Wimbledon - Sutton & other 3rd rail branches

[robertcwp]

A mid-1970s view of Chessington South:

 

2-SAP_5925_ChessingtonS_Oct-75 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Tolworth station:

 

TolworthStation by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Sand empties passing through Tolworth station:

 

P1050291 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Pete 75C]

"Wall of Death" surely because of the concrete wall next to the said gradient and sharp curve at the bottom.

 

 

I believe the nickname came from a combination of curve and wall, not necessarily the gradient. The name "Wall of Death" does not come entirely from the section of wall and gradient visible from the country end of Platforms 1 & 2. The curve gets more severe further towards West Sutton and the wall gets higher! There's little photographic evidence as obviously, it's "between stations". I've walked this section of track and it is an appropriate nickname!

 

[DY444]

I don't believe that it will ever form part of an Underground extension. There is a strong case to incorporate it with Tramlink. That would be a win-win with a much more frequent service and enhanced capacity for Southern trains at Sutton. No doubt there would be some complaints about the loss of through services to central London but, in my experience, most passengers change trains anyway at Wimbledon as it's quicker.

 

As part of the Thameslink scheme it was proposed to run the loop service to and from Blackfriars only (and with a doubling of service frequency).  That decision has been reversed due to a campaign run by the local MP following "a large number" (his words) of complaints about the loss of through services into the Thameslink core.  Basically people did not want to have to change at Blackfriars.  The trains are very well loaded between Wimbledon and Central London in the peaks.

[Pete 75C]

Just a quick comment on robercwp's shot of Chessington South. That's possibly the most austere piece of interwar railway architecture I think I've ever seen! In comparison with the shot of Tolworth from a much earlier date, it hasn't aged well. If the large brick building on the right of the Chessington shot is the station building, it seems bigger than the station would warrant. Also, what is the large concrete structure right foreground. Apologies, but the Chessington branch was not one of my old stamping grounds.

[Oldddudders]

Good to have so many weighing in with info, views & pics on this thread!

 

The structures on the Chessie branch were to a (German?) design, which was born in the days when concrete was still new and exciting as a building medium. More recently, NR or SWT has done its best to tart them up a bit, but they have all the visual sadness of the material at this age. The big grey slabs in the right foreground of Robert's pic are simply retaining wall elements. Behind them, at the same level as the photographer, is the station forecourt, with #71 bus stop a little further on, and the former coal office across the road. The brick structure is the station building, with stairs to climb in leaving the platform.

 

Huge concrete beams are a hallmark of the branch, with the underbridges at Chessington North and Tolworth, and maybe others, having a similar appearance. Despite my being at school in Dorking, several fellow-scholars who were from this area - one in Gilders Road, one in Moor Lane, within sight of Chessington North. They would have been very pleased if the line had continued to Leatherhead as intended! 

[Oldddudders]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chessington_South_stn_building.jpg

[Oldddudders]

Nearly 40 years after Robert's pic, this is what the wall at Chessington South looked like in May this year.

 

[Fat Controller]

My uncle used to live on Sheephouse Way, near Malden Manor station; when I stayed there on holiday in the late 1960s/early 1970s, the highlight of the morning was the Acton- Chessington/Tolworth train of coal hoppers, hauled by an Electro-Diesel, sometimes with a brake tender in tow. One depot belonged to Charringtons, and so there would be some unfitted hoppers branded with their name in large characters, along with others either branded 'House Coal Concentration' or in plain grey or bauxite. Being used to noisy steam and diesel locos in South Wales, I used to find the almost silent passage of the ED somewhat disconcerting.

[Joseph_Pestell]

As part of the Thameslink scheme it was proposed to run the loop service to and from Blackfriars only (and with a doubling of service frequency).  That decision has been reversed due to a campaign run by the local MP following "a large number" (his words) of complaints about the loss of through services into the Thameslink core.  Basically people did not want to have to change at Blackfriars.  The trains are very well loaded between Wimbledon and Central London in the peaks.

 

I really do not believe that there are huge numbers of passengers from this line to destinations beyond Blackfriars. The greater benefits that could be obtained from light-rail frequencies and increased capacity towards Epsom far outweigh them.

[Pete 75C]

I quite like the Southern architecture from around the date of the Wall of Death and Chessington branches, but it doesn't age well unless looked after! From memory station buildings like St Helier used to be basic pre-cast concrete structures leading from street level down to the platforms. I believe they've mostly been replaced by open footbridges in Thameslink days. As open stations, there's no need for a booking hall any more.

[robertcwp]

Here is the exterior of Wimbledon Chase station in the 1950s, but still displaying Southern Railway signage:

 

WimbledonChase_1957 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

The station building at West Sutton was demolished some years ago and houses built on the site.

 

I have used the peak hour services from Wimbledon to the Thameslink occasionally and agree that they are very busy.  At Wimbledon, lots of people from stations on the line from Sutton alight but many more board.  I think there may have been more to the campaign to keep Wimbledon on Thameslink than just the numbers.  Being on the Thameslink line probably boosts house prices.  The Crossrail connection at Farringdon from 2018 will improve the usefulness of the through services too.  The line has the advantage of avoiding the need to use the Tube to reach King's Cross or St Pancras, or Luton Airport, which is a plus-point for many passengers with luggage or who don't like the Tube, and for whom speed is less important (Wimbledon-King's Cross via Vauxhall and the Victoria Line is much quicker).

[Pete 75C]

A nice recent "comparison" shot to the one above.

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Here is the exterior of Wimbledon Chase station in the 1950s, but still displaying Southern Railway signage:

 

WimbledonChase_1957 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

The station building at West Sutton was demolished some years ago and houses built on the site.

 

I have used the peak hour services from Wimbledon to the Thameslink occasionally and agree that they are very busy.  At Wimbledon, lots of people from stations on the line from Sutton alight but many more board.  I think there may have been more to the campaign to keep Wimbledon on Thameslink than just the numbers.  Being on the Thameslink line probably boosts house prices.  The Crossrail connection at Farringdon from 2018 will improve the usefulness of the through services too.  The line has the advantage of avoiding the need to use the Tube to reach King's Cross or St Pancras, or Luton Airport, which is a plus-point for many passengers with luggage or who don't like the Tube, and for whom speed is less important (Wimbledon-King's Cross via Vauxhall and the Victoria Line is much quicker).

 

I did not suggest that Wimbledon should not be on Thameslink - that's a different matter. It's the Sutton-Wimbledon part of the route which I think would be better converted to light-rail operation, partly for the greater frequency that could be operated but also to increase capacity between Sutton, Epsom and points beyond.

 

Edit: If I had luggage and was going from Wimbledon to King's Cross, I think that I would use LUL with same platform change.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Joseph_Pestell

[Suzie]

Something tells me that the Sutton to Wimbledon line would be a lot busier if it were an extension of the Northern line, capturing all the passengers who take a bus to Morden instead of taking the train. Realistically the Northern line does not have any interchange with anything other than buses in that area. Perhaps then Portsmouth might be a southern terminus for Thameslink via Sutton, reflecting Brighton on the other branch with Thameslink trains via Wimbledon going to Guildford.

 

It would be sad to see another loss of heavy rail in the area with the direct service from Wimbledon to Croydon going over to tram already, but if passenger numbers are low...

[Pete 75C]

I agree it would be a shame to lose the Wimbledon - Sutton line to light rail if it ever happened. That's only from a "rose-tinted nostalgia" point of view though. I was working at Selhurst when the last train ran over the West Croydon to Wimbledon line. Although not rostered to drive the line on that day, I did manage to get in a trip in the cab. As usual whenever a last train runs, there were a huge number of people around taking pictures etc, probably far more on the last day than the entire line saw in a month! I don't know what the passenger figures were on that line, but having driven over it plenty of times, I can only guess they weren't huge. I assume the figures are better now thanks to Tramlink? Still not a big fan of light rail though!

[andyman7]

The AM's office was originally at Cheam! I think Frank Gladwin was the original incumbent. Was Don Love AM there for a while? Perhaps Tony Goff. Alec Shore was SM at Sutton for years. I think Gary Walker may have been a supervisor there.

A bit before my time as I was the SM at Sutton from 1991-93 (Tony Goff was SE Ops director at the time). At that time, West Sutton, Sutton Common and Wimbledon Chase were the only remaining staffed stations, West Sutton had lost its original buildings and had a new ticket office in the entrance passageway, but Sutton Common, St Helier and Wimbledon Chase still had their original buildings. The guy at Wimbledon Chase worked a split shift and did a sterling job of keeping the station clean despite the fact that all the shop tenants had been evicted as part of a BRB Property Board scheme to redevelop the station. He had worked at Wimbledon Chase since 1956, when the station staff had numbered seven and included a night turn! The irony is that in 2013, even though it is now unstaffed, the shops are once again all re-let as the redevelopment never happened. It is now the only surviving original booking hall as Sutton Common and St Helier have been demolished, whilst the empty land in front of West Sutton has been redeveloped at housing.

 

I remember pushing hard for the boarded up platform buildings to be demolished but couldn't get the funding as it required all the electrics to be moved - some years later Thameslink were able to get this done. In fact in general the condition of the stations in South London is an awful lot better than the early 90s, even if some of the, ahem, character has been lost.

[jonhall]

 

 

A couple of scans from Modern Railways August 1963

 

Jon

 

 

[robertcwp]

I agree it would be a shame to lose the Wimbledon - Sutton line to light rail if it ever happened. That's only from a "rose-tinted nostalgia" point of view though. I was working at Selhurst when the last train ran over the West Croydon to Wimbledon line. Although not rostered to drive the line on that day, I did manage to get in a trip in the cab. As usual whenever a last train runs, there were a huge number of people around taking pictures etc, probably far more on the last day than the entire line saw in a month! I don't know what the passenger figures were on that line, but having driven over it plenty of times, I can only guess they weren't huge. I assume the figures are better now thanks to Tramlink? Still not a big fan of light rail though!

I think the figure in the first full year of Tramlink operation was around eight times the number of passengers on the Wimbledon-Croydon line as in the last full year of main line operation.  Tramlink traffic has almost doubled since then and work is planned (and trams are on order) to boost the Wimbledon service as it can't cope at busy times.

[robertcwp]

Something tells me that the Sutton to Wimbledon line would be a lot busier if it were an extension of the Northern line, capturing all the passengers who take a bus to Morden instead of taking the train. Realistically the Northern line does not have any interchange with anything other than buses in that area. Perhaps then Portsmouth might be a southern terminus for Thameslink via Sutton, reflecting Brighton on the other branch with Thameslink trains via Wimbledon going to Guildford.

 

It would be sad to see another loss of heavy rail in the area with the direct service from Wimbledon to Croydon going over to tram already, but if passenger numbers are low...

The big problem with improving interchange with the Northern Line would be lack of capacity on the Northern Line to handle additional traffic.  Even with the upgrade currently in progress, it will still be an extremely busy line.  If Crossrail 2 is built, it will connect with the Northern Line at Tooting Broadway.  I don't know whether this will relieve pressure on the Northern Line or increase it. 

[Oldddudders]

I remember Don as Area Manager while I was a "runner" in the AM's office. Lovely guy. He was instrumental in getting me my move from platform staff to train crew at Norwood after the station manager (can't remember his name) blocked it. I believe a few strings were pulled! Gary Walker eventually moved to Sutton as supervisor after spending some time at West Croydon. I went on my first "track walk" between West Croydon and Waddon Marsh with Gary and also remember climbing the London end semaphores with him at West Croydon.

I bumped into Don Love on the Cob at Porthmadog a few weeks back. We were both Blaenau-bound, but he was in senior company, so we couldn't chat for long.

 

Gary had been a signalman at Oxted, I think. Came into Control for a while in the early '70s when I was there, but wasn't comfortable.

[Oldddudders]

A bit before my time as I was the SM at Sutton from 1991-93 (Tony Goff was SE Ops director at the time).

I first met Tony when he was ASM at London Bridge 1973. He then had a sideways move to Woolwich and was bored to tears. A very sound railwayman of the best sort, IMHO. Last saw him outside Railtrack House about a dozen years ago, rushed off his feet!

[robertcwp]

The Modern Railways article above mentions that Worcester Park was one of the non-mechanised Charringtons depots that the Chessington depot replaced.  Here is the old Worcester Park yard.  The brick building at the far end was Charringtons' office and stood for many years after the yard had become the car park.

 

Worcester-Park-Yard-6 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[steviesparx]

 

Edit: If I had luggage and was going from Wimbledon to King's Cross, I think that I would use LUL with same platform change.

 

Well, as a Wimbledon resident, I have used the Thameslink service to both Kings Cross and Luton airport when carrying luggage.

 - so much easier to just plonk down on a seat and not have to worry about lugging between platforms, other commuters...

But we all have our preferences I guess...

[Joseph_Pestell]

I agree it would be a shame to lose the Wimbledon - Sutton line to light rail if it ever happened. That's only from a "rose-tinted nostalgia" point of view though. I was working at Selhurst when the last train ran over the West Croydon to Wimbledon line. Although not rostered to drive the line on that day, I did manage to get in a trip in the cab. As usual whenever a last train runs, there were a huge number of people around taking pictures etc, probably far more on the last day than the entire line saw in a month! I don't know what the passenger figures were on that line, but having driven over it plenty of times, I can only guess they weren't huge. I assume the figures are better now thanks to Tramlink? Still not a big fan of light rail though!

The figures are massively better for Tramlink with finding enough capacity now a real headache. That success comes from a combination of frequent services and stops in places that were not served before (despite dense population).

 

The old service, run with just one 2EPB, had a forty-minute interval and usually only a couple of passengers on each train when I travelled on it in the 70s and 80s.

[Pete 75C]

Ignoring Wimbledon to Sutton for a moment and recalling the Wimbledon to West Croydon single line, I agree that Tramlink's success is probably due in no small part to the frequency and number of stops, but ironically if you zoom out in Google Maps or Bing (for example), the route of the West Croydon - Wimbledon line passes through some areas of fairly low (for London) residential density. There is Mitcham Common for a start, and particularly around Beddington Lane, it's far more industrial than residential. For a lot of the route, you'd see more fork lift trucks and warehouses than you would houses. Just about every residential development along the former railway corridor was within easy walking distance of one of the original stations pre-Tramlink. I think a lot of the problem is that people can be lazy. Today a quarter or half mile walk to a railway station is seen as unacceptable to a lot of people. Give them a tram stop at the end of their street (but no further) and they may use it rather than get the car out.

You're quite right though that it was under-used. As a driver on that route, quite often as I ran in to a station other than West Croydon, Mitcham Junction or Wimbledon, there would not be a soul around. Pre-456, you may hear the tell-tale slam of a single door letting you know that maybe one passenger had got off.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Pete_S