Where are the Hornby models?

[Ozexpatriate]

We should be aware that we, as '00' minority production items, we are NOT the be all and end all of the 'toy' demand in the world.  In fact we could probably disappear and not raise more then a few bubbles in the pond!

As context, Hornby's model railway revenues for their 2012/13 year were 39% of £57.4m or £22.4m, which includes the international brands.

 

Kader Holdings model railway revenues for 2013 at the current rate of exchange were £43.1m. (One presumes this includes all of the Bachmann Branch-Line, Graham Farish, Liliput, and American Bachmann revenues in addition to some business from people like Hornby and other railway manufacturers that Kader might still do business with like Walthers/Life Like.)

[The Stationmaster]

As context, Hornby's model railway revenues for their 2012/13 year were 39% of £57.4m or £22.4m, which includes the international brands.

 

Kader Holdings model railway revenues for 2013 at the current rate of exchange were £43.1m. (One presumes this includes all of the Bachmann Branch-Line, Graham Farish, Liliput, and American Bachmann revenues in addition to some business from people like Hornby and other railway manufacturers that Kader might still do business with like Walthers/Life Like.)

The interesting question there is 'revenue at what business level'?  Hornby's figures appear to be either the retail value or the wholesale value ex Margate while Kader's figures are bound to include ex-factory values (including stuff sold to Hornby of course).  Thus in terms of vaguely equivalent items, e.g. locos, Kader's 'sales' are likely to include disporoportionately much higher numbers than Hornby's by virtue of the stage in the process at which each company takes its 'value' from a sale.

[Ozexpatriate]

Hornby's figures appear to be either the retail value or the wholesale value ex Margate while Kader's figures are bound to include ex-factory values (including stuff sold to Hornby of course)..

Mike, yes. In both cases it is actual revenue into the company in real currency.

 

Hornby's revenues are a combination of retail (direct) and wholesale (to re-sellers). Kader's revenues would be a combination of retail (probably very small), wholesale and supplier to supplier OEM revenue.

[cheesysmith]

I keep reading this thread, and I know Hornby has had supply problems, like everyone has had with china. The previous management must take some responsibility for the poor business decisions like the Olympic marketing flop, but also for the poor way in which they managed the fallout from what was happening in china, and giving promises of delivery dates that turned out to be just fiction. They many have been given these date by their Chinese suppliers but did they actually have proper procedures in place to ensure what they were told was correct, and not just a hopeful promiss.

 

As to the new management, they have the hard task of restoring customer confidence in what they market and when they market. As to the pricing of hornbys models, I am lucky there has been nowt I want from Hornby lately. I do think that the market can set a better guide as to what the models are worth than Hornby can by using the reduced discount to retailers and direct sales they are doing. After all, some of the new stuff I would pay the Hornby price for if it was something I required, but for some of the things they make, the price they want to charge is just a joke. Take for example the ld Lima 31. Good body shape, but using bit from different versions of the loco though it's history to make a version that none would have ever been seen in. Or the HAA railroad wagon, a toolin mold that by now has to cost them nothing and is designed as a cheep quick to make clip together set of self coloured mouldings.

 

Where are the Hornby models, at the price they want for (some) of them, it doesn't matter because I can't afford them anyway.

[robmcg]

Whatever happened to the crispy bacon we had before the war?

 

enter; Hornby wartime black Duchess LMS 6243 'City of Lancaster' with Hornby Staniers, working hard with stupendous wartime or immediately post-war loads,  engine factory weathered by Hornby, from VE 1945 trainpack.

 

 

 

working on a Duchess as Abercorn today.. starting with this, which sort-of shows from where I begin my 'editing'...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robmcg]

here is a result of a few minutes, for those who think editing is dishonest; I have painted around the front a little, and grafted another photo focussed on the rear half of the engine, I think it's called zone-focussing...  superb model in my view.

 

 

details added... steps, hoses, handrails, sanders, cylinder drains, cylinder faces darkened, and generally made into the glorious Stanier masterpiece she was...

 

Most of the editing could have been done with the accessory pack opened, some other details like sanders and cylinder drains added,  who can honestly say that Hornby have lost the plot?

 

[Steffi_C]

superb model in my view.

 

 

who can honestly say that Hornby have lost the plot?

 

Well, your front bogie looks no better a fit to the rails than the one described by Free At Last.  You've a bit of work to do if you're planning to actually power her up.

[robmcg]

Well, your front bogie looks no better a fit to the rails than the one described by Free At Last.  You've a bit of work to do if you're planning to actually power her up.

 

It fits my track fine and runs well. The first of the three pics shows the fit, straight out of the box.

 

edit;  Just checked again, in fact it is silent smooth and excellent, as it was straight from the box.

 

Just out of interest, did your model with a loose front bogie have no packing between bogie and frame?

[robmcg]

here is another Hornby model recently criticised for poor quality, weathered by TMC  runs well, looks excellent.

 

I have painted a little around the front to enhance it, in my eyes, it too fits my track, both hand-assembled C&L code 75 and Peco code 75 flexitrack well.

 

I'm unsure about what you mean by 'work to do'.

 

Also I have a pic with detailing added by editing. This model cost under £100 delivered (VAT free) tracked airmail to NZ good value, thankyou Hornby and TMC. More pics to follow no doubt.

 

more-or-less out of the box

 

 

details added

 

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

typo edit

[Steffi_C]

I'm unsure about what you mean by 'work to do'.

 

 

Your pictures of DoG make clear that it's your photoshopping rather than the Duchess that's problemmatic.  What appears to be the far rail isn't - it's just an arty effect of some sort the purpose of which is quite unclear.

 

Aesthetics are not the only grounds on which the Duke fails to live up to the standard set by earlier models - the poorly thought out chassis design is something of a nightmare to rebuild to the point where it will run reliably and smoothly.  Hornby have lost access to the toolmakers who served them well over the last ten or so years, and whoever was responsible for signing off the DoG design had little if any grasp of function.  The Duchess is let down by far less, and the issues are manly the result of poor quality control (as with the recent Great Snipe release).

 

Value is a subjective notion.  I don't mind in the slightest paying rather more for models that are well made and reasonably accurate if it means that skilled workers are being properly rewarded for their efforts.  Those who hark back to the prices of the original Hornby Dublo models by way of comparison would do well to remember that Frank Hornby's company consistently lost money as soon as the postwar boom of the late 50s forced workers' wages up.

 

The recent demand for consumer electronics means that there is a high demand for skilled labour around the world; at the moment Hornby are looking to square the circle by simplifying assembly, and cutting retail margins while they're about it.  It's a short-term fix that depends on chronic under-supply to maintain prices, and the Duke is glorious testament to how wrong Hornby's current policy is.

[locoholic]

It's time to close this thread! There has been quite a flurry of new Hornby releases recently, so the answer to "Where are the Hornby models?" is "In the shops".

[Cooped]

I have 5 Duchess locos and all have narrower wheel back to backs than any of my other locos (bogies, drivers and tender wheels), although none so bad as to let the bogies fall between the rails. This isn't a problem and not noticeable on Hornby track or Peco, but as I'm in the US I've tended to use Atlas where it is a problem as the gap on points between rail and frog is narrower. It produces a guarunteed derail. Relatively easily fixable although the drivers are a little hard to move on their axles.

[MikeParkin65]

I have 5 Duchess locos and all have narrower wheel back to backs than any of my other locos (bogies, drivers and tender wheels), although none so bad as to let the bogies fall between the rails. This isn't a problem and not noticeable on Hornby track or Peco, but as I'm in the US I've tended to use Atlas where it is a problem as the gap on points between rail and frog is narrower. It produces a guarunteed derail. Relatively easily fixable although the drivers are a little hard to move on their axles.

My most recent Duchess is 46243 and like you say, the back to backs are narrow and this loco derailed through Peco code 75 and 100 points. I reset the front bogie and the tender using a DCC concepts back to back gauge and this cured the problem without the need to regauge the driving wheels. If only the Dapol Western was so easy!

[Nimbus]

The recent demand for consumer electronics means that there is a high demand for skilled labour around the world; at the moment Hornby are looking to square the circle 

 

... and they've succeeded magnificently with their recent driving axle bearings!

 

The Nim.

[Cooped]

I had no problem with my Peco points, but then I only have 1 set and it was bought specifically to see if I would have no derailments as I was having with the Atlas ones. Code 83, so different to you the also.

[Fenway Park]

Hornby are not alone with their Chinese supply problems, Micro Ace who are the third major Japanese N Gauge manufacturer have also had supply problems as their factory in China went on strike recently owing to labour unrest and this is in a Communist Society!!!!! 

  

Frankly we have all been suckered into the Chinese way of not doing things: Airbus are having to be very careful with their components from PRC. The Chinese division is known as Scarebus and not without foundation. 

 

A batch of Humbrol paints apparently arrived in the UK and were lacking the drying agent!!!

 

Hornby should have been more suspect when Sanda Kan went to Kader, as the Asian way is to make your competitor suffer in an competitive market if you see a weakness. 

The future for the Hornby group is interesting as they have in Airfix the 5th major player in plastic kits. At present, they are ahead of the 2014 schedule and the new releases are highly successful and selling well, witness the 1/48 Gloster Javelin, the WW2 Bomber Support Vehicles and the Lancaster in various versions. If Airfix which is made in India is ahead of their targets then the profits should be available for the group, but the new ex Ladbrokes person is noted for being an asset stripper so watch this space!

[robmcg]

So much for thinking my Hornby models of the Duke and Duchess and were of good quality and fair, even good, value.  I have been well and truly told that even though mine run well, straiht from the box,  and look fantastic they are , apparently, no good at all, and my computer-enhancing of my pictures is of no clear value. They are inspired by my enjoyment of the prototypes.  I had thought that my first pictures showing almost no computer work would give an idea of the basic model. But no.

 

What a seriously depressing reaction!

 

I would love to know if there is anyone out there who thinks these recent Hornby models are ok, but I cannot image they would want to post here, let alone offer  ordinary or computer-edited pics of their models. Mine run well and look great. The Duchess needs the wire harness to be wired or taped up to the engine-tender drawbar to clear pointwork.  Other than that, top marks Hornby and I will be posting more pics in due course, it's a pleasure to do these pics, usually.

 

Rob

[robmcg]

Your pictures of DoG make clear that it's your photoshopping rather than the Duchess that's problemmatic.  What appears to be the far rail isn't - it's just an arty effect of some sort the purpose of which is quite unclear.

 

Aesthetics are not the only grounds on which the Duke fails to live up to the standard set by earlier models - the poorly thought out chassis design is something of a nightmare to rebuild to the point where it will run reliably and smoothly.  ,

 

....

 

and the Duke is glorious testament to how wrong Hornby's current policy is.

 

 

The pic is created from three pics to keep focus from front to rear, that is the purpose, 'stacking' except I just took 3 pics with auto-focus and blended them. There is a join where the far side of the front bogie does not perfectly align with the near side  sorry.

 

I repeat the Dukes I have, or have access to, all run well and look good. The Duchess runs exceptionally well on my short test track.

 

I leave it to others to judge how common it may be to have to check back-to-backs on different styles of track, pointwork, an so on. My brother has an extensive layout in code 100 set track and has no problems.

 

I find the negativity of this and several other threads in Hornby quite depressing. I know Simon Kohler used to say 'I don't bother with it' (parts of RMweb I think, but he may have been referring to the negativity alone)

 

I must ask what you seriously expect for 100 pounds, of which little more than 20 could be gross margin, at best.

 

Rob

 

p.s. how many times does it need to be said here that Hornby have not had access to many of their tools for a long time and labour costs have gone up greatly?

[Cooped]

I for one love your pictures Rob and apart from the wheel back to backs I also love the Duchess models, hence having 5! I haven't gone for Duchess of Abercorn as I already have the Duchess of Montrose with sound from a couple of years back. I also haven't gone for DoG, but from what I can see it's a great value model.

[robmcg]

I for one love your pictures Rob and apart from the wheel back to backs I also love the Duchess models, hence having 5! I haven't gone for Duchess of Abercorn as I already have the Duchess of Montrose with sound from a couple of years back. I also haven't gone for DoG, but from what I can see it's a great value model.

 

Here is another view of the TMC version which was 103 pounds  (less VAT for me) edit; it isn't zone-focussed but front and reat have been sharpened a bit.  otherwise it's 'real', folks.

 

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby are not alone with their Chinese supply problems, Micro Ace who are the third major Japanese N Gauge manufacturer have also had supply problems as their factory in China went on strike recently owing to labour unrest and this is in a Communist Society!!!!! 

  

*

but the new ex Ladbrokes person is noted for being an asset stripper so watch this space!

Just because China is run by something calling itself a Communist Party, doesn't mean it adheres to much that Karl Marx would recognise as Communism any more!

 

*

If Hornby did get asset stripped, it could get snapped up by a new entrant to the market but, even if swallowed by one of their competitors, I don't think they'd do so just to remove it from the market. It might take a while for the dust to settle, but at least some former products would re-appear.

 

Look how much ex-Airfix/Mainline stuff is still around thirty-odd years after their demise.

 

John

[robmcg]

here is the picture above with various edited embellishments, some quite easy to do, like steps and hoses perhaps, some not so easy like sanding gear, handrails, but looking to my eyes very nice. Some of these could come from a Britannia.  Of course I doubt the Duke gets quite as dusty as this in real life?

 

 

 

[Roy P]

 

If Hornby did get asset stripped, it could get snapped up by a new entrant to the market but, even if swallowed by one of their competitors, I don't think they'd do so just to remove it from the market. It might take a while for the dust to settle, but at least some former products would re-appear.

 

Look how much ex-Airfix/Mainline stuff is still around thirty-odd years after their demise.

 

John

Hornby's biggest asset is their brand name and how many times has that been stripped down the years? At this point in time we are discussing the company that started making train sets for Marks and Spencer in the fifties who were taken over by Tri-ang which then "merged" with Hornby (Meccano) and the result has changed hands several times since. 

As long as there is a market for train sets in the U.K. there will be a "Hornby" of some sort. Whether in the long term the company bearing the name will cater for enthusiast market remains to be seen but as this probably sees a more stable demand that the fickle toy sector, someone will be able to exploit the talent that currently lives in Margate. I suspect that deep down while we all may have some affection for the Hornby name, if the best of their products were to appear under a different banner (Hornby - Dublo - Tri-ang - Rovex - Bassett Lowke - Redboxmodels) we won't care to much after - as you say - the dust has settled.

 

RP

[robmcg]

Back to my favourite locomotive de jour.... 'rods down' this time.  Memories of an old Duchess of Atholl model.

 

[robmcg]

and this is pre-war steam engineering per excellence...

 

as well as being a new Hornby model.