an error (which customers never themselves do, ever, obviously... ). Yes they should refund the return postage charge - has this been asked for? It sounds like having called the company concerned, they were courteous and helpful, but simply didn't offer to resolve this in the way the OP felt it should be, but at the end of the day, the wrong item is being returned and refunded, and the new one arrived 24 hours later - I would say that is excellent service myself. If the only outstanding issue is needing the return postage refunded, I really don't understand what the massive issue is here. And as a retailer myself, a big bit of advice here - if you want someone to help you sort out a mistake, but go in straight off with your back up quoting rights and laws and regulations, don't be surprised if you find their backs have gone up as well. Make sure you get the return postage refunded but then give the poor people a break, it was a mistake, and as the saying goes, a very first world problem. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hi, David - I fully apreciate your point of view but you seem to be missing the issue at the heart of the matter. Yes, I did receive the right item 24 hours later - but only after the retailer had charged me for it a second time. That's what I am questioning. I can't fault the service. My issue is with the policy. Perch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hi Perch, but you weren't charged twice for the same item, you were charged for two separate items as the first one was the wrong one. Somewhere someone has probably transposed the 2 on the item code into a 4, then invoiced and despatched it. To correct that, they need the old one back and then to reorder the correct one. The only way round not having to pay for the second one before you had a refund on the first would have been to send it back, wait for the credit then reorder the right one. You may not agree with the principle, but it's how the world works. Flip it around - if you went into a shop and said you wanted to exchange a shirt say, but didn't have the original shirt with you, would you really expect the shop to just let you walk out with a second shirt unpaid, on the promise you'd come back later with the old one? Processes like this aren't just there to satisfy customer expectations, they are there to prevent loss - especially with mail order where is no direct customer contact. Not everyone is honest, and the risk to a business through deception, theft and fraud is far greater than the effect of a few grumpy customers who don't like how the process gets in the way when mistakes occur. Yes it is annoying, but if retailers didn't have controls like this, they would quickly lose all their money and go out of business. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 David -Fair points. However (and purely for the sake of delving deeper), if you - as the retailer - were to send me something I haven't asked for, is it acceptable for you to charge me for it?;0)Perchpole Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Well that's not what happened - you ordered an item but the retailer charged and sent you the wrong one. The example you give above implies someone sending you something unsolicited and then demanding payment. There is no malice here, just a mistake, and mistakes have to be corrected in ways that satisfy all sorts of demands, the customers and the audit trail! You can dig as deep as you like, but the bottom line is they made a mistake, rectified it, but you disagree with how it was handled - and that is entirely understandable. If you are that disgruntled, move your trade elsewhere, just don't expect any other business to handle such a mistake in the way you think it should be dealt with. If a member of my staff did what you wanted and sent out the replacement free of charge before getting the old one back, I would be livid. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted July 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2013 David Sorry, but I think in this instance you are wrong. The retailer made the mistake, not the purchaser. The purchaser certainly shouldn't be charged twice for the same item (which they have been). The fact that the retailer sent the wrong item is the retailer's problem to sort out. I have a degree of sympathy if you had stuck at saying the incorrect item should be sent back before the replacement was sent out. Then it depends on what promises/agreements the retailer made in getting the *correct* item to the purchaser in the first place - for example if I had specifically bought an item and reached an agreement it would be with me in 24 hours then I would expect the retailer to sort it out the next day (ie before the incorrect item was returned or if they were smart they could arrange for that to be picked up at the same time). Ultimately if the purchaser keeps both items the retailer cna charge them for both items. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hi Mike, I think you've misunderstood me - yes, it was the retailer's error, but they did sort it out. My point is that you have to accept businesses need to rectify mistakes within the rules of good business practice, they can't just take someone's word for it. Anyway, hopefully the OP will ask for his postage back and enjoy his swiftly delivered correct model. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Were the two items the same price? If so, the retailer could have done an internal credit note against the incorrect and correct products. The retailer's system described seems to be 19thC to me - one out, one in. Was the correct price charged? If not, any difference owed or due should have been settled. And David, I'm afraid you are not quoting the law in your advice/opinion, you are simply stating ways in which you personally would minimise any loss to a potential fraudster – this is not the same as the law. The retailer in this case has broken their contract and it should be at their loss to correct it. A customer should not pay twice for the same product, regardless if the despatched product was incorrect, the order (a legal contract) states which product should have been delivered – and was already paid for. I noted your thinly-veiled attack on customers who know (or claim to know) their rights, but I find many retailers don't actually know the law they trade within. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hello, All - I just want to point out that the original item I ordered was £111. The item which was delivered in error costs £109. When I asked them to resend the missing item they charged my credit card again for £111. It is precisely for this reason that I assert that I have been charged twice for the item I ordered. Perchpole Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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