RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2016 Are you a 100% about that Simon? The track plan shows a crossover at the eastern end of the platforms that would allow acces from 13 & 14 as well, unless it can't be signalled? The signals at the London end of 13 &14 have JIs which read to the diveunder - it diverges from the Up Relief some way east of the scissors crossover. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 The problem is that at some places you can't touch in or our because either there are no barriers or the barriers which do exist (e,g, the north side at Reading) are left open at certain times to reduce staffing costs. the same will no doubt apply at Twyford which isn't continuously staffed and in any case has direct entrance in several places from the public highway to the three platforms normally used by booked passenger trains. Crossrail might well decide to staff their stations over the entire train service period which would allow barriers to be used but I can't see GWR (or successor) prepared to accept the extra staffing costs for no apparent revenue benefit. ???? Oyster touch pads work whether the barriers are open or closed. Even now, some of the stations on the GOBLIN are without barriers at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 ???? Oyster touch pads work whether the barriers are open or closed. Even now, some of the stations on the GOBLIN are without barriers at all. Exactly, Oyster is totally separate from ticket barriers - the two can exist in isolation or be combined as necessary. If the barriers are left open at Reading the staff at Paddington will be able to check that fact and issue a penalty fare, while if you have an Oyster card and swiped out without having swiped in you get stung for the full daily cap amount - so its not as though its in the interests of Oyster users to not swipe in at Reading / Taplow if they are travelling to London. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 The signals at the London end of 13 &14 have JIs which read to the dive-under - it diverges from the Up Relief some way east of the scissors crossover. Fair enough, I've only ever seen / heard of trains coming off Platform 15 to go down the dive under. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Currently, I'd say the majority of SWT stations in the West and South West of London don't have barriers, yet all have Oysters/Contactless readers if within the "Pay as you Go" TfL Zones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) ???? Oyster touch pads work whether the barriers are open or closed. Even now, some of the stations on the GOBLIN are without barriers at all. Exactly, Oyster is totally separate from ticket barriers - the two can exist in isolation or be combined as necessary. If the barriers are left open at Reading the staff at Paddington will be able to check that fact and issue a penalty fare, while if you have an Oyster card and swiped out without having swiped in you get stung for the full daily cap amount - so its not as though its in the interests of Oyster users to not swipe in at Reading / Taplow if they are travelling to London. That assumes that people will use them (if they are there). Examples 1. No barriers at, say, Twyford and those at Reading are open - nobody bothers to pay and certainly won't bother to tap in if the gate is already open = free trip (as it already is at certain times of day). 2. A passenger off one of the branch lines joins a Crossrail train at either Twyford, Maidenhead or Slough; he/she will not have tapped in or otherwise been monitored except possibly by an on-train conductor if that train happens to have one. He/she then alights at any station within the LUL Zone which happens to have barriers and has to tap their Oyster card to open the barrier - the system hasn't got a clue where they came from so what does it do? And even if said passenger then has to tell a member of staff where they came from they don't have to give an accurate answer and can as easily say Windsor as Shiplake (and if they give the name of a number of branch stations there is no penalty fare involved). 3. Most people commuting from Reading, and probably Twyford/off the Henley branch will have a GWR season ticket to Paddington although in most cases it will also cover Zones 1 and/or 2. If, for all sorts of reasons, a passenger (especially from Twyford where it is most likely to happen) joins a Crossrail train instead of a GWR train and then taps out at a central area station they will not have tapped in but will have a valid ticket for their journey so the system will have to be able to cater for that. 4. I realise my Oystercard is different (it is not a chargeable one) but on a number of occasions on the UndergrounD I have tapped out without having tapped in with no problems as there are some stations where you can get in without tapping-in - it will be interesting to see what happens if I travel to a Crossrail operated station on the GWML as I doubt my GWR barrier pass will work although I will have perfectly valid travel documents. Thus overall once you get past Langley on the GW side there are a number of complications to be solved and it is difficult to see how some of them will be easily solved (Crossrail have already stated that Oystercard validity will not extend to the branches although that could possibly change as long as it protects the franchise's revenue). But even then it will not be possible to put equipment at all stations as there is little or no cover at a number of them and in any case I doubt folk will care about stopping or walking the length of a platform just to tap a machine when they're rushing home. Edited June 2, 2016 by The Stationmaster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaneggleston Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Yes Martyn - Heathrow Connect ceases once Crossrail starts running to LHR IIRC Heathrow Connect will cease, with Crossrail effectively providing the same service. What's the plan for the Class 360/2s? I assume they are compatible with the 360/1s and does Greater Anglia want them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 If there's no barrier at Twyford and they're open at Reading then I don't see how that's any different from today with paper tickets. As for people on the branches, they'll have to do what happens at Stratford where oyster readers are on the platforms, and if you want to transfer from an AGA service to any of the TfL services available the you have to tap in if you're on oyster. If you have an oyster season ticket which covers your journey there's no need to do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 What's the plan for the Class 360/2s? I assume they are compatible with the 360/1s and does Greater Anglia want them? Haven't heard of one yet - but they are good quality modern units and will no doubt find a home somewhere readily enough. London Midland or Greater Anglia are the obvious places as existing users of 20m AC Desiro's (i'm leaving out TPX as theirs are due to be replaced) - but neither of them uses 5 car trains at present - you could drop a trailer out, but that seems like a bit of a waste. SWT does use 5 car trains, and has broadly similar 450s, but they would then need DC gear retrofitting... Or alternatively 5 sets strikes me as a nice fleet size for an electrification project somewhere outside the South East? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) That assumes that people will use them (if they are there). Examples 1. No barriers at, say, Twyford and those at Reading are open - nobody bothers to pay and certainly won't bother to tap in if the gate is already open = free trip (as it already is at certain times of day). 2. A passenger off one of the branch lines joins a Crossrail train at either Twyford, Maidenhead or Slough; he/she will not have tapped in or otherwise been monitored except possibly by an on-train conductor if that train happens to have one. He/she then alights at any station within the LUL Zone which happens to have barriers and has to tap their Oyster card to open the barrier - the system hasn't got a clue where they came from so what does it do? And even if said passenger then has to tell a member of staff where they came from they don't have to give an accurate answer and can as easily say Windsor as Shiplake (and if they give the name of a number of branch stations there is no penalty fare involved). 3. Most people commuting from Reading, and probably Twyford/off the Henley branch will have a GWR season ticket to Paddington although in most cases it will also cover Zones 1 and/or 2. If, for all sorts of reasons, a passenger (especially from Twyford where it is most likely to happen) joins a Crossrail train instead of a GWR train and then taps out at a central area station they will not have tapped in but will have a valid ticket for their journey so the system will have to be able to cater for that. 4. I realise my Oystercard is different (it is not a chargeable one) but on a number of occasions on the UndergrounD I have tapped out without having tapped in with no problems as there are some stations where you can get in without tapping-in - it will be interesting to see what happens if I travel to a Crossrail operated station on the GWML as I doubt my GWR barrier pass will work although I will have perfectly valid travel documents. Thus overall once you get past Langley on the GW side there are a number of complications to be solved and it is difficult to see how some of them will be easily solved (Crossrail have already stated that Oystercard validity will not extend to the branches although that could possibly change as long as it protects the franchise's revenue). But even then it will not be possible to put equipment at all stations as there is little or no cover at a number of them and in any case I doubt folk will care about stopping or walking the length of a platform just to tap a machine when they're rushing home. The onus is clearly on the passenger to "touch in" (see here https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/touching-in-and-out) and as such I have no doubt TfL will provide Oyster readers on the platforms (as at Stratford) for this to happen if people are joining Crossrail services from elsewhere (i.e. at Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead & Slough). Passengers will pretty soon get the hang of it - unless they really want to pay the full daily cap. https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/incomplete-journeys Edited June 2, 2016 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 Haven't heard of one yet - but they are good quality modern units and will no doubt find a home somewhere readily enough. London Midland or Greater Anglia are the obvious places as existing users of 20m AC Desiro's (i'm leaving out TPX as theirs are due to be replaced) - but neither of them uses 5 car trains at present - you could drop a trailer out, but that seems like a bit of a waste. That hasn't stopped Scotrail taking on 321 units and shortening them from 4 to 3 cars so they match the existing 320 fleet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 London Midland or Greater Anglia are the obvious places as existing users of 20m AC Desiro's (i'm leaving out TPX as theirs are due to be replaced) - but neither of them uses 5 car trains at present - you could drop a trailer out, but that seems like a bit of a waste. SWT does use 5 car trains, and has broadly similar 450s, but they would then need DC gear retrofitting... Or drop a trailer out to make a few 450s up to 5 car sets then move the resulting 4 car 360s to Greater Anglia... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2016 The onus is clearly on the passenger to "touch in" (see here https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/touching-in-and-out) and as such I have no doubt TfL will provide Oyster readers on the platforms (as at Stratford) for this to happen if people are joining Crossrail services from elsewhere (i.e. at Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead & Slough). Passengers will pretty soon get the hang of it - unless they really want to pay the full daily cap. https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/incomplete-journeys So how do they touch-in with an Oyster extension which only covers Zones 1/2? (and that's assuming they actually have time to do it if trains are running late). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Haven't heard of one yet - but they are good quality modern units and will no doubt find a home somewhere readily enough Not all that easy I'm afraid, the HC 360's aren't fitted with AWS or TPWS (neither are the class 332's), in fact there is very little room to fit such systems to the 360's, So it would take a fair bit of work to fit the systems before they could be used anywhere else. Its all because the safety case for both Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect is based on the use of Great Western Automatic Train Protection (ATP), the Heathrow branch is only fitted with ATP (and ETCS Level 2 come Christmas) and seen as all the lines from Stockley to Paddington are fitted with ATP, then this means that AWS / TPWS were not fitted to the Heathrow stock. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 So how do they touch-in with an Oyster extension which only covers Zones 1/2? (and that's assuming they actually have time to do it if trains are running late). The same way they do at Stratford when changing from GA services. Yes, it will no doubt cause protests from regular commuters, particularly when services are running late - but the GWML is hardly a unique example. With Oyster now being valid to Gatwick Airport, Hertford East and Grays its not as if the extension to Reading is going to introduce problems that haven't manifested themselves before. This website may be helpful when discussing Oyster on NR http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/mixing-travelcard-and-payg/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 Not all that easy I'm afraid, the HC 360's aren't fitted with AWS or TPWS (neither are the class 332's), in fact there is very little room to fit such systems to the 360's, So it would take a fair bit of work to fit the systems before they could be used anywhere else. Its all because the safety case for both Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect is based on the use of Great Western Automatic Train Protection (ATP), the Heathrow branch is only fitted with ATP (and ETCS Level 2 come Christmas) and seen as all the lines from Stockley to Paddington are fitted with ATP, then this means that AWS / TPWS were not fitted to the Heathrow stock. Simon Yes but if the 360s were removed from the GWML there would be no need to keep the ATP gear - which could be removed and standard AWS / TPWS fitted. While the 360s used by HC may be a bespoke order, the basic train platform is not and as such its quite likely that the ATP stuff was simply inserted into the places that AWS / TPWS is fitted on the units ordered for elsewhere. Similarly as the HEX units are the same basic design as the 333s used in Yorkshire, were HEX ever to get rid of them removing ATP and installing AWS / TPWS shouldn't be that impossible to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 The same way they do at Stratford when changing from GA services. Yes, it will no doubt cause protests from regular commuters, particularly when services are running late - but the GWML is hardly a unique example. With Oyster now being valid to Gatwick Airport, Hertford East and Grays its not as if the extension to Reading is going to introduce problems that haven't manifested themselves before. This website may be helpful when discussing Oyster on NR http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/mixing-travelcard-and-payg/ Other such services are available at Finsbury Park, Barking, West Ham, Upminster, Harrow & Wealdstone. And that's just a few tube changes with no barriers between the National Network and the TfL services. Include the overground and we could do this all day.The meetings about how to do that that at Maidenhead will have gone along the lines of "Same as Stratford, then?" Meeting closed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Typical arrangement at a small SWT station, with a couple of card readers and no barriers, for those unfamiliar with the system in London. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Yes but if the 360s were removed from the GWML there would be no need to keep the ATP gear - which could be removed and standard AWS / TPWS fitted. While the 360s used by HC may be a bespoke order, the basic train platform is not and as such its quite likely that the ATP stuff was simply inserted into the places that AWS / TPWS is fitted on the units ordered for elsewhere. Similarly as the HEX units are the same basic design as the 333s used in Yorkshire, were HEX ever to get rid of them removing ATP and installing AWS / TPWS shouldn't be that impossible to do. Certainly the ROSCO concerned is not likely to be turning round and saying that they can't be used anywhere else....nose, face etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Not all that easy I'm afraid, the HC 360's aren't fitted with AWS or TPWS (neither are the class 332's), in fact there is very little room to fit such systems to the 360's, So it would take a fair bit of work to fit the systems before they could be used anywhere else. Its all because the safety case for both Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect is based on the use of Great Western Automatic Train Protection (ATP), the Heathrow branch is only fitted with ATP (and ETCS Level 2 come Christmas) and seen as all the lines from Stockley to Paddington are fitted with ATP, then this means that AWS / TPWS were not fitted to the Heathrow stock. Simon That's a surprise, I thought the GW system went out of use in the 1970s Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 That's a surprise, I thought the GW system went out of use in the 1970s Regards No, it was just ramped down. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Richard E Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 Hopefully scenes like this won't be common on the GWML OHLE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) Hopefully scenes like this won't be common on the GWML OHLE. An excellent demonstration of why the GWML OHLE (NR installation) avoids the use of headspans - something the winging residents of Goring should take on board. Edited June 2, 2016 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted June 2, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2016 That's a surprise, I thought the GW system went out of use in the 1970s Regards The GW system was ATC. Automatic Train Control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 The GW system was ATC. Automatic Train Control. A problem with the alphabet soup. 'St Simon' refered to Great Western 'ATP'. If I can assume that Wiki is right ATP is a child of the 1990s BR not the Great Western in any of its incarnations. Actually I thought that ATP was obsolete and TPWS was the current EU flavour. Clearly I was wrong. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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