Pre Grouping general discussion

[coachmann]

Did that include any of the Barton-Wright rebuilds into saddle tanks Larry? My books are packed away but I thought one of them lasted into the sixties.

Yes I'm sure you are right. I recall watching a LYR Saddletank charging the incline into Higginshaw Gas Works in 1961. They were common enough the year before so Newton Heath must have had turns up to Oldham and Royton Junction. My first kick at firing was on such a loco near Moses Gate, Bolton, when in the first weeks training. The crew used a short hand shovel because of the restricted space.......Worth remembering on a model should someone produce a 2F Saddletank.

[Etched Pixels]

51336 built 31/07/1877, rebuilt 1891, scrapped 30/11/1960

 

That must be a pretty good contender ?

[TheQ]

More disposable income Jol I and many other government and local government employees would beg to differ as a teacher and an old one at that I receive less per year than the cap on benefits £26,000 per annum.Only just less but there it is.

As a degree holding electronics technician of 35 years experience, by my standards that make you rich!!

The Q

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

51336 built 31/07/1877, rebuilt 1891, scrapped 30/11/1960

 

That must be a pretty good contender ?

 For oldest loco at withdrawal? In the BR period, Hugh Longworth's mighty compendium, appendix 6 hands the palm to 58865 built 1858, rebuilt 1872, withdrawn 1951. Among the grouped companies it is possible that something slightly more venerable put in even longer service. Didn't the LMS have some incredibly ancient saddle tank at Wolverton that had been rebuilt by Ramsbottom?

[coachmann]

I had forgotten about the LNWR 'Special Tanks', although in fairness they were restricted to Works use. On the otherhand, the 5' 3" Irish counterparts were in regular traffic in the 1950s still hauling coaches in LNWR plum and white.

[Pacific231G]

Ohmisterporter, on 05 Dec 2013 - 19:29, said:

 

There used to be an Early Railway Group, promoting early railways funnily enough. I saw them at a couple of Guildex shows at Telford. I think they may have folded now, whether that was due to lack of interest in pre-grouping or something else I am not sure. At Telford they had a short plank with Scottish trains running back and forth (pun intended) and I thought the attractions of early railways was evident for all to see. My own thoughts were towards narrow gauge, or I could have been tempted by those little 2-4-0s and single wheelers. At the same shows were Bob Harper's GWR broad gauge layouts, kits available from the BGS, showing what could be done in broad gauge.

Could this be the Early Railways Group of the Railway & Canal Historical Society? This is one of several Special Interest Groups (SIGs) within the RCHS and it focuses on early railways and tramways defined as railways which were pre-main line in concept if not necessarily in date in other words the type of railway and tramway that came before the Stephensons even if it was built later.

They're clearly still going, are one of the organisers of an early railways conference every four years and produce papers. They wouldn't necessarily though be very visible outside the RCHS.

 

The society has several other SIGs which would probably more cover the pre- grouping era. More about them on http://www.rchs.org.uk

Edited December 10, 2013 by Pacific231G

[Etched Pixels]

34theletter.. the question was

 

 

I've also been wondering what were the oldest main line steam locos in Britain during the final decade or so of steam.

 

But yes for the general case the oldest is the NLR steam crane tank 58865, although it spent that entire time at Bow Works, except for being trundled to Derby for scrapping.

 

Alan

[LNWR lives on]

I had forgotten about the LNWR 'Special Tanks', although in fairness they were restricted to Works use. On the otherhand, the 5' 3" Irish counterparts were in regular traffic in the 1950s still hauling coaches in LNWR plum and white.

 

There was 4 at Wolverton in later years, 3 numbered ones and a named one which I think Was Earlstown, ironically I read it in a magazine last night which when I get home I will try and divulge the rest of the information if anyone is interested

[LNWR lives on]

From Railway Bylines, Vol 14, Issue 10, September 09

 

Early 1950's 4 remained at the works, numbered in the carriage Department fleet as CD3, CD6 and CD7, the fourth was named Earlestown as she had once resided at Earlestown Wagon works. CD6 was Westinghouse fitted, and CD7 was the only one to receive British Railway Lettering, the others got the insignia.

 

It states all 4 survived until 1959, with the age range being between 79 and 89 years

 

Its an interesting couple of pages as it contrasts with the GWR at Swindon, where they used whatever was withdrawn until it was scrapped, some being a few weeks to a few months, against the LNWR who seem to have assigned locos to the works and left them there for long periods of time

[Tin Turtle]

For anyone interested in the North Eastern Railway and/or railways during the First World War - first copies of my book arrived yesterday, and should be on general sale within a few days

 

 

[attachment=356892:NERWW1.JPG]

[coachmann]

With two pre-grouping threads, I posted this in't wrong one. The fascination of pre-grouping was, to me, it's existence in the 1940s and 50s. 35 years ago looked excitingly nostalgic when I was young and the best of it was we could still ride in pre-1923 coaches behind old locomotives. On one accasion a low arc roof coach was spotted in the middle of an excursion that had rolled into Oldham Mumps around 1952. Thinking back, it could only have been one of the 56ft rebuilds of two LNWR 4-wheel bodies on a single chassis. So modelling the early 1950's allows me to have pre-groupling and modern.

 

[technohand]

I am trying to model a bit of the Midland Railway in about 1900.It involves a lot of research.Joining a society-The Midland Railway Society-and of course building every thing from kits and scratch.

As a result there ain't much built at the moment except a load of trucks some carriages an engine and a half and quite a few Midland style points (switches) and a base board to house everything.

So you have to be patient!

You also have to chose something do able.

Don't worry about painting.Most lining in 4mm scale would be about 2 thou wide so a bit of dirt hides it and if you look at the pictures every thing was almost as dirty as BR in the fifties.

The best modellers in my group are self taught solderers and fitters and we help one another.As an engineer I had to forget about tolerances to make things work so take heart.

Best of all No one can tell you IT WASN'T LIKE THAT! they are all dead!!

So give it a go.

 

Tony 

[coachmann]

I am trying to model a bit of the Midland Railway in about 1900.It involves a lot of research.Joining a society-The Midland Railway Society-and of course building every thing from kits and scratch.

As a result there ain't much built at the moment except a load of trucks some carriages an engine and a half and quite a few Midland style points (switches) and a base board to house everything.

So you have to be patient!

You also have to chose something do able.

Don't worry about painting.Most lining in 4mm scale would be about 2 thou wide so a bit of dirt hides it and if you look at the pictures every thing was almost as dirty as BR in the fifties.

The best modellers in my group are self taught solderers and fitters and we help one another.As an engineer I had to forget about tolerances to make things work so take heart.

Best of all No one can tell you IT WASN'T LIKE THAT! they are all dead!!

So give it a go.

 

Tony 

That's a unique take on the Midland. Try reading books by authors who were there!  

Edited January 2, 2014 by coachmann

[technohand]

Done that. Don't you think the Midland Publicity department might have bulled things up a bit for the writers of the day or am I being cynical.

Tony

[Brassey]

 

I can't speak for the Midland but the lining on LNWR rolling stock was definitely very clearly visible.  The locos were also spotless in pre-grouping days when they went off shed. I'm not referring to contemporary accounts; there are thousands of photos in the LNWR Society library that prove it.

[asmay2002]

I can't speak for the Midland but the lining on LNWR rolling stock was definitely very clearly visible.  The locos were also spotless in pre-grouping days when they went off shed. I'm not referring to contemporary accounts; there are thousands of photos in the LNWR Society library that prove it.

 

You have to be a bit careful of this sort of generalisation. Yes there were a lot of clean locos, but it is also well known that photographers of that era generally didn't bother with dirty locos unless they were rare types (photography was expensive and people didn't waste plates on a dirty loco when a clean one would be along soon anyway).  There was also the phenomenon of clean but with damaged paintwork.  Photos of LBSCR locos often show a spotless loco with the paint worn away in places to polished bare metal (a different sort of weathering is needed to represent this).

Edited January 4, 2014 by asmay2002

[Brassey]

Yes I did caveat my comment with "off shed".  Here's an official LNWR pic to prove it.  The black DX 1979 in the background is unlined.

 

Edited January 4, 2014 by Brassey

[t-b-g]

You have a bit of a choice when it comes to weathering. A friend of mine had a relative who worked for the MS&LR in the 1890s. He was told that the loco crews way back when wore white overalls and if management spotted them with dirt on the overalls they were disciplined, up to and including sacking.

 

Labour was relatively easy to come by at low wage rates and most of the pre-grouping companies employed large numbers of cleaners.

 

So you can either go on the available evidence, which is that most photographs show clean locos, or you can make an assumption that there were many dirty locos about and only a very small number got a camera pointed at them.

 

Whatever the truth is, the modelling perception is that locos and carriages, certainly prior to 1914, were generally clean and well looked after. Even if it is the case that the real railways were as dirty as they were in the 1950s (and the rot really didn't set in until the 1960s - the 1950 passenger train was usually half decent) it may well look wrong because it is not what most people are expecting to see.

 

The big change didn't come in 1923, it was in 1914. The vast majority of photos of less than perfect pre-grouping locos are photos taken between 1914 and 1923.

 

Still, it is a very interesting and novel take on the modelling of the pre-grouping scene and I wish you well with it. If you do want to make your locos so dirty that you can't see the lining, I would perhaps suggest a 1914-1918 wartime layout.

 

For me, I will continue to lightly weather my freight locos and to even more lightly weather my passenger locos! Freight stock, I am happy that it could vary from clean to filthy and passenger stock will have clean sides with a tiny bit of dirt in crevices but various degrees of weathering on the roof and underframe.

 

I have just plucked up courage to paint a GCR signal overall muck coloured to match a period photo. Although it is accurate, it just doesn't seem right somehow so it may get "de-weathered" before it goes on the layout.

 

Tony

[billbedford]

If you go back and read the Great Central Railway Magazine for the years after about 1910, there a number of ex loco men bemoaning the state of the then current locos, especially those used on coal trains.

[coachmann]

The wealtheir pre-grouping railway companies did not paint their locos and stock in elborate liveries just to let them get so dirty that the lining did not show. Steam locos get dirty naturally and unclad things like smokeboxes soon lose their lustre, but pre-World War One Britain wasn't post World War two Britain and it is highly unlikely that locos were ever allowed to get into the state even approaching that routinely seen on BR. 

Edited January 4, 2014 by coachmann

[t-b-g]

If you go back and read the Great Central Railway Magazine for the years after about 1910, there a number of ex loco men bemoaning the state of the then current locos, especially those used on coal trains.

 

Were the complaints specifically about the locos being dirty or did they relate to the mechanical condition and the ability of older smaller locos to haul the rapidly growing amount of coal being moved just before WW1. It is maybe no coincidence that what became the O4 was introduced to move large amounts of coal in 1911.

 

I have read lots of accounts of loco crews complaining about the mechanical condition of locos but very few concerning the outward appearance, which, particularly on coal trains, matters little.

 

Tony

[t-b-g]

Lovely photo, but that's a large shed and the loco is one of the famed Teutonics - top link locos and pride of the line at the time, so spotless would be the order of the day.

They always were, of course. More interestingly, the black is a bit duller in lustre. Not matt, but nowhere near "blackberry black".

What is more interesting is that it is one of the early Webb rebuilds/overhauls, with a Webb boiler (smaller diameter, higher pitch) but still with a Ramsbottom style smoke box.

 

Is it significant that the second division, old, DX loco, that didn't even get lining, still seems to have the attention of at least two cleaners and will probably be nice and shiny again before it goes out? The boiler is much shinier than the rest of the loco, so it looks as though that is the bit they are doing first.

 

Tony

[Etched Pixels]

Also of course be very careful interpreting images that included red lining - the photographic stock of the period can have more to do with the apparent visibility than dirt.

 

Alan

[billbedford]

Were the complaints specifically about the locos being dirty or did they relate to the mechanical condition and the ability of older smaller locos to haul the rapidly growing amount of coal being moved just before WW1. It is maybe no coincidence that what became the O4 was introduced to move large amounts of coal in 1911.

 

The complaints were about the locos being dirty and unkempt. Most were made with the sentiment of things 'not being like this in my day'.

 

Difficult to believe, since we all have grown out of such pettiness, haven't we.......

[Poggy1165]

 

 

I have just plucked up courage to paint a GCR signal overall muck coloured to match a period photo. Although it is accurate, it just doesn't seem right somehow so it may get "de-weathered" before it goes on the layout.

 

Tony

 

Tony, I believe that at one point the GC did not paint its signal posts white. I just don't recall what the alternative colour was or how long this was done. Unfortunately I don't have the source to hand it's just one of those things 'I was told'. 

Brian