Broken 4MT Brought at Warley

[darren01]

Hi 

I brought a 4MT today at Warley today ,the stand i got it from sold it as new too me.

When i got home i placed in on my rolling road to test it, it ran for a few turns of the wheels then jammed up!.

Having a closer look at the loco wheels i found that the model had been run before as the wheels where worn on the Tyre s , the slide bar on the rod was lose and falling out causing it to drop and jam.

Also i am not happy with the fact this was meant to be a brand new loco , but it had obviously seen some running as the wheels had wear marks on it!.  

The stand i brought it off gave me no receipt for the loco, and as i will not be able to go back and exchange it , would i be able to send it back to Bachmann for them to repair it?.

Darren01

[BR(S)]

You can send it back to Bachmann if you're unable to return it to the retailer, but their policy is to now charge for servicing/repairing second hand items (details on their website).

 

My initial advice would be to try lubricating the loco.  Although this sounds like one of those things that's unlikely to work, it's amazing what it does for locos that maybe haven't been run for a while.

[michaelp]

I'm really sorry to read what has happened to you, that is disgraceful. They must have been desperate for money!

I wonder how many others they conned.

 

You should be able to get the loco repaired though probably at cost unfortunately which you shouldn't be having to do.

 

Michael

[Jon Fitness]

Try to remember which stall it was and get in contact with them. It may have been a genuine mistake. Give them a chance to put things right. Do you have a programme/floor plan?

JF

[kevinlms]

Hi 

I brought a 4MT today at Warley today ,the stand i got it from sold it as new too me.

When i got home i placed in on my rolling road to test it, it ran for a few turns of the wheels then jammed up!.

Having a closer look at the loco wheels i found that the model had been run before as the wheels where worn on the Tyre s , the slide bar on the rod was lose and falling out causing it to drop and jam.

Also i am not happy with the fact this was meant to be a brand new loco , but it had obviously seen some running as the wheels had wear marks on it!.  

The stand i brought it off gave me no receipt for the loco, and as i will not be able to go back and exchange it , would i be able to send it back to Bachmann for them to repair it?.

Darren01

Sounds dodgy to me that no receipt. How come you didn't ask for one, since it was new? Did the price you paid, reflect that of a brand new one? Do you remember which stand you purchased it from, if you do, why not contact them & relate your troubles?

 

I would certainly make some effort to follow up, a bit hard though if you have no idea from who you purchased it from.

[darren01]

Hi 

All the stands i brought stuff from at Warley , not one stand gave me a receipt for the items i brought. I did ask for one but was told as he did have none to give out and if there was a problem with the model just send it back for a refund?.

i did ask them if this was a second hand model and was told no it was not, I do know the stand i did get it from,the only thing was it was the last one he had at that price.

[RFS]

I bought a number of items at Warley and every single time I got a receipt.  If I was buying a new loco, and the seller said he couldn't provide a receipt, I would be suspicious and walk away.  The point of buying new is that it should include manufacturer's warranty if bought from an authorized dealer.  If things go wrong after 6 months, say, you will need a receipt to prove to the manufacturer that you are entitled to a repair under warranty. 

 

I bought a new loco at a bargain price but it looks like it has a problem with one wheel catching once per revolution.  It was definitely new - I have an official receipt and the dealer I bought it from is actually my local model shop so I can take it back (which he said was fine) or use the receipt to get it fixed under warranty.

[BigAndy]

It is your right as a consumer to expect a receipt for any goods bought.

 

It is also law that the business/person/shop or on this case trader has to offer you a receipt, you can of course refuse it, but the point is if they didnt offer you a receipt then they have committed an offence. ( I know Warley can be horrendously busy, but they should still follow protocol )

 

As others have already said, I would be straight back onto them and don't put up with any guff. If it's not resulted in a way you're happy with, I would also contact the organisers of the show and let them know that they have traders in their exhibition who are flagrantly disregarding British trading standards.

 

As Jon pointed out though, give them at least the opportunity to rectify the problem and start politely but with a no nonsense approach.

 

Hope this helps

 

Andy

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

If you have no receipt, your case in law is very weak. Nevertheless, Warley is expensive for stand holders and if there are any complaints or enough complaints, the Warley organisers could refuse the standholder future access.

 

I think it fair to say that all the standholders at Warley are well known in trade circles and many have been coming to the BIC for many years. Most i think go because in trade and retail terms it is quite good national advertising. Sometimes the trader has to employ or use staff who are less knowledgeable about the stand's content or the model railway market in general. Perhaps you encountered one of those.

 

Your first and indeed only redress is to contact the stallholder at his premises on Monday and lodge a complaint. As long as he admits that he sold you the item, then he will want to make sure that he offers redress and even an apology.

 

If he does not admit having sold the item or cannot remember doing so and therefore is reluctant to honour your complaint, your case in law is very weak.  Never ever buy anything without some form of receipt but a verbal contract is a verbal contract particularly with reference to the item being mis-described.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to hear about this Darren and it does sound very much like sharp practice although we could be generous and just thing of it as their mistake.  However there didd seem to be a bit of 'not so new' stuff about yesterday which is probably at least partially accounted for by the lack of new items actually reaching the retailers.  

 

Incidentally paying by card does at least guarantee a receipt - cash sales don't necessarily get one from some traders (e.g. the wheels I bought in a cash sale didn't come with one although they are absolutely traceable to source so to speak).

 

If you know the name of the trader then contact them and ask them to rectify the mistake.  If they don't play ball I would suggest rattling teh cage of the relevant Trading Standards folk and doing a spot of naming & shaming - but make very sure of your ground before you do that.

[darren01]

How much did you pay for it ? .

I got the 4mt for £49.95

[darren01]

If you have no receipt, your case in law is very weak. Nevertheless, Warley is expensive for stand holders and if there are any complaints or enough complaints, the Warley organisers could refuse the standholder future access.

 

I think it fair to say that all the standholders at Warley are well known in trade circles and many have been coming to the BIC for many years. Most i think go because in trade and retail terms it is quite good national advertising. Sometimes the trader has to employ or use staff who are less knowledgeable about the stand's content or the model railway market in general. Perhaps you encountered one of those.

 

Your first and indeed only redress is to contact the stallholder at his premises on Monday and lodge a complaint. As long as he admits that he sold you the item, then he will want to make sure that he offers redress and even an apology.

 

If he does not admit having sold the item or cannot remember doing so and therefore is reluctant to honour your complaint, your case in law is very weak.  Never ever buy anything without some form of receipt but a verbal contract is a verbal contract particularly with reference to the item being mis-described.

I did have two friends with me at the time i brought the loco from the stand as witnesses

Darren

[darren01]

Sorry to hear about this Darren and it does sound very much like sharp practice although we could be generous and just thing of it as their mistake.  However there didd seem to be a bit of 'not so new' stuff about yesterday which is probably at least partially accounted for by the lack of new items actually reaching the retailers.  

 

Incidentally paying by card does at least guarantee a receipt - cash sales don't necessarily get one from some traders (e.g. the wheels I bought in a cash sale didn't come with one although they are absolutely traceable to source so to speak).

 

If you know the name of the trader then contact them and ask them to rectify the mistake.  If they don't play ball I would suggest rattling teh cage of the relevant Trading Standards folk and doing a spot of naming & shaming - but make very sure of your ground before you do that.

Hi Mike

I did try to pay with my card for the loco, but he could not take cards at the show ,so handed over cash for it

Darren

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike

I did try to pay with my card for the loco, but he could not take cards at the show ,so handed over cash for it

Darren

 

As noted above he should still have given a receipt Darren - but in all the rush and crowds you can't be blamed for overlooking that.  Mind you 50 quid does sound a bit cheap to me for a new one _ I wonder what sort of game someone was playing when I hear prices like that.

[Kenton]

 

I wonder what sort of game someone was playing when I hear prices like that.

selling second hand as new ? Some box shifters get a bad name for selling the boxes at unbelievable prices. The stock having come from potentially suspect sources. A bit like buying tea towels in a market from the back of a lorry.

 

Easy after the fact, but very sound advice for everyone. Get a receipt, or pay by credit card, or walk away, or be prepared to take a loss. Any seller worthy of their name will give you a receipt, be suspicious of any that do not.

[Stevelewis]

It  would  be  appropriate  I think  to  advise  the  organiser  of  the  event  of  this  problem,  if  only  for  future  reference   so that they can be  aware of  the  trader.

 

It may also be helpful if you can remember  the name of the  trader.

[Ian Hargrave]

There is already an easy way to avoid this happening.Take your purchases to the test track.....for all gauges,immediately after buying.It's free.Avoids post-traumatic stress.So sorry it has happened and there are no excuses for the trader who scammed you.Hope you manage to sort it.

[edcayton]

Not that the price is relevant here, but I got a Bachmann 4MT free when I subscribed to BRM.

 

I have also bought from stands at shows without even knowing the name of the trader, won't do it again. It's really too easy to get caught in the rush, and it's not worth saving the few quid-you'll probably find it cheaper on the web when you get home anyway.

 

I hope Darren gets his sorted.

 

Ed

[Madcaravanner]

OK Bachmann 4MT

 

IF it is the split chassis version then they no longer do spare parts for it  ( I know as I have one that the motion exploded on )

 

If it is a later model they do have spares BUT they do charge quite a bit and they do not supply to shops only individuals to stop them selling on 

 

 

BUT as others have said the seller SHOULD have given you a receipt even if he had to hand write it 

Try to find which dealer it was and get on to them as under the SOGact they lied plain and simple selling a used item as new is a lie 

[6959]

About twenty years ago I had a similar problem to the one OP is describing. Back then I bought a Dapol 56xx at a toy fair in Bristol. Minutes after buying it my friend noticed that the safety valve bonnet was glued on back to front when it was made at the factory. As it was the only one of these the seller had and none was available from other stalls I decided to live with it. Later, I had second thoughts and sent the body with a covering letter to Dapol saying that it was a manufacturing fault in the body but the loco otherwise looked new and worked OK. I asked what they could do for me and Dapol exchanged it for a good one without hesitation.

 

Five months later at the Bristol Toy Fair I met up with the seller again. As the 56xx problem was not his fault and was not obvious I gave him the benefit of the doubt. He had a Dapol 'County' I was looking for. It had a card on it saying 'NEW' but, just in case, before purchase I specifically asked the seller if it was brand new and unused and had a full manufacturer's warranty. He confirmed that it did, so I bought it with confidence. When I opened the box it was obviously not new and had parts missing. I immediately took it back to the seller who refused to exchange it and gave me a printed form, that I was not previously aware of, stating that all goods on his stall were second-hand and were sold 'as seen' with no warranty. His justification for this policy was that he was being 'scammed' by dishonest buyers who bought a new Bachmann loco from him, switched the chassis for a defective Mainline chassis, then tried to claim for a faulty loco.

 

Like the original poster I was up a creek without a paddle. I  complained to Trading Standards in Manchester where the seller was based. Trading Standards replied that as the seller offered a mail order service they could get him using the Distance Selling Regulations. The letter I got from them said that they had held a first meeting with the seller and had explained to him the error of his ways. Trading Standards also said that they had offered him 'counselling' for six months after which time they would decide if  this was sufficient or if  further action was justified. Soon after this, the seller's advertisement disappeared from the modelling magazines and I have not seen his trading name or person since. Maybe he put it down to experience or just used another trading name and carried on regardless. I had some sympathy for him because I did the toy fairs for a while (just to get in as soon as the doors opened because all the bargains are long gone before the paying public gets in) and soon learned that some punters are bigger crooks than most sellers by a mile.

 

My advice to OP is to try and remember where the stall was on the floor plan and to contact the organisers to find out who was selling in that area. I did this on another occasion and the organiser willingly gave me the seller's name, address and phone number. On yet another occasion when I bought new but duff goods at a show, the organiser had a quiet word with the seller who then offered to make amends. If an organiser gets a lot of complaints about a particular trader the word soon gets about and the seller may not be so welcome when he or she next asks to book another stall.

 

Changing tack slightly. Sellers should not underestimate the powers of Trading Standards especially if the complaint involves counterfeit goods, customs and excise or VAT fraud. At computer shows I have met a few traders of copies of CDs, DVDs or software who ceased trading rather suddenly after Trading Standards officers and the police knocked on their door early one morning and gave them a very frightening once over, or was it third degree?

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I did have two friends with me at the time i brought the loco from the stand as witnesses

Darren

 

That is good but remember that you are still in the area of a verbal contract and a mis describe. The law infinitely prefers a written contract which is what a receipt actually is. i imagine that you would not wish to pursue this case to law anyway due to high extra costs and the undeniable fact that they might prove irrecoverable anyway.

 

You will have to contact the supplier. It is possible that he already knows by reading this or being advised by another member. Either way, you need to gain the seller's admission that a) he supplied you and b) that he wishes to redress the situation. All I have done is highlight that sabre rattling under the circumsatnces is probably not going to be productive.

 

The trader will be painfully aware that reputations are made by many good acts and lost to only one bad one.

[Butler Henderson]

What 4MT is it, Split chassis or not 4-6-0, 2-6-4T, 2-6-0? Ref no.? Did the seller actually say is was new or did you or one of your colelagues make that statement to him.

 

Its quite amusing some of the comments you hear, the classic in recent years was the guy desparately looking for Lemar OO locos which he had been told were very very good. I explained l thought he meant Lima and that other makes were better. He looked at me as if I was mad and insisted that was wrong for me to say, I apologised as the customer is always right.....and he bought the only Lima loco on the clubs sales stand, the BR blue liveried 4 wheel continental diesel!

[darren01]

What 4MT is it, Split chassis or not 4-6-0, 2-6-4T, 2-6-0? Ref no.? Did the seller actually say is was new or did you or one of your colelagues make that statement to him.

 

Its quite amusing some of the comments you hear, the classic in recent years was the guy desparately looking for Lemar OO locos which he had been told were very very good. I explained l thought he meant Lima and that other makes were better. He looked at me as if I was mad and insisted that was wrong for me to say, I apologised as the customer is always right.....and he bought the only Lima loco on the clubs sales stand, the BR blue liveried 4 wheel continental diesel!

Hi 

I asked him before i brought it was it second hand and was told no its brand new, the loco is from the blue ribbon range and when i did open it ,it looked as if it had never been out of the box.

It was only when i got home and had a closer look , the wheels had wear makes on both the loco and the tender, when i placed it on my rolling road it failed and jammed up.

I know what stand i got it from so will call them in the morning and sort it out, if he can not replace it i will keep it and fix it myself.

thank you all for helping me with this.

[Edge]

I know this is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, but for those who would like to avoid situations such as this, it is best to pop along to a test track. There are always a couple at Warley, and they can test everything from T to Gauge 1. They are nice and friendly and will show up any problem immediately.

 

I got a Q1 and a Pannier this weekend, both Dapol models in N. The Q1 had a badly fitted drive shaft that meant it sounded awful going along and seemed in danger of expiring on the spot.

 

A quick trip back to the stall and a like for like exchange was made in seconds. No fuss, no hard feelings, no money spent on things that didn't work.

 

Also very useful as I only had a one day ticket, and would have either had to wait or buy another ticket to ge back in today and exchange it

 

I am very sorry for your situation, and can only repeat that getting a paper receipt in the future is essential. Any seller worth their salt should consider it a part of the sale.

 

It is also possible that this is a case of mistaken identity, so to speak. If he mistook the box for something else, he may have mistakenly described something to you. It's very easy to become distracted when on these sort of stands, so see what he says tomorrow when you call him

[andyram]

I think that the stallholder was clearly trying to pull a con trick here. Perhaps it may be worth naming and shaming the stallholder on here to warn all other potential customers who may meet them at other shows!