Modern Image - is the phrase outdated?

[Happy Hippo]

Post privatisation? .....................I thought that was what the Govt have just done with Royal Mail.

 

With all this kerfuffle about what is just a phrase, we have now managed over 5 pages of this thread, to create 'the critisizer', a sub species of that vile creature, the 'rivet counter'. 

 

Congratulations chaps: We should be proud!

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Glorious NSE]

What's wrong with "post-privatisation"?

 

Might not be too bad now, but it'll be just as meaningless as "modern image" in 20 years time (assuming no fundamental change in the way we do things over here...)

[newbryford]

What's wrong with "post-privatisation"?

 

That particular era now spans nearly 20 years and is very much still ongoing and likely to last a few more years yet.

 

20 years is a long time in railway development. Think what happened in 20 years from say 1965-1985. The total eradication of steam and many classes of diesel. Green to Blue to Intercity and Railfreight and on the verge of Sectorisation triple grey.

Another 20 year span sees us from Nationalisation up to the end of steam - again a huge step change in rolling stock and the general railway environment.

 

 

 

An idle (OT) thought - how many layouts (particularly steam era) that have modelled a particular period, have a 20 year span?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Pacific231G]

I'm actually not sure. Cyril Freezer coined the term "Modern Image" in 1963 soon after publication of the Beeching Report. That is now almost exactly as far in the past as the Grouping was then so that would make it very outdated  On the other hand I can (just) remember the "traditional" railway of branch lines, local goods yards, unfitted goods trains and of course steam that was largely swept away to leave more or less the railway we now have. Even twenty years after the major changes of privatisation, I'd say that the railway now still has more in common with the railway of say the early 1970s than that did with the railways at the start of the 1960s.

 

This is why I find the MOROP epochs more useful. They're not perfect as the divisions can be a bit arbitrary and would be harder to apply to Britain as nationalisation came much later here while the abandonment of  local goods yards came much earlier as did the final abandonment of steam. The epochs overlap but I know that Ep III is post war steam and the start of the transition from steam to diesel,  Ep IV is the final twilight of steam and the change to UIC coach and wagon markings and they're mainly useful for avoiding gross anachronisms whewn buying from manufacturers. Maybe though it's easier just to say what period your layout is set as in early 1960s, late 1980s etc.

[Clive Mortimore]

I'm actually not sure. Cyril Freezer coined the term "Modern Image" in 1963 soon after publication of the Beeching Report.

Hi David

 

I had a conversation with Cyril Freezer regarding the term "Modern Image". He told me that at an editorial meeting Sidney Pritchard and him were discussing the then changes that were happening to the railway system and the series of articles they were going to do to illustrate these changes and they wanted a name for this series. He said he could not recall who first said "Modern Image" but by the end of the meeting it was the title they were going to use.

[t-b-g]

Maybe "Modern Image" is a description of the scene being viewed rather than a period of time. Is it a model of a railway that has been substantially modernised (infrastructure rather than locos and stock - they constantly changed)? If so, it portrays the modern image.

 

When it was modernised is irrelevant and there are still a few places you could model today that wouldn't class as "modern image" to me.

 

Tony

[Pacific231G]

Hi David

 

I had a conversation with Cyril Freezer regarding the term "Modern Image". He told me that at an editorial meeting Sidney Pritchard and him were discussing the then changes that were happening to the railway system and the series of articles they were going to do to illustrate these changes and they wanted a name for this series. He said he could not recall who first said "Modern Image" but by the end of the meeting it was the title they were going to use.

 

Thanks Clive, that's very interesting. I'm rather inclined to see "Modern Image" as referring to a specific period in British Railway history rather than whatever is contemporary with where we happen to be in time. It's perhaps rather like "Modernism"  in the arts which doesn't usually mean what's modern now but a particular movement that ran from roughly the late nineteenth to the first third of the twentieth century. Similarly, though it also doesn't have a definite end,  I'd probably see "Modern Image" as running from Beeching (rather than the modernisation) to the end of the BR blue era.

 

BTW I've recently acquired some very early Railway Modellers and at the start of 1952, a couple of months after Cyril Freezer had moved with the magazine to Peco from Ian Allan in London, he talked about his own modelling  activities. It turns out that he was an EM gauge modeller who'd moved to it from 00. At the time of his move he was building an EM layout based on Ashburton. That would certainly explain his friendship with Peter Denny who was also an MRC member but, so far as I  know, he  never referred to it in print again.  Since Peco was mostly selling products for 00,  I wonder if Sydney Pritchard would have frowned on his editor championing EM.  It does though give the lie to the idea of CJF as a proponent of "averageness"  in modelling.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Pacific231G

[Dave Searle]

An idle (OT) thought - how many layouts (particularly steam era) that have modelled a particular period, have a 20 year span?

Ian White's layout "East Grinstead Town" http://www.early-lbscr.co.uk/grinsted/grinsted.htm runs a chronological sequence from 1866 to 1908 (so over 40 years).

 

And we refer to anything after that as "Modern Image" 

 

[Edited to add Smiley]

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

 

Edited November 21, 2013 by Dave Searle

[298]

And we refer to anything after that as "Modern Image"

 

Cheers,

Dave

That's the problem that D&E modellers are trying to convey, the term only refers to a finite era and really only then when there is an apparent comparison (such as a rebuilt WCML station just after electrification and with an electric blue roster but a steam loco too). Instead it is misused to refer to anything more "modern" than the users own interest. Edited November 21, 2013 by 298

[The Stationmaster]

What's wrong with "post-privatisation"?

 

I wonder just how many different liveries some operators have had since privytisation?

[coachmann]

People who werent around at the time or in nappies won't have a full understanding of what modern image meant and still means. After just spending great sums of public money on new steam locomotives, carriages, wagons, marshalling yards and infrastructure, the Government of the day and state-owned BR were suddenly at great pains to belittle the steam railway of the "past". The diesel and all that was to come with it was the future image and as such was trumpetted as the 'Modern Image' of British Railways. Steam was hailed as dirty, and to strengthen this image, locos were left uncleaned. Unfortunately for the image makers, the new diesels were just as dirty(!) partly because of unrest among rail workers who feared for their jobs.

 

Nowhere was the Modern Image more marked in the very early 1960s than on the AC electified line from Manchester to Crewe and beyond where blue electrics ran through partly rebuilt stations sporting white station nameboards. The Western Region was also at the forefront of the 'Modern Image' with its brandnew Hydraulic locomotives sporting a kaleidoscope of colours while the once proud products of Collett and Hawksworth were again deliberately made to look like the Old fashioned Image, filthy and bereft of name and number plates.

 

So in a nutshell, the Diesel and Electric era was and still remains the 'Modern Image' of BR. It's not just me talking.

Edited November 21, 2013 by coachmann

[Glorious NSE]

People who werent around at the time or in nappies won't have a full understanding of what modern image meant and still means. After just spending great sums of public money on new steam locomotives, carriages, wagons, marshalling yards and infrastructure, the Government of the day and state-owned BR were suddenly at great pains to belittle the steam railway of the "past". The diesel and all that was to come with it was the future image and as such was trumpetted as the 'Modern Image' of British Railways. Steam was hailed as dirty, and to strengthen this image, locos were left uncleaned. Unfortunately for the image makers, the new diesels were just as dirty(!) partly because of unrest among rail workers who feared for their jobs.

 

Nowhere was the Modern Image more marked in the very early 1960s than on the AC electified line from Manchester to Crewe and beyond where blue electrics ran through partly rebuilt stations sporting white station nameboards. The Western Region was also at the forefront of the 'Modern Image' with its brandnew Hydraulic locomotives sporting a kaleidoscope of colours while the once proud products of Collett and Hawksworth were again deliberately made to look like the Old fashioned Image, filthy and bereft of name and number plates.

 

So in a nutshell, the Diesel and Electric era was and still remains the 'Modern Image' of BR. It's not just me talking.

 

Hmmm, no, the period you describe I think has a pretty good case for the name - but you then say "The D&E era" is "Modern Image" - which means something entirely different...we're still in "The D&E Era" but it looks nothing like what you describe.

[Talltim]

Maybe "Modern Image" is a description of the scene being viewed rather than a period of time. Is it a model of a railway that has been substantially modernised (infrastructure rather than locos and stock - they constantly changed)? If so, it portrays the modern image.

 

When it was modernised is irrelevant and there are still a few places you could model today that wouldn't class as "modern image" to me.

 

Tony

So the post re-gauging GWR is modern image? The railways have been continuously modernising since the very beginning.

[coachmann]

Hmmm, no, the period you describe I think has a pretty good case for the name - but you then say "The D&E era" is "Modern Image" - which means something entirely different...we're still in "The D&E Era" but it looks nothing like what you describe.

The Diesel and Electric era is the modern image after replacing 150 years of the old steam era. I havent seen much change on our rail system since the steam railway was demolished and replaced with bus shelters and minimal trackage. Updated bus shelters, diesel and electric continue to reign supreme. If I modelled say 1970 and decided to model today, I wouldnt need to alter the infratructure, just the trains.

 

I realise folk living alongside one of the busy newly electrified routes would see things differently, but that is merely an extention of AC. I could post photos of the North Wales route from 1971 to present day and the only change is tree growth!

Edited November 21, 2013 by coachmann

[Revolution Mike]

The Diesel and Electric era is the modern image after replacing 150 years of the old steam era. I havent seen much change on our rail system since the steam railway was demolished and replaced with bus shelters and minimal trackage. Updated bus shelters, diesel and electric continue to reign supreme. If I modelled say 1970 and decided to model today, I wouldnt need to alter the infratructure, just the trains.

 

Apart from the massive changes in livery (green to blue to sectorisation to privatisation etc), types of traction (shift from loco hauled to units for passengers), privatisation etc.  Wholesale modernising of track and infrastructure.

 

"Modern image" alone is fairly meaningless when you think it covers potentially 50+ years, just like saying steam era isn't particularly helpful in narrowing down someone's interests.

 

Cheers, Mike

[coachmann]

Apart from the massive changes in livery (green to blue to sectorisation to privatisation etc), types of traction (shift from loco hauled to units for passengers), privatisation etc.  Wholesale modernising of track and infrastructure.

 

"Modern image" alone is fairly meaningless when you think it covers potentially 50+ years, just like saying steam era isn't particularly helpful in narrowing down someone's interests.

 

Cheers, Mike

But we've been through all this in the previous pages. I agree completely that Steam era isnt at all helpful without a rider such as early 1950s and so-forth. Modern Image also need a simple rider to indicate the year(s).

 

I'll bet everyone understands "I do Modern Image; the mid 1980s". Or "I do the Steam Era, circa the mid 1930s LMS"

Edited November 21, 2013 by coachmann

[Pete 75C]

But we've been through all this in the previous pages. I agree completely that Steam era isnt at all helpful without a rider such as early 1950s and so-forth. Modern Image also need a simple rider to indicate the year(s).

 

I'll bet everyone understands "I do Modern Image; the mid 1980s". Or "I do the Steam Era, circa the mid 1930s LMS"

 

Change for the sake of change, no more... no less... I have to agree. I stated a few pages ago that the phrases "Steam" and "Modern Image" have served me perfectly well over the years and I'll wager I'm not the only one. Adding the simple caveat "circa: xxxx" simply refines that. What could be simpler? Feel free to reach for the little circular button with the grey cross, I'm quite used to it!

Edited November 21, 2013 by Pete_S

[Talltim]

coachmann, on 21 Nov 2013 - 11:08, said:

 

The Diesel and Electric era is the modern image after replacing 150 years of the old steam era. I havent seen much change on our rail system since the steam railway was demolished and replaced with bus shelters and minimal trackage. Updated bus shelters, diesel and electric continue to reign supreme. If I modelled say 1970 and decided to model today, I wouldnt need to alter the infratructure, just the trains.

 

I realise folk living alongside one of the busy newly electrified routes would see things differently, but that is merely an extention of AC. I could post photos of the North Wales route from 1971 to present day and the only change is tree growth!

You added the last line between me reading and pushing the quote button, but I think what I was going to say still stands.

I think you are being disingenuous

Take my hometown station, Harpenden. In the 1970s it was a 4 track station, with a brick built station building. Both those things are still true, but pretty much everything else has changed. it is electrified (not newly, although that depends on how you view new!) The signal box has gone. The station building has been reduced in size It has had two replacement footbridges, and the platform shelters have been replaced. The platforms have been extended to suit 12 car trains (and I think they have had another rebuilding before that). Large car parks have been built on both sides of the station. I'm not sure how much goods yard was still present in the 1970s, but a tamper siding has been removed in the last ten years. Semaphore signals have been replaced by 4 aspect colour lights.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/harpenden_central/harpenden(alan_young11.1977)2.jpg

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/16/79/2167981_2449bde2.jpg

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/polopoly_fs/footbridge_1_1_1991934!image/4072760141.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/4072760141.jpg

 

 

 

The other thing to consider is your north Wales example. Yes, not much may have changed since the 1970s, but how much changed in the 40 years before that? (I'm aware that goods yards may have disapeared, which weaken my argument slightly ) Some places change fast, some slowly. You can't use the slow places as an example of all them.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Talltim

[Revolution Mike]

But we've been through all this in the previous pages. I agree completely that Steam era isnt at all helpful without a rider such as early 1950s and so-forth. Modern Image also need a simple rider to indicate the year(s).

 

I'll bet everyone understands "I do Modern Image; the mid 1980s". Or "I do the Steam Era, circa the mid 1930s LMS"

 

Of course they would understand if you add the rider of year, but that isn't what you had posted (nor do I agree that little has changed in 50 years). 

[MattWallace]

So, it looks like it's about time I changed the name of my layout again...
 
To be honest (and I realise that all these things are purely personal) "Modern Image" to me should be anything that happened in the last 5 - 10 years.  I say this as someone who was born in the early 80's, had no idea until he read this thread that there were historical connotations and is about as far from a "kettle-watching rivet counter" (did that offend enough people?!! ) as you can get.
 
I love model railways, I like trains and I've really enjoyed coming back to the hobby in the past two years and especially discovering the communities such as this one, however for me "Modern Image" does not include Blue or Green diesels - they have their own eras ("Blue Diesel" and "Green Diesel" respectively), nor does it include "Triple Grey" (In my mind that belonds to... yup, you've guessed it - the "Triple Grey" era), it is everything that gave us the various TOCs, from Arriva Trains Wales to Virgin via GBRf, DRS and Freightliner to name but a few.
 
When I look to buy a model railway magazine (and I don't have any particular loyalty), I'll look for magazines that state "Modern Image Weathering" or similar.  I then get quite disappointed when I open it to check it's worth buying when I find out that we're weathering a 1980's box van and not a 2003 KFA or similar.  The "Scratch Build A Modern Image <insert building type here>" are also often 1960's-style pubs/signal boxes/etc and I've often found that "modern image" vehicles appear to include Ford Anglias and Bedford TKs!
 
Hattons use the following Eras which seem to be a better fit in my opinion:

• UK rail era 1. Pioneering (1804 - 1874)
• UK rail era 3. The Big Four - LMS, GWR, LNER & SR (1923 - 1947)
• UK rail era 4. BR steam. Early Crest (1948 - 1956)
• UK rail era 5. BR steam. Late Crest (1957 - 1966)
• UK rail era 6. BR Corporate Blue. Pre -TOPS (1967 - 1971)
• UK rail era 7. BR Corporate Blue. Post -TOPS (1972 - 1982)
• UK rail era 8. BR Sectorisation (1983 - 1994)
• UK rail era 9. Post-privatisation (1995 - 2011)

as there's a slot for just about everything - for example, Marshfield "Modern Image" layout would become "Marshfield Era 9 Layout". 

 

Maybe the hobby should move in this direction as well?
 
Matt

[Glorious NSE]

The Diesel and Electric era is the modern image after replacing 150 years of the old steam era. I havent seen much change on our rail system since the steam railway was demolished and replaced with bus shelters and minimal trackage. Updated bus shelters, diesel and electric continue to reign supreme. If I modelled say 1970 and decided to model today, I wouldnt need to alter the infratructure, just the trains.

 

 

I realise folk living alongside one of the busy newly electrified routes would see things differently, but that is merely an extention of AC. I could post photos of the North Wales route from 1971 to present day and the only change is tree growth!

 

Sorry I disagree. Modern Image in it's original context is not about minimal trackage and bus shelters, in many ways it's operationally still the same railway as was there before. If you look at (for example) the WCML electrification you mentioned yes you had new station buildings (in many places) and yes you had shiny new loco's - but mostly still moving the same vacuum and unfitted wagons that the steam loco's had been moving before the electrics came in, and mostly on track layouts (including lots of yards, siding space and even branch lines) that reflected what had been before much more closely than they do the present day.

 

The 1970s/80s cost cutting driven rationalisations mostly came later than that, and even then there are plenty of places where the railway of 1970 and the railway of today are entirely unrecognisable... (in either direction, at one extreme there are places where it's gone completely since that point, or because it's been developed massively from that point)

[Talltim]

 

Hattons use the following Eras which seem to be a better fit in my opinion:

• UK rail era 1. Pioneering (1804 - 1874)
• UK rail era 3. The Big Four - LMS, GWR, LNER & SR (1923 - 1947)
• UK rail era 4. BR steam. Early Crest (1948 - 1956)
• UK rail era 5. BR steam. Late Crest (1957 - 1966)
• UK rail era 6. BR Corporate Blue. Pre -TOPS (1967 - 1971)
• UK rail era 7. BR Corporate Blue. Post -TOPS (1972 - 1982)
• UK rail era 8. BR Sectorisation (1983 - 1994)
• UK rail era 9. Post-privatisation (1995 - 2011)

as there's a slot for just about everything - for example, Marshfield "Modern Image" layout would become "Marshfield Era 9 Layout". 

 

Maybe the hobby should move in this direction as well?

 

Matt

Those eras seems to be more about the liveries of what is available RTR (which is fair enough for a retailer) than about changes on the real railway. The first 150ish years of rail have 3 eras. The 45 years of BR have 5.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Talltim

[MattWallace]

Those eras seems to be more about the liveries of what is available RTR (which is fair enough for a retailer) than about changes on the real railway. The first 120ish years of rail have 3 eras. The 45 years of BR have 5.

Sure, but I feel that it gives a better guide to when the layout is based than just "Modern Era"....

[APOLLO]

Modern Image, to me at least, will allways bring back memories of sleek new blue electric locos alongside scruffy dirty Black 5's & 8's at places like Stockport & Crewe.

 

I suppose it really means "The current scene". We are all entitled to our own opinion of the meaning - why not leave it at that ?

 

Brit 15 (once an Edgeley Loco)

[Talltim]

Sure, but I feel that it gives a better guide to when the layout is based than just "Modern Era"....

Agreed, for the term Modern Image.

It does less to replace the 'Steam Era' tag

Edited November 21, 2013 by Talltim