GWML Electification

[DY444]

Depends what you mean by 'start in earnest' because work has been done, to varying degrees, all over the place and it hasn't been done in a straightforward progressive manner hardly anywhere.  Thus in places around Reading some masts and booms have been in place for a couple of years because the work was done at the time of layout alterations but elsewhere at Reading masts have only been erected in the past few months on bits of brand new railway where they could have been erected before it was opened to traffic.  Some bases on the Oxford and Newbury sections have been there for a year or more while others have never been done at all but in the meanwhile down the B&H masts are being erected in odd numbers while there are still sections west of Challow where there are no masts, or even bases, on the 'core' route section to Swindon which is supposed to be part of the first operational stage for the South Wales route.  And it's just the same between Swindon and Wootton Bassett - some bases have been there for a year or more while other parts of that section have either gained them very recently or not at all.

 

The whole thing is like one great big dog's breakfast of a mess with bits here and bits there.  A few weeks back (and it might or might not have changed) between Wantage Road and Challow some bases were still incomplete., some masts were missing but the adjacent base not only had a mast but the boom as well and a few masts or so along there were other fittings in place - and then a base missing or not driven fully home.  And to make it worse a lot of the sites are on sections where either a pair of running lines can be closed just about every night and at weekends or on sections with reversible signalling where one line could easily be put under possession at night.

 

One explanation I've heard for the seemingly haphazard progress is that if they hit a problem they just leave it to be dealt with later and move on to the next item.  The theory I suppose being that it is better to complete 19 out of 20 tasks in a possesion than spend a lot of time on one that is a problem.  A cynic might say it also has the advantage of making the progress metrics look better although sorting out the tricky issues at the end could take ages. 

[Reorte]

Depends what you mean by 'start in earnest' because work has been done, to varying degrees, all over the place and it hasn't been done in a straightforward progressive manner hardly anywhere.  Thus in places around Reading some masts and booms have been in place for a couple of years because the work was done at the time of layout alterations but elsewhere at Reading masts have only been erected in the past few months on bits of brand new railway where they could have been erected before it was opened to traffic.  Some bases on the Oxford and Newbury sections have been there for a year or more while others have never been done at all but in the meanwhile down the B&H masts are being erected in odd numbers while there are still sections west of Challow where there are no masts, or even bases, on the 'core' route section to Swindon which is supposed to be part of the first operational stage for the South Wales route.  And it's just the same between Swindon and Wootton Bassett - some bases have been there for a year or more while other parts of that section have either gained them very recently or not at all.

 

The whole thing is like one great big dog's breakfast of a mess with bits here and bits there.  A few weeks back (and it might or might not have changed) between Wantage Road and Challow some bases were still incomplete., some masts were missing but the adjacent base not only had a mast but the boom as well and a few masts or so along there were other fittings in place - and then a base missing or not driven fully home.  And to make it worse a lot of the sites are on sections where either a pair of running lines can be closed just about every night and at weekends or on sections with reversible signalling where one line could easily be put under possession at night.

Sounds like my approach to my layout!

[The Stationmaster]

I'm thinking along the lines of actually fitting wires to the masts or cabling up substations etc.- perhaps 'point of no return' might be a better way of expressing it. While paused for very different reasons the Woodhead route got some mast erected in 1939 - only for them to sit unused for around a decade with no ill effects. Similarly track lowering or bridge reconstruction work is not wasted as such (it still has to be done) - even if the wires aren't there.

 

You will know better than me, but with reference to the above what is the status as regards the 'deferred' bits - i.e. is there anything which will suffer from sitting there unused while resources are focused on the core route?

 

Most of the substations seem to have been in place for the best part of a year, or more, and judging by various signs they were on an external contract and were presumably delivered on time - and in most cases long before any any ohle wires got anywhere near them.  Actually stringing the catenary would appear to be a relatively minor part of the overall process in terms of the time it takes compared with all the other work that has to precede it and in terms of the delivery it seems to be one of the least demanding stages as a handful of road/rail vehicles have been used to do a large chunk of it.

 

And unles it can be used elsewhere there's likely to be a lot of metalwork just left lying on the ground (and there's enough of that lying about on areas that are allegedly finished)

Edited November 9, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

One explanation I've heard for the seemingly haphazard progress is that if they hit a problem they just leave it to be dealt with later and move on to the next item.  The theory I suppose being that it is better to complete 19 out of 20 tasks in a possesion than spend a lot of time on one that is a problem.  A cynic might say it also has the advantage of making the progress metrics look better although sorting out the tricky issues at the end could take ages. 

That is an impression which comes over at times - along with another which is that having failed to do something when it should have been done they then forget all about it until they make an unfortunate discovery that it hasn't been done (the old signal gantry east of Pangbourne being an example - totally overlooked until it was seemingly gas-axed at the last minute before the wires went up).  A lot of what is goping on between Scours Lane and Didcot should have been done before the Main Lines were declared (occasionally) 'live'

[SwissRailPassion]

This throws an enormous spanner in the works for Northern and Scotrail. Not just for GWR. Franchising income profiles will now be at significant risk at four franchises. The benefits of the new long franchises are now in danger of unraveling.

Many have seen this coming for some time but it is worse than I feared. We will be paying Hitachi to supply expensive electric trains and we will pay even more to make them bi-mode and replace faster HSTs.

Northwest electrification will now be even later, and TPE electrification is in doubt, as the bi-mode option works against investing in wires. The ramifications of this will be felt in Exeter, Whitby, Blackpool, Coventry, Bridlington, Paignton and Leeds.

 

Perhaps Stadler or CAF could step in to plug the gap, or else it's the D Train?

[Legend]

On the face of it, Wootton Bassett Junction would appear to be the obvious (if anything in this project could be thus described!) place for the wires to end. However, one of the power supply points is at Thingley (linked to the Grid at Beanacre) so they'll need to link into that. The others are "in the CrossRail area" (as it was described to me), Didcot and "near Cardiff, further west than logical for this scheme, but ready for Swansea and The Valleys" (as the NR chap put it).

So we'll be at the traction changeover point, Jo. I was wondering about this yesterday. I know the Hitachi units are designed to change modes on the move, but will we actually see the Chippenham station stop used for that? Departing in the down direction there is a uphill gradient (not steep, this is Brunel's main line!), but that, plus the need to get away, perhaps suggests an electric start and keep taking the juice as far as its available. In the Up direction, Thingley is about the braking point, so drivers might prefer to continue on diesel power (albeit idling) and concentrate on the approach to Chippenham. 

They are continuing to pile drive ever closer to Chippenham, this week's work is described as "between Christian Malford and Langley Burrell" by NR and the signalling diagram last night showed them working on both lines somewhere in the vicinity of the River Avon bridge.

 

The obvious place for wires to end is Bristol Temple Meads ! Frankly anything else is a shambles. No matter how well the government ( surely now truly deserving the title DafT) dresses it up it's still a pig! Really looking outside this country , trying to encourage people to invest, and we can't even manage a relatively modest infrastructure project. Laughing Stock. Yes no doubt Notwork Rail's project management is bad, they are not exactly covering themselves with glory on EGIP either, but ultimately it reports to government, so they should be running it/monitoring it better.

 

Really dreadful

[96701]

Depends what you mean by 'start in earnest' because work has been done, to varying degrees, all over the place and it hasn't been done in a straightforward progressive manner hardly anywhere.  Thus in places around Reading some masts and booms have been in place for a couple of years because the work was done at the time of layout alterations but elsewhere at Reading masts have only been erected in the past few months on bits of brand new railway where they could have been erected before it was opened to traffic.  Some bases on the Oxford and Newbury sections have been there for a year or more while others have never been done at all but in the meanwhile down the B&H masts are being erected in odd numbers while there are still sections west of Challow where there are no masts, or even bases, on the 'core' route section to Swindon which is supposed to be part of the first operational stage for the South Wales route.  And it's just the same between Swindon and Wootton Bassett - some bases have been there for a year or more while other parts of that section have either gained them very recently or not at all.

 

The whole thing is like one great big dog's breakfast of a mess with bits here and bits there.  A few weeks back (and it might or might not have changed) between Wantage Road and Challow some bases were still incomplete., some masts were missing but the adjacent base not only had a mast but the boom as well and a few masts or so along there were other fittings in place - and then a base missing or not driven fully home.  And to make it worse a lot of the sites are on sections where either a pair of running lines can be closed just about every night and at weekends or on sections with reversible signalling where one line could easily be put under possession at night.

Mike,

I'm not sure why it matters that equipment is being installed piecemeal when what matters is that the installation is in place in time for the new service. If the possession plan allows for the installation of a number of piles between blocking points, does it really matter where they are?

 

I appreciate that there are frustrations that the overall plan is behind time and above estimate, but why do you keep re-iterating the point that it appears to be piecemeal? Who says the project has to begin at Airport Junction and finish at Cardiff? 

[96701]

The obvious place for wires to end is Bristol Temple Meads ! Frankly anything else is a shambles. No matter how well the government ( surely now truly deserving the title DafT) dresses it up it's still a pig! Really looking outside this country , trying to encourage people to invest, and we can't even manage a relatively modest infrastructure project. Laughing Stock. Yes no doubt Notwork Rail's project management is bad, they are not exactly covering themselves with glory on EGIP either, but ultimately it reports to government, so they should be running it/monitoring it better.

 

Really dreadful

How do you propose Network Rail should manage the work? You seem to know enough to lambast them, therefore let's read your solution.

[mow]

This is a link to the NAO report, rather than the re-cycled press release from BBC.

 

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Modernising-the-Great-Western-railway.pdf

 

Not sure that assertion about reality of non existent critical path planning is accurate prior to the work. But make of it what you will.

[96701]

This is a link to the NAO report, rather than the re-cycled press release from BBC.

 

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Modernising-the-Great-Western-railway.pdf

 

Not sure that assertion about reality of non existent critical path planning is accurate prior to the work. But make of it what you will.

Legend, please note the extract from the above report:

 

Together, these will cost £5.58 billion. Network Rail must also coordinate the works with other railway improvements and keep the tracks available for train services to run.

 

Is this a 'a relatively modest infrastructure project.'?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Bring back"The good old days" !!!

 

Diesel off at Crewe

 

 

And a 'lecky takes over !!

 

 

Twas interesting back in the late 60's !!

 

Brit15

Unfortunately we don't have many proper trains these days. When WCML was originally done it was easy to do a section and change traction type with the same carriages. 

This was fortunate for, as told to me by one of the senior engineers involved from the late 1950s, BR was able to start from Manchester and Liverpool. No Government would completely pull the plug before it got to London. If they had started at Euston the view in some parts of BR in the 1960s was that they would have been lucky to get north of Rugby. Just look how long it took ECML to get to Edinburgh after Kings Cross - Peterborough  Hitchin went live.

 

Edited for Hitchin break.

Edited November 10, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

Not just NR are useless at planning work in "Possessions"

 

On the main road near us United Utilities are renewing the connection from the main in the middle of the road to a property being refubished. 

Day 1 - Road dug up, new pipe connected to main, meter and stop tap installed in pavement.

Day 2 - No sign of anyone, trench still open.

Day 3 - Ditto

 

What will Day 4 bring? Probably no change and still suffering temporary traffic signals.

 

Unfortunately this sort of thing is the way of the privatised world, where a job formerly done in one session by one in-house team is now sub-contracted and sub-sub contracted with a delay between each step as the subcontactor is waiting to be told the previous step is complete before allocating anyone to the job.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

I'm not sure why it matters that equipment is being installed piecemeal when what matters is that the installation is in place in time for the new service. If the possession plan allows for the installation of a number of piles between blocking points, does it really matter where they are?

 

I appreciate that there are frustrations that the overall plan is behind time and above estimate, but why do you keep re-iterating the point that it appears to be piecemeal? Who says the project has to begin at Airport Junction and finish at Cardiff? 

 

It doesn't have to begin at Airrport Jcn and end at Cardif - it can be done in sensible sections although going from one end to another is obviously better better if it allows progressive introduction of new trains.  But they haven't even managed to get it right in a simple quadruple track section from Reading (effectively Scours Lane to Didcot (East End).  Because of the cock-eyed way in which stuff went in there were no successive sections at one stage which could be wired until various work - which had been done either side of those sections was finished.  And with only a couple of access points for road/rail vehicles which take time to get to site why go through the same few miles of railway doing the same job 4 times over when they could start at each access point doing one task, then come along behind that and do the next task and so on - it makes the bringing forward of materials a lot simpler for a kick-off.  That system seemed to work perfectly well on the WCML and the ECML and it seemed to be just as effective on Paddington - Airport Jcn.

 

Incidentally it is noticeable on the sections around Reading station that jobs are being done in a pretty logical sequence - first erect all the masts and booms then when that is complete and storage sites are clear bring in the fittings in sequence so they are simpler to organise. 

 

And why send a train to unload base piles into a section carrying just two of them and keep it in there for a whole shift doing nothing once those two piles have been unloaded - how much did that cost I wonder?

 

PS I see the report linked by MOW specifically mentions increased costs as a result of having to go back to 'fill in' gaps where masts have not been erected.

Edited November 10, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[Siberian Snooper]

It seems to be daft too only put in a project management team after the horse has left the stable.

[Reorte]

It seems to be daft too only put in a project management team after the horse has left the stable.

Not really. Although the scale is much smaller I've seen projects completely turned around that were failing rather badly before some decent project management people were brought in.

[billbedford]

This thread has begun to remind me of something attributed to Sir Richard Moon, Chairman of the LNWR. Unfortunately I can't find the actual quote but it was akin to:

 

"Where ever I go, I find people who will tell me how to run a railway"

[TheSignalEngineer]

This thread has begun to remind me of something attributed to Sir Richard Moon, Chairman of the LNWR. Unfortunately I can't find the actual quote but it was akin to:

 

"Where ever I go, I find people who will tell me how to run a railway"

Probably because some of those commenting have done it for 40-50 years. Things my Grandad taught me about sequencing jobs still hold true today in many instances and he learned his trade on the LNWR.

[Edwin_m]

Unfortunately we don't have many proper trains these days. When WCML was originally done it was easy to do a section and change traction type with the same carriages. 

This was fortunate for, as told to me by one of the senior engineers involved from the late 1950s, BR was able to start from Manchester and Liverpool. No Government would completely pull the plug before it got to London. If they had started at Euston the view in some parts of BR in the 1960s was that they would have been lucky to get north of Rugby. Just look how long it took ECML to get to Edinburgh after Kings Cross - Peterborough went live.

Wasn't Peterborough authorised in 1984 as an initial stage of the Edinburgh scheme?  I think the long wait was actually to get beyond Hitchin. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Edwin_m

[The Stationmaster]

Not really. Although the scale is much smaller I've seen projects completely turned around that were failing rather badly before some decent project management people were brought in.

 

I believe some of this one is being turned round as a consequence of a personnel change - the regrettable things is that it didn't happen at least a year ago (by which time senior management ought to have had a grip on just how badly the programme was being 'managed'.  

 

It horrifies me that it seems to have taken an NAO report to draw attention to the way possessions were not being adequately planned - that should be meat & drink for any Project Management team and the various engineering and operating disciplines which ought to have been involved (although I had heard that some of the possession planning was shambles - maybe somebody should have bought a Quail book and got hold of some signalling diagrams?). 

[D1059]

 

A few weeks back (and it might or might not have changed) between Wantage Road and Challow some bases were still incomplete., some masts were missing but the adjacent base not only had a mast but the boom as well and a few masts or so along there were other fittings in place - and then a base missing or not driven fully home.  And to make it worse a lot of the sites are on sections where either a pair of running lines can be closed just about every night and at weekends or on sections with reversible signalling where one line could easily be put under possession at night.

 

This was the view from Circourt bridge at Denchworth on 23rd October

 

Sunday Autumnal Sun 2 by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

 

 

The section through Steventon STILL hasn't even had the bridgework done yet (or the track lowered), yet alone had bases (I think), or masts installed

Edited November 10, 2016 by D1059

[TheSignalEngineer]

Wasn't Peterborough authorised in 1984 as an initial stage of the Edinburgh scheme?  I think the long wait was actually to get beyond Hitchin. 

Correct. I forgot about the Hitchin hiatus. IIRC Hitchin completed 1978, Peterborough not done until 1987. Shows up my point even more.

[The Stationmaster]

Correct. I forgot about the Hitchin hiatus. IIRC Hitchin completed 1978, Peterborough not done until 1987. Shows up my point even more.

 

Apart of course from the foundations for masts which carried on being done north of Hitchin until either the project ran out of money or somebody noticed.

 

But the point is well made and of course it;s very easy to forget that in BR days when a scheme was finished the project jobs vanished and those involved went elsewhere apart from some electrification engineers finding jobs on the maintenance side of what they had just helped install.  When the next scheme got approval then it was a case of recruiting (almost entirely internally back then) a team to carry it out although others had obviously been involved in producing estimates - in effect the only continuity was folk looking on the vacancy list or being cherry picked by those who knew them.

 

The difference with NR today is that large numbers of experienced engineering (and other disciplines) people were kicked out of the industry so newcomers had no one to learn from - but project management is something else and NR has had a lot of projects underway almost since it arose from the ashes of Railtrack.

[Legend]

How do you propose Network Rail should manage the work? You seem to know enough to lambast them, therefore let's read your solution.

Well the company I work for manages pretty well with qualified engineers and good project management. They bring in projects on budget, on time and have to account for any overspend ( which is not usual) . I don't think my company is any different from many other commercial companies . And I am talking about building factories across the world .

 

And compared to several other infrastructure projects around the world this is a relatively modest infrastructure project. But it's not what I think, it's what international investors think. Years of indecision over Heathrow. Even now runway decided, it's 10 years away if it ever gets built. Now we have patchy electrification to Bristol. Brunel must be spinning in his grave. We really are a laughing stock.

[phil-b259]

Well the company I work for manages pretty well with qualified engineers and good project management. They bring in projects on budget, on time and have to account for any overspend ( which is not usual) . I don't think my company is any different from many other commercial companies . And I am talking about building factories across the world .

 

And compared to several other infrastructure projects around the world this is a relatively modest infrastructure project. But it's not what I think, it's what international investors think. Years of indecision over Heathrow. Even now runway decided, it's 10 years away if it ever gets built. Now we have patchy electrification to Bristol. Brunel must be spinning in his grave. We really are a laughing stock.

 

The Heathrow thing is ENTIRELY down to Politics - Engineers have been working up plans and modifying them to suit the political winds prevailing at the time for decades.

 

Yes I fully expect the 3rd runway to take ages before it is actually finished (or should that be started) - but the bulk of that will be down to opponents launching legal challenge after legal challenge to get it stopped or delayed for as long as possible.

 

Back in Brunel's era - while there was a need to keep the landed gentry / Rich industrialists sweet it didn't really matter what ordinary folk thought - and they certainly couldn't mount repeated legal challenges. Across much of Europe this attitude is still prevalent (thanks to Napoleon) - if the state decides something is needed then the locals are quickly overruled with legal avenues to challenge the decision almost non existent.

[TheSignalEngineer]

.............

But the point is well made and of course it's very easy to forget that in BR days when a scheme was finished the project jobs vanished and those involved went elsewhere apart from some electrification engineers finding jobs on the maintenance side of what they had just helped install.  When the next scheme got approval then it was a case of recruiting (almost entirely internally back then) a team to carry it out although others had obviously been involved in producing estimates - in effect the only continuity was folk looking on the vacancy list or being cherry picked by those who knew them.

 

The difference with NR today is that large numbers of experienced engineering (and other disciplines) people were kicked out of the industry so newcomers had no one to learn from - but project management is something else and NR has had a lot of projects underway almost since it arose from the ashes of Railtrack.

In the 1960s we still had the old Crown Agents set-up, where a lot of BR engineers went to the Commonwealth countries to work on modernisation of their railways. This helped with continuity during slack periods at home amd maintained a good export market for our contractors.

 

A far a signaliing was concerned a lot of LMR engineering trainees like myself worked on the original West Coast and Weaver-Glasgow electrification. In between we were on Saltley, Derby and Trent which at the time were being billed as part of the proposed Swansea to York and St Pancras to Leeds electrification schemes.

Some stayed with the HQ Modernisation section whilst others went into local offices to cover maintenance and renewal activities and individual remodelling projects. Because of the way the department was structured in those days we got involved in everything from drawing the plans and diagrams, digging the holes, running the wires, testing and commissioning, supervising staff and managing projects, through to keeping the system performing in service. This structure for gaining, maintaining and passing on knowledge and skills was almost completely destroyed during the Sectorisation and Privatisation processes. A lot of records of why particular things had been done in the way they were also went into the skip at the same time.