Cornish coal traffic in the 1930's

[Chris Chewter]

I'm planning to model the west of Cornwall around Penzance in the 1930's. I'm aware that coal had to be brought in, but I'm struggling to find photographs of how this was done. I'm presuming that it was probably the usual GW marked open wagons, but particularly wanted to find any private owner wagons that may have been used.

 

Does anyone know of any books that cover that area? I've found all the Private Owner Wagon series, but can't see if one covers the Cornish geographical region. 

 

Thanks

[Fat Controller]

Very often, I suspect it would have been brought in by small coastal vessel from South Wales; there were a lot of small colliers that worked from places such as Burry Port and Llanelli to North Devon (that's how my great-grandmother's family got to Burry Port) and Cornwall (that's how another ancestor ended up in Bodmin nick..). It would probably be brought in to locations such as Hayle Wharf, then possibly transhipped into GW or PO wagons.

[The Stationmaster]

Coal was definitely taken into the South West of England by sea and I suspect the only railborne coal direct from colliery areas was for railway use.  As Brian has said there was a substantial coasting trade and in many cases ships worked to South Wales loaded with minerals/metals and back with coal although the minerals/metals part had undoubtedly declined by the inter-war years.

 

But domestic coal movement by coastal shipping definitely continued quite late - coal was still being shipped into Plymouth in the 1970s although of course domestic demand had largely dwindled away by then.

 

(BTW Interesting to see you had an ancestor in Bodmin nick Brian - someone back along in my wife's family also had a spell in there after causing something of an upset in Penzance).

[Fat Controller]

Coal was definitely taken into the South West of England by sea and I suspect the only railborne coal direct from colliery areas was for railway use.  As Brian has said there was a substantial coasting trade and in many cases ships worked to South Wales loaded with minerals/metals and back with coal although the minerals/metals part had undoubtedly declined by the inter-war years.

 

But domestic coal movement by coastal shipping definitely continued quite late - coal was still being shipped into Plymouth in the 1970s although of course domestic demand had largely dwindled away by then.

 

(BTW Interesting to see you had an ancestor in Bodmin nick Brian - someone back along in my wife's family also had a spell in there after causing something of an upset in Penzance).

When was your wife's ancestor in there? Mine was there for the Census in either 1891 or 1901; I haven't found out what it was for, but would hazard a guess at a surfeit of sherbet... 

[bbishop]

Strange place, Cornwall.  There were practically no private owner trader wagons.  The transportation of coal from quay to trader was in the wagons of a small number of factors, the primary one being Renwick, Wilton & Dobson.  Bit boring, because their wagons were black with white lettering, but which they changed fairly often.  Renwick and Wilton set up the firm in the 1890s, Dobson joined in the 1920s.  There is a photo in Hudson vol 4 and I think that POW sides do a kit.

 

Bill

[Adrian Wintle]

Renwick & Wilton were also active in south Devon (based in Torquay), and Dapol have done a couple of wagons with their livery.

 

As an example, although it is Devon, the Torquay gasworks primarily got its coal from Kingswear, shipped from South Wales. It was more economical to ship it this way in the days before 'just-in-time'.

 

Adrian

[The Stationmaster]

When was your wife's ancestor in there? Mine was there for the Census in either 1891 or 1901; I haven't found out what it was for, but would hazard a guess at a surfeit of sherbet... 

Very much earlier in the 19th century Brian - I'm not sure if he was the one convicted on a charge of arson or if the arsonist was the one who was transported to Australia at Govt expense.  I think her distant relations in the Pellew lineage were probably far better connected - with seafaring of course (there, almost back on topic)

[The Dorset Wanderer]

Interesting this. Portreath habour was used to import coal for the mining industry and took out copper etc- the ships were known as the 'Welsh Fleet'.

Google Portreath Harbour coal and a lot of info comes up.

Steve

[Chris Chewter]

Thanks for the information. The transportation by ship does make sense. Why take the long way round?

 

If I have read this correctly, coal would have travelled inland from port by rail in GW marked open wagons.

 

The only thing I cannot work out is whether the Renwick wagons in Cornwall were still marked Dartmouth? Any ideas?

 

Thanks

[The Dorset Wanderer]

Unfortunately it means scouring books and the net- there is a reference to the Helston Gas Co, who had four or five wagons, being offered preferential terms by the GWR to use their wagons in the mid thirties but falls short of where the wagons operated. Research and more research I'm afraid. Worth using google as a start.

Steve

[bbishop]

Thanks for the information. The transportation by ship does make sense. Why take the long way round?

 

If I have read this correctly, coal would have travelled inland from port by rail in GW marked open wagons.

 

I don't think so - surely private owner, but we need confirmation from The Stationmaster.

 

The only thing I cannot work out is whether the Renwick wagons in Cornwall were still marked Dartmouth? Any ideas?

 

Surely

 

Bill

 

Thanks

[Cornish Triang Paul]

Oakwood press' Helston Branch book tells more details but mine is not to hand - belive they had 10 wagons again black with white lettering as per model.

[Kris]

Interesting this. Portreath habour was used to import coal for the mining industry and took out copper etc- the ships were known as the 'Welsh Fleet'.

Google Portreath Harbour coal and a lot of info comes up.

Steve

 

If you get down to Portreath there are a few interpretation boards around the harbour describing its uses and a bit about the railway. The incline that the GWR used is still visible but there is little evidence of the line beyond this. The tram way is now a cycle route. This is easily traced.

[Coombe Barton]

This is from Willie Alford - traction engine owner - of Truthwall, St Just. I met him in 2002 at Kenijack Castle whil;e he was walking his dog, and we got into a conversation. I asked about coal for  Geevor mine - how it got there. It was operating until 1990. He was still around a couple of years ago with his traction engine at the St Buryan Show.

 

Coal came into Penzance by ship from South Wales and was transported to the mines by traction engine with two trailers, 20 tons at a time. Went from Penzance by one of two routes  -over the moors via Newbridge then past where the car park for Chun Castle now is and then to Geevor or via St Just. and then up[ to Trewellard. Frequency - "Couple 'a' times a week"

 

So the answer to the question - by ship from South Wales

[Poggy1165]

Post 1917 open wagons were pooled, so as well as GW wagons you might also get LNE, LMS and SR.

[buffalo]

Post 1917 open wagons were pooled, so as well as GW wagons you might also get LNE, LMS and SR.

Yes, but always try to use photos to get an idea of relative proportions. Some modellers would have you believe that wagons became uniformly distributed over the entire network in direct proportion to the sizes of the companies fleets. Photos often tell a different story.

 

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned loco coal. Presumably, the GWR would have carried this by rail rather than relying on local supplies? Whilst still some way from Cornwall, there's an interesting photo on pages 80-81 of The Great Western in South Devon showing Exeter shed in 1921. In addition to the usual GW loco coal wagons and 4-plank opens, there are are at least two each of five plankers from the MR and GN and four plankers from the LNWR. Perhaps photos of Cornish sheds might tell a similar story?

 

Nick

[Rail-Online]

In answer to the OPs question,

 

The only thing I cannot work out is whether the Renwick wagons in Cornwall were still marked Dartmouth? Any ideas?

 

I am pretty sure they were in a common user 'pool' of all Renwick wagons so would indeed be labelled as Dartmouth. There are pics of them at Bodmin GWR.

 

In addition there were some coal wagons owned by the chna clay industry. These were kept seperate from the china clay end tippers and presumably took coal from the ports to the dries. Again photos exist of these at Bodmin. However the china clay industry had lots of 'take overs' before English China Clays was founded (IIRC around 1926?), so liveries would be short lived.

 

The big question for me is what happened to the empty china clay wagons depositing their cargo in the midlands and north during the 1910-30s (primarily Stoke area).  They had to return to Cornwall for their next load -did they backload from the Staffs coalfield?  I know they then would be contaminated with coal dust but with labour so cheap pre 1939 surely it would be cost effective to get a 'free' backload and wash out the wagons? I have never seen this discussed anywhere nor is anything mentioned in any of keith Turtons books.

 

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

In answer to the OPs question,

 

I am pretty sure they were in a common user 'pool' of all Renwick wagons so would indeed be labelled as Dartmouth. There are pics of them at Bodmin GWR.

 

In addition there were some coal wagons owned by the chna clay industry. These were kept seperate from the china clay end tippers and presumably took coal from the ports to the dries. Again photos exist of these at Bodmin. However the china clay industry had lots of 'take overs' before English China Clays was founded (IIRC around 1926?), so liveries would be short lived.

 

The big question for me is what happened to the empty china clay wagons depositing their cargo in the midlands and north during the 1910-30s (primarily Stoke area).  They had to return to Cornwall for their next load -did they backload from the Staffs coalfield?  I know they then would be contaminated with coal dust but with labour so cheap pre 1939 surely it would be cost effective to get a 'free' backload and wash out the wagons? I have never seen this discussed anywhere nor is anything mentioned in any of keith Turtons books.

 

Tony

As far as I've ever heard china clay wagons were only loaded in one direction - and returned empty.  Even in pre-war days the time taken to clean and dry them would be considerable although labour was obviously fairly cheap the time would be a significant cost in a relatively small fleet.  Plenty of wagons made loaded journeys in only one direction - coal wagons for example - so it wouldn't have been considered unusual to return wagons empty.

[wagonman]

As far as I know the rates charged for mineral traffic allowed for the empty return leg if carried in the freighter's own wagons. As for Renwick Wilton & Co, while their wagon livery varied over the years there was at any one time no differentiation within the fleet – RW&Co wagons could turn up anywhere. The well known photos of Bodmin GWR referred to show a RW&Co wagon along with ECC coal wagons and one from New Rock colliery in Somerset. So it didn't all come in by sea in 1926.