The Great Bear Posted September 26, 2013 Author Share Posted September 26, 2013 Does the suffix G, H signify any difference in the use of Siphons? It's not just version development is it, because some with same letter (G?) come in inside and outside framed flavours do they not? Again question focuses on understanding difference between the various RTR models, of which I have (all?) three flavours. Does same apply to Fruit x too? More than happy to be directed to a link explaining this! Thanks Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Siphon Gs came in two main flavours, inside and outside framed, but they were effectively the same size and design otherwise. Their main distinction from other forms of Siphon was that they were gangwayed (except in later BR days). A Siphon H had no gangways and had a higher roofline. Effectively the letter indicates a different design of vehicle within the broad category of the name (Siphon, Fruit, etc.) Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted August 11, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) However, in the passenger train makeup there was a distinction between 'van' and 'bk van'. From the 1938 schedule: 1.25am Crewe Cardiff 5.12am Tuesdays to Saturdays Siphon G SX Manchester Ex Van Third Birkenhead Bk Compo Birkenhead PO Crewe 801/2/3 LMS Van Crewe LMS Bk Van Manchester LMS Bk Van Manchester LMS Bk Van WO Liverpool LMS Third Liverpool LMS Compo Liverpool LMS Bk Van Liverpool 4.7pm Crewe Bristol 8.6pm To Plymouth FSO from Jun 3, 1938 Bk Compo Birkenhead Plymouth Dining Car Shrewsbury Bristol Bk Compo Glasgow Plymouth LMS Van Third Liverpool Plymouth LMS Compo Liverpool Plymouth LMS Van Third A Liverpool Plymouth Compo Manchester Paignton Van Third Manchester Paignton Compo Manchester Cardiff Van Third A Manchester Cardiff Bk Compo Manchester Cardiff LMS Bk Van Manchester Cardiff Bk Compo Birkenhead Cardiff Siphon G SX Brierley Hill Cardiff Van Dudley Cardiff 2801/2 7.30am Paddington Plymouth 1.48pm Siphon G MX Swindon Swansea Third MO Paddington Swindon 70' Van Third B Paddington Plymouth Third Paddington Plymouth Dining Car Paddington Plymouth Compo Paddington Plymouth Van Third A Paddington Plymouth Third MSO Paddington Plymouth Bk Van Paddington Reading Bk Compo Wolverh'pton Kingswear Van Third Bristol Kingswear Compo Bristol Kingswear Adrian Edit for format That would be quite a colourful arrangement. Edited August 11, 2016 by OnTheBranchline Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2017 Here are a couple of pictures of 'Van Thirds'. The first was one which was unusually attached to a 'B-Set' running into Bodmin Road. I've manipulated it a bit (can't remember how!). It shows an intriguing conversion, identified by Chris (F) as a Toplight stores van 3rd. What is puzzling is the odd placements of the door top ventilators and it appears to have some additional window panelling at the train end. The second pair of guard's doors have the windows panelled over. It is assumed that it may have been 'gutted' for full use of the space within. This one came to me courtesy of Chris which is of a similar (but slightly different!) type. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Credit where it is due: the original transparency of the colour pic above was taken by the late Alan Jarvis and has been in at least one book. His collection is now in the care of the Stephenson Locomotive Society. The black and white pic shows stores van DW150005 which was converted in January 1955 from toplight D47 brake third 2375. If it was running to programme the photo was taken on a Thursday. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Here are a couple of pictures of 'Van Thirds'. The first was one which was unusually attached to a 'B-Set' running into Bodmin Road. I've manipulated it a bit (can't remember how!). It shows an intriguing conversion, identified by Chris (F) as a Toplight stores van 3rd. What is puzzling is the odd placements of the door top ventilators and it appears to have some additional window panelling at the train end. The second pair of guard's doors have the windows panelled over. It is assumed that it may have been 'gutted' for full use of the space within. Toplight 4a.jpgToplight a.jpg This one came to me courtesy of Chris which is of a similar (but slightly different!) type. Toplight Van 3rd.jpg The unusual van has been covered before in another thread. It was the subject of an article by David Geen in the GWSG house magazine, the 'Pannier'. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thanks Chris for the correct accreditation and the information which now l can 'put to bed', Yes indeed Mike it was me that put the original question. lt would be good to see the article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) I have a (silly, quite possibly) question regarding GWR train formations and nomenclature. What is a "Van"? I think I know "Van Third" is what anyone else would call a brake third etc. But what about a plan "Van"? What's prompted this is list of train formations in GWRJ 85 pg 270-273. Sometimes this refers to "Bk Van" so I guess that's a full brake, but some entries are just "Van". It lists out Siphons separately so what are these "Vans"? Some are listed as non corridor hence I am guessing these would be four wheeled, passenger rated vans? Some "Vans" aren't listed as being non-corridor so what might they be? For some trains this could also be the odd item of LMS or LNE stock in addition to or alternating with GW stuff. Sorry, the question isn't very well worded, but hopefully you can make sense of it and give me some help in decyphering this info! (Which is very useful in the context of my layout ) Thanks Jon As a general rule thumb the GWR referred to coaching stock in the following terms, though I confidently expect to have left something out. A Van Third is a coach with half its length given over to passenger accommodation and the other half to luggage space and the guard's compartment. A Brake Third (or Brake Composite) consists mainly of passenger accommodation plus a guard's compartment and (often, but not always) some limited space for parcels etc. In passenger train publications "Van" generally implies a gangwayed vehicle (e.g. a Siphon G) and "Brake Van" a gangwayed Full Brake unless otherwise stated OR the publication is so old as to predate the introduction of such vehicles. In publications relating to goods traffic, "Van" can be taken to indicate a normal (common user) short wheelbase vehicle unless something more exotic is specified. Passenger rated non-gangwayed vans were not always four-wheelers, Siphons F, H and Monsters, provided with end-loading doors, all fall into this category. Hope this helps simplify matters. John Edited February 21, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) I haven't really looked at 'vans' in detail before having a wander through this thread. Having done so, could someone enlighten me about the first two carriages in this train. The first seems to have a chunk of van this end. The second seems to have only three doors from the visible hinges, although there might be another at the far end. Edited February 21, 2017 by phil_sutters 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I haven't really looked at 'vans' in detail before having a wander through this thread. Having done so, could someone enlighten me about the first two carriages in this train. The first seems to have a chunk of van this end. The second seems to have only three doors from the visible hinges, although there might be another at the far end. GWR 2 6 2T 4143 Highbridge 23 4 1962.jpg Front coach looks like a D121 low waist band stock built for the Bristolian. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Pure speculation - The first vehicle is a Van third The second is the corridor side of third/first/composite whatever. Please feel free to enlighten me. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The second coach is a C77 corridor third. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted August 2, 2019 Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 A few very belated follow up questions: How is a non-gangwayed train (eg the new Hornby suburban set) named, how different from gangwayed? In GWR speak there is no such thing as brake third? How are full brakes called up van or brake van? Abbreviations equivalent of BCK etc didn't exist in GWR days, that came with nationalisation (from LNER practise?)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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