GWR terminology: "Van" - what does it mean?

[The Great Bear]

I have a (silly, quite possibly) question regarding GWR train formations and nomenclature.

 

What is a "Van"? I think I know "Van Third" is what anyone else would call a brake third etc. But what about a plan "Van"?

 

What's prompted this is list of train formations in GWRJ 85 pg 270-273. Sometimes this refers to "Bk Van" so I guess that's a full brake, but some entries are just "Van". It lists out Siphons separately so what are these "Vans"? Some are listed as non corridor hence I am guessing these would be four wheeled, passenger rated vans? Some "Vans" aren't listed as being non-corridor so what might they be? For some trains this could also be the odd item of LMS or LNE stock in addition to or alternating with GW stuff.

 

Sorry, the question isn't very well worded, but hopefully you can make sense of it and give me some help in decyphering this info! (Which is very useful in the context of my layout )

 

Thanks

 

Jon

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

The 'notes' in the coach programmes might have varied a little over the years but generally ina gangwayed train the term 'van' meant a vehicle with gangways unless there was a '+' symbol next to it.

[The Great Bear]

The 'notes' in the coach programmes might have varied a little over the years but generally ina gangwayed train the term 'van' meant a vehicle with gangways unless there was a '+' symbol next to it.

Ok, so what kind of vehicles might they be if not called up as brake vans or siphons? Are they these just not called up as such?

[chrisf]

Oh goodie, another can of worms!  Jon, welcome to the home for the bewildered that is GWR marshalling instructions.

 

Let us deal with 'Van Third' first.  It used to be a different animal to 'Brake Third' but for many years was effectively the same thing.  It's just that the GWR and the WR after it were a bit slow to move with the times,  You will search in vain for Van First and Van Composite!

 

As for other vans, it seems to me that where a Siphon G, H or J was specified then that is what was to be provided, even more so if a Brake Van was stipulated since the guard had to ride in something and wield the brake if necessary.  Often the numbers of the van/s to be used were laid down in the instructions.  A prime example of this was the Postal from Paddington to Penzance [10.20 pm off Paddington in summer 1961] which comprised six postal vans and five Siphons G with the numbers of the vans from which the trains were to be formed listed in the instructions.  Newspaper trains were another example, There it would be ordained that the allocated Siphons were to be steam heated and fitted with trestle tables so that the staff could sort the papers in something vaguely approaching comfort.  Most if not all of the vans dedicated to a specific working would have carried appropriate lettering, known as branding but not as in Rawhide.

 

If nothing more specific was written down then the van could have been anything and belonged to anybody.  My favourite example is the one that ran between Paddington and Kingsbridge every night.in the 9.50 pm Paddington to Penzance (Plymouth on Fridays).  This was supposed to be a Large Van.  Photographs show that it was anything but - a Southern PMV or a pigeon van from the LNER, both being four wheeled vehicles, were just as likely to appear.  The same train conveyed Fruits D for Kingswear and Paignton but the contents would have not resembled fruit in the least.

 

In the forlorn hope that this helps ...

 

Chris

[corneliuslundie]

I have a feeling, though i do not have my books to hand at present, that originally, ie 19th century, a van was a vehicle for carrying passengers' luggage. A van third at that time would have had compartments plus a luggage compartment but no space for the guard and no guard's brake.Also in the early days there may have been coaches with space for the guard but no space for passengers' luggage.  In fact in the early days sometimes the guard's brake was in a passenger compartment! Later such coaches went out of fashion so a van third effectively became the same as a brake third. The GWR had a lot of 40 ft luggage vans, but I do can't remember whether they all had facilities for a guard. If they didn't they would have counted as vans. (see the K series of vehicles)..

 

Of course the meaning of the goods vehicle van is much clearer, except of course when it came to specialised loads!

[The Great Bear]

 

In the forlorn hope that this helps ...

 

Thanks for the detailed reply, Chris. That the "van" could be almost anything is in practise for me is actually a very useful response...

 

What a "news van" was was going to be my next question, but you've answered that too    

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Chris. That the "van" could be almost anything is in practise for me is actually a very useful response...

 

What a "news van" was was going to be my next question, but you've answered that too    

Ah, but news vans came in two varieties - first of all there were 'packing vans' which as their name implies were used for packing parcels of newspapers and then there were simply vans.  The latter in earlier times also came in two varieties, viz - gangwayed bogie vans, from which the packers could obtain papers to pack, and 'vans' which were simply used to transport bundles of papers which didn't need to be packed and they could be anything along the lines identified by Chris above.

 

For those to whom all of this is double-dutch newspapers were loaded to trains with bundles labelled in two different ways.  Some bundles would be labelled direct to the receiving distributor and would go in the van at Paddington and be taken out of it at destination where the consignee distributor would collect them and take them to his premises to break down for retailers or would deliver direct to large retail branches such as WHS.  The other way of addressing them was simply to the packing firm who would open the bundles on the train and then make up the contents into individual bundles for various retail premises.  So for example WHS or Surridge Dawson packers on the train would be making up a bundle for, say, a village Post Office/shop in the wilds of Somerset by taking X number of copies of each of  the Fleet Street dailies ordered by  such a shop and repacking them into a package or packages for that outlet.

[Miss Prism]

Wot, no palatial Wild Swan special Didcot van?

[Adrian Wintle]

I'm pretty sure 'van' meant a vehicle with substantial luggage capacity (for the carriage of passengers' luggage or parcels). A brake van was called out when there was a need to accomodate a guard (i.e. if the train was to split or be formed from multiple sections), while a van didn't have to have (but quite often may have had) accomodation for a guard. Van thirds tended to have large luggage compartments, where brake composites tended to have quite small ones (and so couldn't accomodate much luggage). The GWR didn't tend to have many van/brake firsts or compos with a substantial luggage compartment. Siphons were called out where their ventilated nature was necessary.

 

Adrian

Edited September 23, 2013 by Adrian Wintle

[wagonman]

My understanding is that a 'Van Third' would have had a guard's compartment and a generous luggage area. A 'Brake Third' would have had a guard's compartment too, but little or no space for luggage – T27 I think was a case in point having a central guard's compartment flanked on both sides by a pair of compartments (it was a 4/6 wheel vehicle). There were a number of other diagrams with a similar arrangement – many of them later had two of the compartments ripped out and turned into luggage space whereupon they would have become 'Van Thirds' as far as carriage working books were concerned. 

[MarkAustin]

For passenger trains, a plain Van is what other (lesser) lines called a full brake: i.e. a passenger vehicle with no passenger accommodation. The GWR only used Brake (e.g. Brake Third) for a vehicle with a brake compartment but no luggage accommodation. Van was never used, except for some specialised vehicle, when it was always qualified, e.g. Meat Van, for freight stock: they used the term Covered Goods Wagon for what we would more normally call a Goods Van. As had been said if any other passenger rated vehicle was used in a train it was specified by its name (e.g. Ocean Mails Van) or telegraphic code (e.g. Siphon G).

[Adrian Wintle]

For passenger trains, a plain Van is what other (lesser) lines called a full brake: i.e. a passenger vehicle with no passenger accommodation. The GWR only used Brake (e.g. Brake Third) for a vehicle with a brake compartment but no luggage accommodation. Van was never used, except for some specialised vehicle, when it was always qualified, e.g. Meat Van, for freight stock: they used the term Covered Goods Wagon for what we would more normally call a Goods Van. As had been said if any other passenger rated vehicle was used in a train it was specified by its name (e.g. Ocean Mails Van) or telegraphic code (e.g. Siphon G).

 

However, in the passenger train makeup there was a distinction between 'van' and 'bk van'.

 

From the 1938 schedule:

 

1.25am Crewe Cardiff 5.12am Tuesdays to Saturdays

Siphon G SX Manchester Ex      

Van Third   Birkenhead      

Bk Compo   Birkenhead      

PO   Crewe   801/2/3

LMS Van   Crewe    

LMS Bk Van   Manchester    

LMS Bk Van   Manchester    

LMS Bk Van WO Liverpool    

LMS Third   Liverpool    

LMS Compo   Liverpool    

LMS Bk Van   Liverpool    

 

 

4.7pm Crewe Bristol 8.6pm To Plymouth FSO from Jun 3, 1938

Bk Compo   Birkenhead Plymouth    

Dining Car   Shrewsbury Bristol    

Bk Compo   Glasgow Plymouth

LMS Van Third   Liverpool Plymouth

LMS Compo   Liverpool Plymouth

LMS Van Third A Liverpool Plymouth    

Compo   Manchester Paignton    

Van Third   Manchester Paignton    

Compo   Manchester Cardiff    

Van Third A Manchester Cardiff    

Bk Compo   Manchester Cardiff

LMS Bk Van   Manchester Cardiff    

Bk Compo   Birkenhead Cardiff    

Siphon G SX Brierley Hill Cardiff    

Van   Dudley Cardiff 2801/2

 

 

7.30am Paddington Plymouth 1.48pm    

Siphon G MX Swindon Swansea

Third MO Paddington Swindon

70' Van Third B Paddington Plymouth

Third   Paddington Plymouth

Dining Car   Paddington Plymouth

Compo   Paddington Plymouth

Van Third A Paddington Plymouth

Third MSO Paddington Plymouth

Bk Van   Paddington Reading

Bk Compo   Wolverh'pton Kingswear

Van Third   Bristol Kingswear

Compo   Bristol Kingswear

 

 

Adrian

 

Edit for format

Edited September 24, 2013 by Adrian Wintle

[Adrian Wintle]

A couple of other formations (as they would have been seen at Dawlish) from the same timetable:

 

Down 5:30 am ex Paddington

            Third (MO)

            Siphon (as req)

2x        Brake Van (MX)

            Siphon G (MX)

            Stores Van No.2 (TO)

            70’ Van Third (leading)

            70’ Third

            70’ Compo

            70’ Van Third (trailing)

            Van

            Siphon G (MX)

            News Brake Van (MX)

 

Down 12:50 am ex Paddington:

3x        Siphon G

            70’ Parcels Van (MX)/60’x9’ Brake Van (MO)

            70’ News Brake Van

            60’x9’ Brake Van

            Brake Van No.75

 

A non-corridor van might be one of the 40' Full Brakes that had the guard's lookouts removed. I don't believe any o the above are indicated as non-corridor, though. 

 

Adrian

Edited September 24, 2013 by Adrian Wintle

[Miss Prism]

A non-corridor van might be one of the 40' Full Brakes that had the guard's lookouts removed. I don't believe any o the above are indicated as non-corridor, though.

 

The K16s were 40' brakes and I believe they retained their corridor fittings after removal of guard's duckets, so would not be classified as 'non-corridor'. Whilst the K14/15/16 PBVs were still technically 'brakes', there wasn't much point in inhabiting them for that purpose, because there wasn't much point in trying to look out of an 8'-wide vehicle if everything else was 9'.

 

I think 'Van' would therefore encompass the 40' PBVs, and there were certainly enough of them around until the mid-1930s. The OP's question does seem dependent on era though, and thus Chris F's 'could be just about anything' (as long as it was vac-fitted and passenger-rated) is very plausible.

[The Great Bear]

The K16s were 40' brakes and I believe they retained their corridor fittings after removal of guard's duckets, so would not be classified as 'non-corridor'. Whilst the K14/15/16 PBVs were still technically 'brakes', there wasn't much point in inhabiting them for that purpose, because there wasn't much point in trying to look out of an 8'-wide vehicle if everything else was 9'.

 

I think 'Van' would therefore encompass the 40' PBVs, and there were certainly enough of them around until the mid-1930s. The OP's question does seem dependent on era though, and thus Chris F's 'could be just about anything' (as long as it was vac-fitted and passenger-rated) is very plausible.

 

Interesting: one of my "random" e-bay purchases was a K15. Did think I'd wasted my money that it was too old to be used as a brake so good news there

 

The GWRJ articles I was referring to in my OP were, I think, 1937/8.

 

(FWIW the intention is my layout is set post war GW. So, I am taking the ingredients of a 1947 passenger timetable, 1948 BR working timetable, the train formations from thirties, both the GWRJ article and also the info in the Xpress book "Train Formations and Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway", then will add a pinch of salt, stir well, then reduce...)

[Adrian Wintle]

 

Interesting: one of my "random" e-bay purchases was a K15. Did think I'd wasted my money that it was too old to be used as a brake so good news there

 

The GWRJ articles I was referring to in my OP were, I think, 1937/8.

 

(FWIW the intention is my layout is set post war GW. So, I am taking the ingredients of a 1947 passenger timetable, 1948 BR working timetable, the train formations from thirties, both the GWRJ article and also the info in the Xpress book "Train Formations and Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway", then will add a pinch of salt, stir well, then reduce...)

 

The other one to find if you can is "Great Western Railway Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains: September 27th, 1937, to July 3rd, 1938" reprinted by Dragonwheel Books in 2006 (ISBN 1 905014 53 8 ). It is like the train formations part of the Xpress book only covering a period about 10 years more recent. It isn't as pretty, being Cerlox bound, but it is very useful.

 

Adrian

Edited September 24, 2013 by Adrian Wintle

[chrisf]

 (FWIW the intention is my layout is set post war GW. So, I am taking the ingredients of a 1947 passenger timetable, 1948 BR working timetable, the train formations from thirties, both the GWRJ article and also the info in the Xpress book "Train Formations and Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway", then will add a pinch of salt, stir well, then reduce...)

 

One other useful source of reference for that period is the Paddington station working booklet for summer 1948.  It is accessible via Robert Carroll's BR coaching stock Yahoo group - Robert is 'robertcwp' on here - and shows the booked formations of all passenger and parcels trains departing from Paddington..

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

Another possibly helpful source of reference is the 1947 GWR Service Timetable and maybe even the winter 1946 -47 'Programme of Working of Coaches and Vans in Through Trains' but my digging information out of them really depends on having the time available to do so .

[The Great Bear]

Another possibly helpful source of reference is the 1947 GWR Service Timetable and maybe even the winter 1946 -47 'Programme of Working of Coaches and Vans in Through Trains' but my digging information out of them really depends on having the time available to do so .

 

Mike, that would be very much appreciated and interesting to see how things changed post war. I've read that workings of locos at least got simpler. As I've said there's going to be limited artistic license in any timetable, though I want to keep things plausible. I am, no doubt, going to have to greatly rationalise things to get something achievable - a constraint as it stands being using RTR stock plus the odd ebay purchase like some PC models toplights plus to acquire a full day's worth of locos would be too ambitious. In due course I do want to have a go at building my own stock but am not hopeful of the outcome. In any case, had better crack on with the layout, timetable can be a nice armchair modelling job for mid winter.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, that would be very much appreciated and interesting to see how things changed post war. I've read that workings of locos at least got simpler. As I've said there's going to be limited artistic license in any timetable, though I want to keep things plausible. I am, no doubt, going to have to greatly rationalise things to get something achievable - a constraint as it stands being using RTR stock plus the odd ebay purchase like some PC models toplights plus to acquire a full day's worth of locos would be too ambitious. In due course I do want to have a go at building my own stock but am not hopeful of the outcome. In any case, had better crack on with the layout, timetable can be a nice armchair modelling job for mid winter.

Jon, from a brief look when checking out the Woodstock freight workings the other week I suspect you don't need to worry too much about a shortage of stock as that would match the general shortage of timetabled trains in the area, the service looked very sparse.  But don't forget to get a nice shiny apple green B1 - I wonder when they went onto the Swindon turn, could well have been something far more interesting in your period of course

[Coach bogie]

 

Interesting: one of my "random" e-bay purchases was a K15. Did think I'd wasted my money that it was too old to be used as a brake so good news there

 

The GWRJ articles I was referring to in my OP were, I think, 1937/8.

 

(FWIW the intention is my layout is set post war GW. So, I am taking the ingredients of a 1947 passenger timetable, 1948 BR working timetable, the train formations from thirties, both the GWRJ article and also the info in the Xpress book "Train Formations and Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway", then will add a pinch of salt, stir well, then reduce...)

 

Certainly the GWR stock register refers to some of the 40ft Dean vans as PASSENGER BRAKE VAN and some even had roof boards stating the same. The diagrams K14 & 15, to my knowldge did not have gangways. I cannot find my notes on the K16. Certainly K14 were built with plain fully panelled ends & K15/6 had ends that would allow fitting of gangways at a later date. Several vans were rebuilt with gangways, some had the lookouts removed, and american bogies substituted on some to various diagrams including K26/9/30 + others

 

In general, the copy of the GWR register pages I have refer to a van third - third class coach with lockable guards compartment and separate luggage area. Brake composite refers to a first and third (and second on older diagrams) with a lockable guards compartment with small luggage accomodation. A K38 GA diagram is labelled 'BRAKE VAN'

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Great Bear]

Jon, from a brief look when checking out the Woodstock freight workings the other week I suspect you don't need to worry too much about a shortage of stock as that would match the general shortage of timetabled trains in the area, the service looked very sparse.  But don't forget to get a nice shiny apple green B1 - I wonder when they went onto the Swindon turn, could well have been something far more interesting in your period of course

 

Couldn't resist the Hornby one a while back, Mike, so black it will be, renumbered to 1086, Leicester GC methinks (think turn might have been Sheffield loco that did the run to Swindon, but having a black painted one limits the choice) But yes, am hoping Bachmann do the GNR Atlantic too to do the working in the opposite direction. Also motive power for some of the cross-country workings might be where pinch of salt comes in, as couldn't resist a B17 - though need to change the tender. One of the books I have has a photo of Helmingham Hall heading a train of LNER stock north out of Oxford post war, at odds with other info saying locos changed at Banbury. So I'll go with the photo... 

[Miss Prism]

Mike - the K14 and K15 did not have gangways fitted, although the K15 had 'psuedo' corridor panelling on the ends, so in theory could have been fitted with gangways at a later date. The K16s were fitted with gangways from new.
 

In general, the copy of the GWR register pages I have refer to a van third - third class coach with lockable guards compartment and separate luggage area. Brake composite refers to a first and third (and second on older diagrams) with a lockable guards compartment with small luggage accomodation.

 

Ah ha! You may have stumbled on the key to the OP's question, namely that, in later years, brake vehicles without a lockable guards compartment would qualify only as a 'Van'.

[The Stationmaster]

Just to add a bit of spice I've had a quick look in 1941 and 1946/47 programmes just taking examples from the first page of each, thus including news trains - and the following vehicle types (excluding wholly passenger carrying  are shown in various trains :-

 

In 1941

Siphon G, Brake Van, Brake Van, Brake Compo, Brake Van No.27 or 82 - all in the12.15 a.m. Padd - Penzance News.

 

60ft Brake Van, News Van, Siphon G, Brake Van - all in the2.15 a.m. Paddington - Bristol

 

Van, Brake Van, Siphon, Van Third, Open Brake Van, News Brake Van - all in the 5.30 a.m. Paddington - Penzance

 

In 1946/7

Siphon G, Brake Van, 60ft Brake Van -  in the 12.15 a.m. Paddington - Penzance (News and Sleeping cars)

 

Brake Compo, 60ft Brake Van, Brake Van, 8 wheel Brake Van - in the (now) 2.30 a.m. Paddington - Bristol

 

Van Third, Open Brake Van, Van (Pcls Post), Van - in the 5.30 a.m. Paddington - Plymouth

 

The above summaries of vehicles which are not entirely passenger carrying - they are not complete formations - include vehicles detached or attached enroute thus the '8 wheel Brake Van' was for Gloucester detached at Swindon although obviously all the other Brake Vans in the train were also 8 wheelers.

[Adrian Wintle]

Just to add a bit to the formations I posted above, the 60'x9' Brake Van would be a K40 (presumably the 60' Brake Vans in Mike's list are the same). Vans 2801/2 were the two six-wheel refrigerated GWR Palethorpes vans (i.e. they were definitely non-corridor, despite not being indicates as such in the working).

 

Adrian

Edited September 26, 2013 by Adrian Wintle