Where are the Hornby models?

[Ian Hargrave]

Ah but at what price?

The models I am talking about have been exhaustively previewed for some time.Some retailers will doubtless be able to quote you.We are not talking anything eye watering here.

A question......can you put a price on quality ? The want of it in certain quarters has been extensively aired on this forum.Cutting costs has certainly done us no favours in that area.

[robmcg]

Interesting to see that he is still around but alas I can't remember his other trading name (assuming he is still selling under two different Ebay identities, he definitely was a few years back).  His markup seems to still be between 305 and 50% with up to 100% on some items - always amusing to compare what some of these Ebay folk sell at with what one happens to know they are buying in at

 

Even if  tinplateman's mark-up is 30-100% as you suggest (what evidence?) he must pay for the outstanding photography, the Ebay commission, packet post, and his time, which is  comparable to a shop, albeit the latter would be more likely a Hornby-supplied business. The items I look at are very good quality, he would be subject to just as many returns as a shop, he packs things well, he/she is/are polite and professional.   Surely if he is buying-in, as you put it, with a wink, at half to two-thirds of his asking price, and then has to pay for preparation, ads, commission and photography,  you surely cannot resent that?

 

Where else would you buy a rare Hornby model rebuilt Light Pacific , perfect condition, new or as new, for £120 post free in the UK? Do you think Hornby could supply one at wholesale £60-80   I don't think so, and if he has obtained ex-shop stock well that is between him and his supplier.

 

edit  He has an as-new or new Bachmann Std 5MT 73110 at £70 p+p free right now, the suggestion that he is somehow 'amusing' is in fact laughable

[The Stationmaster]

Even if  tinplateman's mark-up is 30-100% as you suggest (what evidence?) he must pay for the outstanding photography, the Ebay commission, packet post, and his time, which is  comparable to a shop, albeit the latter would be more likely a Hornby-supplied business. The items I look at are very good quality, he would be subject to just as many returns as a shop, he packs things well, he/she is/are polite and professional.   Surely if he is buying-in, as you put it, with a wink, at half to two-thirds of his asking price, and then has to pay for preparation, ads, commission and photography,  you surely cannot resent that?

 

Where else would you buy a rare Hornby model rebuilt Light Pacific , perfect condition, new or as new, for £120 post free in the UK? Do you think Hornby could supply one at wholesale £60-80   I don't think so, and if he has obtained ex-shop stock well that is between him and his supplier.

 

edit  He has an as-new or new Bachmann Std 5MT 73110 at £70 p+p free right now, the suggestion that he is somehow 'amusing' is in fact laughable

I certainly didn't suggest that he was buying in with any kind of 'wink' did I?  And di I mention buying from Hornby - I think not.

 

I just happen to know what some of this stuff is bought in for because I have been at the place (or rather one of the places) where various well known EBay sellers happen to buy, simple as that.  If you watch how much a particular lot sells for and you know the add-ons then you know how much has been paid for it - a remarkably simple process and utterly transparent.  You can't always follow things in that way of course but there is a general market price which dealers are prepared to buy in at and some items are very traceable from their appearance at the place where the Ebayer buys to their appearance on his site.

 

If someone is selling a  Hornby light pacific on Ebay for £120 and it's not one of the rarer models then I would be surprised if he paid more than equal £50-60 for it unless the market has shot up since I last watched it closely (which is some months ago).  Average price for Bachmann locos - other than the latest models - tends to be c.£40-50, while Hornby locos have been less apart from the most popular ones, you be looking very miseraable if you were to pay more than an average of about £25 - 35 for Lima locos in top condition.  So it certainly - in my view - amusing, and a long way from laughable, to compare the prices such people pay to buy in stock with what they sell it for because they are quite often shoving on a very considerable mark up.  But as long as they're paying tax on their income from dealing (which some reportedly do) why should we worry, we can buy just as easily as they can from their usual sources.

 

Anyone can buy at these sort of prices the only problem usually is that to get the one loco you happen to want you might have to buy it in a lot of 4 or 5 which can mean laying out a couple of hundred quid or more.

[robmcg]

I just bought 73110 'The Red Knight', surely one of the most bizarre BR named engines along with other ex-Arthur names on the Southern Region after 1963, and also his 'Westward Ho' ... a bit high a £120 but what can you do if you want Hornby's best? I would rather have had 'Ottery St Mary' but that has been sold to someone else by the look of it.

Each advertised with 6 good photos.   these samples reduced in size.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

....A question......can you put a price on quality ...

Yes. If you are prepared to pony up for my consultancy, I shall be happy to divulge the technique.

[robmcg]

I certainly didn't suggest that he was buying in with any kind of 'wink' did I?  And di I mention buying from Hornby - I think not.

 

I just happen to know what some of this stuff is bought in for because I have been at the place (or rather one of the places) where various well known EBay sellers happen to buy, simple as that.  If you watch how much a particular lot sells for and you know the add-ons then you know how much has been paid for it - a remarkably simple process and utterly transparent.  You can't always follow things in that way of course but there is a general market price which dealers are prepared to buy in at and some items are very traceable from their appearance at the place where the Ebayer buys to their appearance on his site.

 

If someone is selling a  Hornby light pacific on Ebay for £120 and it's not one of the rarer models then I would be surprised if he paid more than equal £50-60 for it unless the market has shot up since I last watched it closely (which is some months ago).  Average price for Bachmann locos - other than the latest models - tends to be c.£40-50, while Hornby locos have been less apart from the most popular ones, you be looking very miseraable if you were to pay more than an average of about £25 - 35 for Lima locos in top condition.  So it certainly - in my view - amusing, and a long way from laughable, to compare the prices such people pay to buy in stock with what they sell it for because they are quite often shoving on a very considerable mark up.  But as long as they're paying tax on their income from dealing (which some reportedly do) why should we worry, we can buy just as easily as they can from their usual sources.

 

Anyone can buy at these sort of prices the only problem usually is that to get the one loco you happen to want you might have to buy it in a lot of 4 or 5 which can mean laying out a couple of hundred quid or more.

 

Well, there was a winking yellow things at the end of your reference to the prices he bought thing in at. I took that to be a wink, but don't know what it means.

 

I also don't know what you mean by regular Ebay sellers and places they buy things, except perhaps they attend general auctions? I sell regularly on an NZ auction site but I certainly never see Bachmann or Hornby quality items offered there for the prices you suggest, £40-70, unless in 'job lots' and the transparent profits you suggest are, I suggest, quite hard to realise. Certainly many less rare or less desirable RTR 00 engines can be bought of around £50 , but not Hornby rebuilt Light Pacifics, unless you are lucky or prepared to take a risk,  which isn't practical for me from NZ.  Nor could you commonly buy a new Bachmann Std. Class 5MT for £40...

 

I do have an interest in the value of s/h or new unused models generally, and must have mis-read your meaning in your post about transparency and markups by this 'regular Ebay seller'. I say if he/she can buy desirable mint rare models like Hornby Light Pacifics and make 20-40 quid for his time, advertise attractively, and guarantee quality and delivery, good on him, or her.

 

 

 

 

 

Rob

[robmcg]

Interesting to see that he is still around but alas I can't remember his other trading name (assuming he is still selling under two different Ebay identities, he definitely was a few years back).  His markup seems to still be between 305 and 50% with up to 100% on some items - always amusing to compare what some of these Ebay folk sell at with what one happens to know they are buying in at

 

This was the wink you apparently did not make Mike in reference to 'buying in at', in reply to msg. 1228 where I was describing buying Hornby models, to which you were apparently not referring. 

 

So I still don't quite get your point about being 'amused' by markups of 30-50%, or 100% 'on some items'.

 

Is the markup to which you refer above an amount beyond all his/her costs, in other words, does the cost of 'buying in' include the advertising, photography, commission, postage, and time involved in such trade? (just out of interest, so we are not at cross-purposes). I would admire someone who could make significant money from RTR 00 engines at the moment whether by the Ebay market or a shop.

 

typo edits

 

and edit; p.s. no argument intended, I just didn't/don't understand your meaning

 

and while I am here, here is the model illustrated earlier but with details added with editing. How can anyone not worship Bulleid?

 

 

 

 

 

[toboldlygo]

How can anyone not worship Bulleid?

 

Does involve blood sacrifice and ritualistic burning of the unbelievers?     

[Ian Hargrave]

Does involve blood sacrifice and ritualistic burning of the unbelievers?     

And the ashes interred in an empty can of Spam.

[Bernard Lamb]

Ritualistic burning has to be done using Irish turf as a fuel if you are to get the details correct.

Bernard

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Only in Eire. In the UK the sump oil is the approved fuel, burnt on a bed of boiler lagging.

[The Stationmaster]

This was the wink you apparently did not make Mike in reference to 'buying in at', in reply to msg. 1228 where I was describing buying Hornby models, to which you were apparently not referring. 

 

So I still don't quite get your point about being 'amused' by markups of 30-50%, or 100% 'on some items'.

 

Is the markup to which you refer above an amount beyond all his/her costs, in other words, does the cost of 'buying in' include the advertising, photography, commission, postage, and time involved in such trade? (just out of interest, so we are not at cross-purposes). I would admire someone who could make significant money from RTR 00 engines at the moment whether by the Ebay market or a shop.

 

typo edits

 

and edit; p.s. no argument intended, I just didn't/don't understand your meaning

 

Rob the mark up is the simple difference between what they pay to buy in the item and what they sell it for - obviously then have to not only cover their costs out of that mark up but also, hopefully, make a profit.  If they buy at auction - which more than a few of the bigger Ebay traders invariably do as it is the only way they can get stock in at the rate they need to in order to sustain their business they will be paying the sort of figures I quoted because based on attending more than a few auctions over recent years I am reasonably familiar with the prices stuff realises, hence the figures I quoted although as I haven't been to an auction for some months the prices might well have risen of late.

 

To those prices you need to add commission plus the VAT on that commission and depending on the auction house involved that will add around 20-25% to the hammer price.  It is as simple as that and, as I have said, all totally transparent if you can directly link prices paid at auction to items being sold on Ebay by some of the regular dealers who are on there.  Now you also need to understand that there can be very big money involved - I have seen Ebay dealers spend £20,000 at auctions and I remember one occasion when one regular came along and explained to various people that his limit that day was £12,000 (in total).  But they are in many cases running a business and just like any other business they need to buy in stock - my original point was that it is interesting to see the difference between what they pay and what they sell at.

 

Another point is that it is always possible to beat a dealer in bidding at auction with the possible exception of them having a well-heeled client already lined.  For example a few years ago I was able to secure a number of timetables bidding against a book seller (who I wouldn't categorise as a profiteer by any stretch of the imagination) by the simple process of going one bid above his maximum.  So - for example - what I bought for £200 on the hammer he would have been selling for at least £300 retail in order to cover his costs and make a profit, and he couldn't afford to buy-in at a cost which reduced his margin because he knew the retail market price of the item.

 

The Ebay sellers work in exactly the same way - they generally know what they can get for an item so they will normally bid up to a maximum which covers their costs and will give them a good profit margin while at the same time giving them items which will sell quickly.  Equally some of them will happily buy lots which contain junk in order to secure something which will sell although occasionally they miss out on a goodie because they haven't had time to go through a box in detail while someone like me has (and even then I've occasinally had very pleasant surprises when I've got to the bottom of a boxed lot and come across rare kits or Portescap motors).  Some of it is luck but generally the big Ebay sellers are shrewd buyers working on known margins and knowing exactly how much profit they will make - which is why I find it amusing because whatever their end buyer pays they are generally doing well out of it.

[Nimbus]

The models I am talking about have been exhaustively previewed for some time.Some retailers will doubtless be able to quote you.

 

... if only we knew what to ask them about !

 

The Nim.

[toboldlygo]

And the ashes interred in an empty can of Spam.

 

 

Ritualistic burning has to be done using Irish turf as a fuel if you are to get the details correct.

Bernard

 

 

Only in Eire. In the UK the sump oil is the approved fuel, burnt on a bed of boiler lagging.

Talk about following the LEADER

[Ian Hargrave]

Talk about following the LEADER

Who he?

[Ian Hargrave]

... if only we knew what to ask them about !

 

The Nim.

I think we've been here before.....I'll not take the bait.To do so would compromise someone's livelihood....which I am not prepared to do.

[toboldlygo]

Who he?

You know the one who made the Coffee-Pot

[Ian Hargrave]

You know the one who made the Coffee-Pot

Grounds for dismissal,then.

[robmcg]

It is good that we can have these erudite discussions covering the weightier issues of the day.

 

Why do I have an ever-growing number of Bulleid Pacifics to photograph? Most bought at well under £100

 

Will I be able to sell them for £150 each?

 

Sincerely yours

 

Hopeful.

[Mike70]

Tinplatelad seems to have a few fans on here. Anyone used peteslocos?

 

I'm beginning to think your better off buying some of the older models at the moment.

[robmcg]

I've never bought off Petes Locos his prices and product may be fair but compulsory insurance for overseas shipment puts me off, presumably he has been burned by unscrupulous Ebay buyers. He does go on, too!

 

Tinplatelad seems fair and I haven't bought off him/her until a week ago (from memory)  but is with several sales to me in the last few days professional fast and polite. 

 

There are several excellent Ebay sellers, one in Peterborough, one in Preston, (I forget their exact names, one is 'kitlady', another good seller I have bought from is 'Model Railway Collectables') each has given me excellent price and service, and I agree that second hand new or near new is a nice way to shop for the better Hornby and Bachmann 00 RTR model engines. Even nicer with VAT registered sellers who can deduct the tax for me! e.g Hattons and some smaller web-based sellers.

 

The best bargains are local UK sellers who don't offer buy now but many will not post to overseas addresses, fair enough, it's a pain to do international mail only occasionally. I saw a mint Britannia 70000 go for under £70 last week. Actually it might have been lightly weathered, nicely done too. Worth £100  except I don't REALLY need another Brit! .

 

I'm sure there are others which are even better bargains, especially at job-lot auctions which Stationmaster describes.

 

It certainly answers the question, "Where are the Hornby models." And yes, I think mint 2007-8 models seem about the best for quality too, although every model has errors.

[Roy P]

Tinplatelad seems to have a few fans on here. Anyone used peteslocos?

 

I'm beginning to think your better off buying some of the older models at the moment.

Come on now! Keep it quiet!

 

RP

[Roy P]

This does seem to the right time to buy some of the better items from the recent past that we may have missed first time around.

I'm trying do it before everyone catches on to the value of what might be Hornby's "Golden Age".

 

Taking Rob's hint, I've bought quite a bit of Hornby (including a King Arthur from Tinplatelad) in the last few months but sadly nothing new from them for a while. 

 

RP

[Mike70]

My last new purchase was Duchess of Abercorn. I've not had any problems with it.

 

But the issues with the Great Goodbye locos, are a cause for concern.

['CHARD]

....

The best bargains are local UK sellers who don't offer buy now but many will not post to overseas addresses, fair enough, it's a pain to do international mail only occasionally. I saw a mint Britannia 70000 go for under £70 last week. Actually it might have been lightly weathered, nicely done too. Worth £100  except I don't REALLY need another Brit! .

....

It certainly answers the question, "Where are the Hornby models." And yes, I think mint 2007-8 models seem about the best for quality too, although every model has errors.

 

I've similar experience to yours regarding the sellers you mention, Rob.  Plus my recent good fortune with the Brit being sold on eBay by a Warrington Cash Converters.  

 

The 'golden years' for me coincide with the A3, Black 5 and Brit at their core, extending out to the B1.  Bear in mind, those are their recent classes that really support my Waverline motives!