Pre Grouping general discussion

[Dick Turpin]

Well, here's one for the RTR wishlisters: what is the largest class of British locomotive (in terms of numbers built) not to have appeared as a RTR model?

 

EDIT: no quibbling about built in Britain but for export, or RTR as in hand-built in small quantities at great expense - there's a plain, straightforward answer.

 

LNWR DX Goods - 943 built?

[Compound2632]

LNWR DX Goods - 943 built?

 

That's the one. Not only the largest class not done as RTR but simply the largest class.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Dick Turpin]

That's the one. Not only the largest class not done as RTR but simply the largest class.

 

Thought so.

 

 

Question is, would it sell?

[Jol Wilkinson]

Done in LNWR lined livery it probably would sell well, simply because there are sufficient of the "Oooh, isn't it unusual/pretty" brigade to suddenly realise they have always wanted one, but couldn't be bothered to build it from one of kits that have been available.

 

4mm SDX from LRM kit, painted by Ian Rathbone (builder unknown). I can't find a photo of mine and Ian's painting and lining is rather better!

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Thought so.

 

LNWR DX.jpg

 

Question is, would it sell?

 

Built 1858-72, all gone (many rebuilt) by 1904 - so possibly won't appeal to those modelling BR steam.

 

Your photo actually shows a Special DX - Webb's rebuilds from 1881 onwards. These weren't a small class either - about 500 - and survived to the 1920s. Of related classes, the Special Tanks (255 built, some surviving to the late 1950s) and Coal Engines (499 built, survivors to early 1950s) might be a more commercial proposition.

 

Still, it's a niggling little fact to be able to trot out whenever some retailer or manufacturer announces another model of some obscure tank engine of which no more than a handful were built. 

[Brassey]

Done in LNWR lined livery it probably would sell well, simply because there are sufficient of the "Oooh, isn't it unusual/pretty" brigade to suddenly realise they have always wanted one, but couldn't be bothered to build it from one of kits that have been available.

 

4mm SDX from LRM kit, painted by Ian Rathbone (builder unknown). I can't find a photo of mine and Ian's painting and lining is rather better!

 

LRM Special DX Ian Rathbone.jpg

 

Superbly beautiful.  Gives me the motivation to finish off mine before the RTR version comes out!

[Brassey]

I think the LNWR holds the record for carriage construction too

[bbishop]

I think the LNWR holds the record for carriage construction too

 

If it is the largest number of carriages built to a single "diagram", I think the record was held by the L&Y.

 

Bill

[Brassey]

If it is the largest number of carriages built to a single "diagram", I think the record was held by the L&Y.

 

Bill

 

LNWR five compartment 6 wheel third to D297; 827 built.  Versus L&YR eight compartment third to Diagram 34; 808 built.

 

Source: Philip Millard London & North Western 30ft 1in Six-Wheeled Carriages.

[Compound2632]

If it is the largest number of carriages built to a single "diagram", I think the record was held by the L&Y.

 

Bill

 

Runners-up, with LNWR in first place - see here. But when it comes to wagons, the Midland wins by some considerable margin...

 

EDIT: Brassey beat me to it... as a LNWR man you'd expect him to know the passenger business. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

I got one of them.

[Andy Hayter]

There is a study on here that has been reported on "Wright writes...." which currently shows that less than 10% model pre-grouping and slightly more would prefer to.  Food for thought?

 

That is the correct interpretation of the results, not what was originally posted on Tony's thread.

 

As always it is a question of percentage of what?  And the original poster has somehow misunderstood this point.

 

The first question was which periods do you model (list all that applies) - and the answer to that was just under 10%.

The second question was of the periods you model which do you prefer - answer (as of today) rather more than 12%  **

 

There is no aspirational question about what people would prefer to model.  In that case you could perhaps expect an even higher number because for example, there could be Scottish modellers who would like to model Scottish pre-grouping but  a current lack of (rtr) models prevents them.  The same might well apply to many pre-grouping companies but I use this example because of the absolute dearth of models across at least 5 companies (discounting the Triang Caly single).

 

However as you say, food for thought and I hope the manufacturers begin to take note.

 

** The difference between these two numbers and the increase in popularity for pre-grouping between the two questions can be explained thus.  There are (currently) 377 replies to the survey and 787 replies to the question of which eras are modelled.  On average we model 2 and a bit eras.  But when asked the question of which era do we prefer from the era we model, there are more people who model pre-grouping (as one of many) who prefer this era, than those who model other eras. 

[i would however suggest a little caution, since there is at least 1 anomaly in the responses.   9 people expressed no era preference when asked to list all eras they modelled.  14 declared no era preference as their preferred selection - go figure.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Andy Hayter

[Regularity]

It’s “fewer than 10%” and not less, by the way.

But that statement was made outside of our special interest area.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Regularity

[Compound2632]

It’s “fewer than 10%” and not less, by the way.

But that statement was made outside of our special interest area.

 

Because railway modellers are discrete individuals. Pre-groupers are discreet too.

[Caley Jim]

Fraid not. 244 locomotives (counting both 294 and 711 Classes) - small beer.

But they lasted well into BR days, so should be popular with a wide range of modellers.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Are they the largest class of Scottish locomotives? I read that there were 168 of Holmes' Class C engines for the North British, Reid's rebuilt version of which is now to be produced by Hornby. I have the impression (ignorance at a distance) that the Jumbos changed less over their career. However, I expect we'll see an 812/652, of which there were a mere 96, first.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Argos]

That's the one. Not only the largest class not done as RTR but simply the largest class.

 

Also used by several pre-grouping companies, the Lancashire and Yorkshire had a batch (40?)  built for them and the North Staffordshire also had two.

 

Several smaller concerns bought the locos 2nd hand. The DXs seem to crop up everywhere if you look

[Compound2632]

Here's a DX in original form:

 

 

I read that 86 were built for the Lancashire & Yorkshire before the private builders got their injunction in 1873. 

 

Is that a youngish Francis Webb in the pale jacket and straw hat?

Edited February 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

Be careful.

The Lanky batch were to Ramsbottom’s original design, with top-hinged smokebox door (slightly dished) and a boiler two inches greater in diameter, pitched 2” lower (and it does make a difference to the looks) and with a shorter firebox than the LNWR rebuilds. They also remained unfitted.

The locos that the Knotty had were full Webb rebuilds, and vacuum fitted.

Some early rebuilds had the Webb boiler, but retained a Ramsbottom smoke-box door.

 

Not all DXs were rebuilt, and most were not vacuum fitted to become “special DX”s. The last was withdrawn 1930 ish.

 

I think that given its longevity, and capability to be converted to similar engines elsewhere (with varying degrees of accuracy, but all to a smaller percentage error than 00 track), and the beautiful original blue livery, the Caley Drummond 0-6-0 would be a good prototype.

[Compound2632]

Be careful.

 

Indeed. Don't let's confuse DX and SDX - about as similar as a Holmes Class C and a J36.

[Regularity]

Better photo of my model:

 

Tender body wrapper was a Stan Garlick cast off (still don’t know what was wrong with it!) I cut the mainframes, but Trevor Nunn spirited the bits away to do a “couple of jobs” in return for the hundreds of hours I spent helping with Wicken and East Lynn. It cam back largely complete, bar boiler bands, detail on the backhead, ash pan operating rod, screw-jack and brakes on the tender, and paint. I wasn’t complaining when I said, “But I thought you were just going to help out with the open splashers.” He told me that the engine was quite different to how GER engines were put together, and he got carried away...

 

Being S Scale, it is handbuilt, of course.

EWJR number 8, by the way. Unfortunately we only found out about the earlier Ramsbottom boiler dimensions after it was finished. I was gratified (and amazed) by the number of people who recognised it at the Leamington show circa 2003.

 

I must, at some point, get around to building one of the outside framed 0-6-0s to go with it - already have a 2-4-0T and some goods stock.

[Brassey]

My SDX will probably end up looking more like this:

 

[Compound2632]

I don't think I've seen a photo of the underside of a Webb tender before. Is the scoop meant to be that way round?

[Brassey]

EDIT: Brassey beat me to it... as a LNWR man you'd expect him to know the passenger business. 

 

Hey my allegiance is nailed firmly to the railway room wall:

 

 

Note the authentic GW orange chrome wall

[Brassey]

 

GWR loco, LNWR carriages, northern passengers