Day Ranger and Rover Tickets

[Raffles]

...because they probably aren't needed any more. As I said earlier, ALL Rovers and Rangers will be listed in the system under their proper name.

[hairyhandedfool]

....It would seem to make sense (dangerous idea I know) that any ticket office would have an up to date copy of the NFM so checking on the availability of rovers & rangers shouldn't be an issue....

 

I wrote earlier.....

 

....they should have access to the Fares and Retail Publication Portal (FRPP/the Manual - which replaced the National Fares Manual (NFM) a couple of years back), which not only lists every ranger and rover, but also gives prices, maps (where applicable) and issuing instructions. Some require special ticket stock, but generally, any ticket office can issue them.

[Chris116]

I was pointing out that if anyone was thinking of purchasing the NFM CD then it may be an unneccesary purchase as the ticket issuing staff would have the details to hand in one form or another.

 

Getting back OT the problem isn't whether ticket staff have the information - its whether any member of Joe Public can access it so that we know what we are asking for. For instance I'm quite up to date with Rovers & Rangers that incorporate Northern Trains as it's my local area and Northern produce a leaflet giving details but if I want to head off into Wales then what is there available and what would I be asking a ticket office to sell me?

Thank you, that is the reason I have a problem with the lack of information for the PUBLIC.

 

Chris

[coly]

Chris116.

 

You are right there is not enough information for the public on these tickets.

 

I have talked to ATOC and although I got a good response from them it seems that these tickets are considered as tourist products are seasonal and in some cases a point to point ticket may be cheaper.

 

I am wondering about doing something about this but don't know if it would be worthwhile. What do you think? Would there be a need for information for the public about Rovers and Rangers?

 

Coly

[Gwiwer]

Would there be a need for information for the public about Rovers and Rangers?

 

How do they expect to sell any without it?

 

Ah wait - as per my earlier post there is a considerable commercial disincentive to sell these tickets because of the amount of revenue derived.

[Chris116]

Chris116.

 

You are right there is not enough information for the public on these tickets.

 

I have talked to ATOC and although I got a good response from them it seems that these tickets are considered as tourist products are seasonal and in some cases a point to point ticket may be cheaper.

 

I am wondering about doing something about this but don't know if it would be worthwhile. What do you think? Would there be a need for information for the public about Rovers and Rangers?

 

Coly

They probably are seasonal and a point to point ticket probably would be cheaper IF you are only doing a return journey. I use them for riding the rails and always get VERY good value out of them.

 

The important thing is that even if they are seasonal people are making plans at this time of year and if they can not get the information may decide to go by bus or not travel at all.

 

The National Rail Enquiries web site has the pages for the information and is a good place for the information to be but they need to make the pages work correctly with ALL the information available.

 

Chris

[coly]

How do they expect to sell any without it?

 

Ah wait - as per my earlier post there is a considerable commercial disincentive to sell these tickets because of the amount of revenue derived.

 

Yes could be that but my information is that it is sometimes ceaper to buy point to points.

 

I will dig some more but this will be =next week now.

 

Coly

[coly]

They probably are seasonal and a point to point ticket probably would be cheaper IF you are only doing a return journey. I use them for riding the rails and always get VERY good value out of them.

 

The important thing is that even if they are seasonal people are making plans at this time of year and if they can not get the information may decide to go by bus or not travel at all.

 

The National Rail Enquiries web site has the pages for the information and is a good place for the information to be but they need to make the pages work correctly with ALL the information available.

 

Chris

 

True, Chris.

 

Next time I am up with them I will talk to them.

 

Coly

[Gwiwer]

it is sometimes ceaper to buy point to points.

 

Of course it is. But the point of a Rover / Ranger is that it offers unlimited travel (sometimes only off-peak) rather than just a one-way or round-trip option.

[jonhall]

 

The National Rail Enquiries web site has the pages for the information and is a good place for the information to be but they need to make the pages work correctly with ALL the information available.

 

 

I think there are two parts,

 

1) Information - I'd rather have the information from an 'official' source so that it gets updated and is accurate, in that context National Rail or the TOC's that actually take the tickets is where I would want to see the information.

 

2) Buying tickets - It ought to be really straightforward to sell these online, choose ticket type, choose railcard (if req), type in name of user to be printed on ticket, pick start date, read terms and conditions, do all the delivery address/payment details etc and it turns up in the post a couple of days later, idealy with a leaflet that covers what the validity area etc. There is definately an opening for an existing rail travel agent to exploit that market.

 

Jon

[Edwin_m]

2) Buying tickets - It ought to be really straightforward to sell these online, choose ticket type, choose railcard (if req), type in name of user to be printed on ticket, pick start date, read terms and conditions, do all the delivery address/payment details etc and it turns up in the post a couple of days later, idealy with a leaflet that covers what the validity area etc. There is definately an opening for an existing rail travel agent to exploit that market.

 

As you can do this with "normal" single and return tickets, and the online sellers use the same fares database as the ticket offices, it's difficult to see why they can't or don't offer these as well.

 

I guess that the TOCs who promote Rovers/Rangers on their own sites probably feel they get worthwhile revenue from them but others probably see them as abstracting revenue from normal tickets (either in actual money or through the ORCATS mechanism where interavailable ticket revenue is divided between the TOCs). They may therefore be discouraging ATOC from pushing them on National Rail. For example "intercity" operators may be required for historic reasons to accept the Rover/Ranger promoted by the "regional" operator through whose territory they run.

[Gwiwer]

There is a school of thought which suggests that if you market a lost leader and win business that way then you will soon enough grow the business through sales of profitable products once people become aware of the full package.

 

No-one makes a profit selling Baked Beans at 10p a can but it gets people into the supermarket who are then likely to also purchase more profitable items either on the same or subsequent visits.

 

In the context of Railrovers / Rangers, where the traditional market has been a mix of rail enthusiasts and holidaymakers (within a region) / backpackers ("doing" the UK), then to capture that market sector through vigorous promotion of heavily discounted tickets offering (virtually) unrestricted travel is likely to entice many back to rail the next time they make a trip somewhere. If that is just a weekend at Auntie Maude's, or perhaps the trip to and from Auntie Maude's funeral, the ticket on that occasion may well be operator-specific and sold at a greater profit / net revenue gain.

 

These tickets need to be marketed. All of them. Nationally. It used to be easy to pick up a single nationally-distributed brochure in which could be found the Freedom of Scotland alongside the West of England Railrover and all in between. It didn't matter where you were the information was presented and readily available. Though it did require further localised leaflets to cope with the range of Area Runabouts and local Rangers. How many potential customers in Inverness or Chester would need to know the validity and prices of an SR Area 8 Runabout (East Worthing and Amberley to Salisbury and Winchester, for the record) when an SR Rover might be more suitable for their needs?

 

My point is these tickets will not sell so long as the public is kept in ignorance of them. At which point the TOCs can argue that poor sales alone will justify their withdrawal altogether.

[jonhall]

Of course it is. But the point of a Rover / Ranger is that it offers unlimited travel (sometimes only off-peak) rather than just a one-way or round-trip option.

 

Yes, I suspect most buyers of Rovers want the flexability of being able to get on and off tarins when they want, rather than be tied to specific trains or routes if their plans change. If you are going to an area by train, your itinerary may well need to be semi-flexable to compensate for poor-weather etc. The ability to change plans 'on the fly' ialso has a lot to be said for it.

[jonhall]

As you can do this with "normal" single and return tickets, and the online sellers use the same fares database as the ticket offices, it's difficult to see why they can't or don't offer these as well.

 

You would need to have a special page on your website because you are not makeing a journey from and to anywhere, but you are correct, they should be able to. I have tried phone-booking rovers, I can't remember the company I tried to use, but the call center (in India? ) couldn't cope with the idea any better than my local station.

 

I guess that the TOCs who promote Rovers/Rangers on their own sites probably feel they get worthwhile revenue from them but others probably see them as abstracting revenue from normal tickets (either in actual money or through the ORCATS mechanism where interavailable ticket revenue is divided between the TOCs). They may therefore be discouraging ATOC from pushing them on National Rail. For example "intercity" operators may be required for historic reasons to accept the Rover/Ranger promoted by the "regional" operator through whose territory they run.

 

I imagine the 'intercity operators' will get some additional business, from travellers to and from home-rover area, but it's 'hidden' traffic, there won't be a connection between the two purchases.

 

Last year a group of friends and I did a long weekend in Lancaster, we traveled kings Cross-Leeds by NatEx for ??11 one way, then switched to the freedom of the NW rover (yes Leeds is in the North West), to go onto Lancaster, we used the other days on trains around the region, but found it cheapest to buy returns Lancaster-Windermere on the Sunday when that's all we were doing, than 'waste' a day of the rover's validity. Coming back we did Lancaster-Preston-Ormskirk-Liverpool-Bidston where we bought singles from Shotton to Shrewsbury and took Wrexham and Shropshire back to Marylebone form there for ??10 (W&S were not running as far as Wrexham that day). So NatEx,FirstTP,Mersey Rail/Arriva trains Wales, and Wrexham and Shropshire (not to mention London Transport and SWT to get into London) all had extra income from the sale of a rover, but none would have been any the wiser...

 

Jon

[coly]

I think there are two parts,

 

1) Information - I'd rather have the information from an 'official' source so that it gets updated and is accurate, in that context National Rail or the TOC's that actually take the tickets is where I would want to see the information.

 

2) Buying tickets - It ought to be really straightforward to sell these online, choose ticket type, choose railcard (if req), type in name of user to be printed on ticket, pick start date, read terms and conditions, do all the delivery address/payment details etc and it turns up in the post a couple of days later, idealy with a leaflet that covers what the validity area etc. There is definately an opening for an existing rail travel agent to exploit that market.

 

Jon

 

Jon anything we would publish would be official and would be part of our contract with ATOC.

 

And

 

I know it ought to be simple to sell tickets but it is not straight forward and needs a lot of work and money to be able to sell rail tickets.

 

Coly

[JZjr]

Conductors such as I can sell the seven and fourteen day all line rail rover from our Advantix machines. Most will probably not know how to or have even heard of it mind but it is available through the 'Rover' option under the tertiary menu. Then just put 'All' in the search box and both of them should appear.

 

Railway staff can get their Priv discount on them as well. Having said that in my two years working on the trains so far I have only seen three of these and one of those was mine!!

 

I never thought of using a priv to get a ranger ticket, I usually get singles.

[Gwiwer]

Conductors such as I can sell the seven and fourteen day all line rail rover from our Advantix machines.

 

"One 14-day first class All Line Railrover please." You'd fall over backwards if you received that request issuing tickets on board. Then pick yourself up off the floor and hope it's not a cash sale as you just don't fancy carrying that much cash into Lime Street on Dole Morning

[John M Upton]

I've sold a All Lines Seven Day Rover but that was on a Priv. During a quiet moment down Portsmouth & Southsea yesterday I took a look through the Advantix machine (under the Secondary menu, not Tertiary as I mistakenly said earlier in this thread) and discovered that all the Rovers including a lot I have never heard of are all in there, putting in just the first letter of the code brings up all that begin with that letter.

 

The Four from Eight Scotland Freedom Rover looks interesting, especially when a Priv knocks it down to just ??28 apparently.

[Chris116]

Have just checked on the National Rail website to see if anything has changed regarding information on Rovers & Rangers and found that there is now functionality for the Summary (including maps), Validity & Purchasing categories.

 

However how much it will cost for any of them is still a mystery as there are no pricing details which I think is a major (deliberate?) omission

 

See below for information:

 

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/rangers_and_rovers.html

Like British Rail - They are Getting There!!! But rather slowly. Let's hope they manage to work out the prices in the not too distant future.

 

Chris

[Chris116]

Like British Rail - They are Getting There!!! But rather slowly. Let's hope they manage to work out the prices in the not too distant future.

 

Chris

I have just spoken to National Rail Enquiries about the lack of prices and was told that "all the information you need is available". When I asked where the information about prices was he could not tell me!

 

I then asked him for the prices of ten of the tickets that I have used in the last four years and he said that since I was on the internet I could look it up and hung up!!!!

 

I am less than impressed by this!

 

Chris

[John M Upton]

I then asked him for the prices of ten of the tickets that I have used in the last four years and he said that since I was on the internet I could look it up and hung up!!!!

 

I am less than impressed by this!

 

As am I, that is quite frankly disgraceful and if it were me I would fire off an e-mail of complaint to NRI to bring it to their attention.

 

Worth noting that in addition to the Rover information on our Advantix ticket machines, us Southern conductors are now in the process of being issued with Blackberry's which (providing you get an IT literate Conductor on your train ) means we now have on board Internet access to National Rail Inquiries and can find out information on Rovers that way as well. Oddly the Blackberry (I got mine on Wednesday) seems to be able to access RMWeb as well....

[59004 ( was Shedcombe....)]

Hi,

 

Can't say the maps are a real improvement. Too fancy stylish while trying to keep 'm sort of to scale ( too much IMHO ) and a little schematic ( too little IMHO ) making them awkward to read when in full view, where's good to read enlarged with the overview then lost completely.

 

Freedom of Devon & Cornwall, Freedom of Severn & Solent and Freedom of the South West checked, and all are as stated above.

 

Regards, Michel