Wimbledon - Sutton & other 3rd rail branches

[grandadbob]

Certainly agree with the lazy bit - on the WIM - SUT branch there are 3 stations that I can ( & have) walked to fairly easily even with my dodgy knee!

[roythebus]

During my time running a bus company in Mitcham, for a while I used a yard that backed onto the single line. Trains were about every 40 minutes, but irregular intervals. Later, we submitted a tender for the rail replacement bus service, but weren't successful. Later, when Tramlink opened, my depot moved along the line a bit and the trams used to whizz past every 8 minutes, packed solid all day and all night! Quite where all those people came from is a mystery. It just shows though, provide a good service and people will use it.

 

BTW, my company was the first to use Routemasters on a Tramlink replacement bus service when that went belly-up one day! We even had Tramlink blinds for the fleet.

[phil gollin]

 

............... As a driver on that route, quite often as I ran in to a station other than West Croydon, Mitcham Junction or Wimbledon, there would not be a soul around. Pre-456, you may hear the tell-tale slam of a single door letting you know that maybe one passenger had got off.

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As a schoolboy using Mitcham station in the 1960s, it was fun seeing the staff being arranged for late running trains with the porter using the wooden crossing (occasionally whilst a train was in sight).

 

Can you recall whether the goods were hauled by a c-class (in steam times) or E4 or ???????

 

PART of the attraction of Tramlink I THINK is the prospect of "free" travel.

 

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Edited December 15, 2013 by phil gollin

[Oldddudders]

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Can you recall whether the goods were hauled by a c-class (in steam times) or ???????

 

 

More likely a Vulcan - C2x, some with a double-dome for top-feed. C class was a SER loco, not so often seen on the former Brighton lines.

[Joseph_Pestell]

More likely a Vulcan - C2x, some with a double-dome for top-feed. C class was a SER loco, not so often seen on the former Brighton lines.

 

I agree with that. Norwood Jct used to turn out C2x to work nearly all local freight. One of the last steam drivers there (and I think the last to qualify as a driver) was Clive Groom who went on to provide training on loco driving at the Bluebell. I once had an opportunity to go on one of those courses when someone pulled out the day before but was unable to take up the offer much to my lasting regret.

[Peter Heather]

I agree with that. Norwood Jct used to turn out C2x to work nearly all local freight. {snip}

C2x were certainly the most commonly seen locos on the freights but Norwood Junction would turn out almost anything at times. I've seen E4x, E6, E2, N classes as well as standard tanks and even a W on one occasion. What we now know as 08 or 09s also turned up now and then on the freights. I'm sure there were others as well

 

Peter

 

[phil gollin]

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THANK  YOU  !      .   .   .   OLDDUDDERS,  Joseph_Pestell and especially Peter Heather  for that.

 

Those photos are great  ( I did once see a Q1 go through West Croydon with quite a long coal train (presumably for Waddon Marsh ) but even I could spot that one at a tender age.

 

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[robertcwp]

The Waddon Marsh area has changed almost beyond recognition today.  The Tramlink stop is further south than the station of that name used to be, with Ampere Way being a little to the north of the old station site.  The chimneys of Croydon B power station are all that survive, with the rest of the site now being IKEA.

 

http://goo.gl/maps/3qiTh

[coline33]

Thank you, Phil, for stating your recollection of a Q1 on a long coal train through West Croydon.   I have been waiting for someone to confirm seeing one and being long, ie. more than 20 wagons, can you recall it snaking across the tracks at the bridge end of the station?   Alas, so far no photos have come to light but I have always thought the Q1s must have appeared as the Qs had been allocated earlier to Waddon Marsh duties, albeit general freight but could have performed any shunting duty whilst there. 

[adb968008]

Just found this thread, and thought i’d Pose a thought..

 

But Cheam has wide station area, I’ve often wondered why London overground terminated at West Croydon and not Cheam, considering the volumes of people whom decamp at West Croydon and await the next Sutton bound service.

 

Indeed if Wimbledon-Sutton ever gained a proper service (some days trains are now non-existent outside rush hour, due to Thameslinks mess) Cheam could play a part, as it’s likely Sutton would need to give up a platform for a tube or tramlink line.

 

Either way Sutton today is over crowded, Epsom Downs could do with a loop, and so many passengers are changing at West Croydon, a solution is needed. My preference would be the district taking over the line to Sutton, Thameslink terminating Wimbledon via Tooting, and Overground extending to Epsom downs.

 

An alternate idea could be NR giving up the platform for Thameslink, and having it use the other platforms, with a siding beyond the station to turn back. (It’s 1 train each way every 30 minutes). Let trams take over to Sutton, extend the curve of death upto street level onto Bridge st, Musgrave street and across the front of the station (as per the current plans) and continue down high st to Benhill and South Wimbledon...

Part of the problem with the Sutton Wimbledon line is that stations are in the wrong place... Cheam Road, Sutton Sports Village / Reigate road would make more sense, indeed the team plan for Rose Hill should detour via St Helier Hospital. (Isn’t there a sunken shaft for a planned / abandoned tube tunnel here ?).

Edited September 17, 2018 by adb968008

[Redkiterail]

London overground trains will be full before west croydon, there is no physical way for the distric line to kake over nr netowkr plus there would be issues with fourth rail and modifications to the trains the tramlink scheme to be road as there is no physical space for deicate track on the line. Stations were built before modern london and had to deal with land owners qnd acess rights. Thameslink need the wimbledon to sutton section to turn back as it will allow a higher number of trains to run. Also part of the timetable issue is that wimbledon to sutton was orrginally planned to go the bays at blackfaris but the mp kept them going through the core.

[coline33]

Just found this thread, and thought i’d Pose a thought..

 

But Cheam has wide station area, I’ve often wondered why London overground terminated at West Croydon and not Cheam, considering the volumes of people whom decamp at West Croydon and await the next Sutton bound service.

 

Indeed if Wimbledon-Sutton ever gained a proper service (some days trains are now non-existent outside rush hour, due to Thameslinks mess) Cheam could play a part, as it’s likely Sutton would need to give up a platform for a tube or tramlink line.

 

Either way Sutton today is over crowded, Epsom Downs could do with a loop, and so many passengers are changing at West Croydon, a solution is needed. My preference would be the district taking over the line to Sutton, Thameslink terminating Wimbledon via Tooting, and Overground extending to Epsom downs.

 

An alternate idea could be NR giving up the platform for Thameslink, and having it use the other platforms, with a siding beyond the station to turn back. (It’s 1 train each way every 30 minutes). Let trams take over to Sutton, extend the curve of death upto street level onto Bridge st, Musgrave street and across the front of the station (as per the current plans) and continue down high st to Benhill and South Wimbledon...

Part of the problem with the Sutton Wimbledon line is that stations are in the wrong place... Cheam Road, Sutton Sports Village / Reigate road would make more sense, indeed the team plan for Rose Hill should detour via St Helier Hospital. (Isn’t there a sunken shaft for a planned / abandoned tube tunnel here ?).

Yes, I do not disagree with the present Sutton station scenario.   The Overground ought to take over the Epsom Downs branch but remember it does cross the border into Surrey CC area.   In the revised 1968 scheme for the Croydon trams there was a service from New Addington estate to Tattenham Corner station via East & West Croydon (junction with the Wimbledon service), Sutton and Epsom Downs.   Chris Green took this as the base for his study into converting certain SR commuter services to tram which was published in April 1987.   It showed that it would attract a much greater ridership but not producing the revenue level to meet the costs.   When these proposals were cut back to just concentrate on the Wimbledon service, the cross Croydon section could no longer use railway land so the way through the streets had to be found.

 

The Wimbledon - Sutton line should remain Thameslink but the key to improving serving Rose Hill and the St.Helier Estate is the Sutton Tramlink as outlined in the public consultations.   Yes, South Wimbledon is not the best interchange but does give one exercise!!!   Certainly Morden Road stop would see greater use as it becomes a change point with Croydon Tramlink.   At the Sutton end it would not affect the platforms at the station unless the decision is taken to continue it to Belmont.   Personally, if it were to go to Belmont then being tram why not extend it to Tattenham Corner station with a Racecourse stop in between.   In many ways it was a pity for the LCC St.Helier estate that the 1928 LCC reserved track tramway was dropped in favour of the Underground and Southern extensions.   If all three had been done then the present issues would not have been so great.   I only hope that by the time Sutton Tramlink comes about that the Chinese development of hydrogen powered articulated trams would have proved their worth in Foshan and be adopted universally to cut light rail/tram construction costs by a third.   Having a depot with the hydrogen plant en route to Sutton would also boast the conversion of local Croydon & Sutton buses.   Certainly the present plans would refreshv (environmentally and commercially) Sutton town centre - assuming 'The High Street' still exists by then!!!

[phil gollin]

I've always thought that the Northern line should be extended from Morden to Sutton.

 

( Also, the Victoria line should be extended down from Brixton to West and East Croydon. )

[phil gollin]

Thank you, Phil, for stating your recollection of a Q1 on a long coal train through West Croydon.   I have been waiting for someone to confirm seeing one and being long, ie. more than 20 wagons, can you recall it snaking across the tracks at the bridge end of the station?   Alas, so far no photos have come to light but I have always thought the Q1s must have appeared as the Qs had been allocated earlier to Waddon Marsh duties, albeit general freight but could have performed any shunting duty whilst there. 

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Sorry didn't see this back in 2014 (!)  -  yes, I was waiting by the bay platform for a train to Mitcham when the Q1 came through snaking across.

[coline33]

Yes, Phil, please find us a Mayor of London with bags of money!!! Northern Line yes provided it goes via St.Helier. Now the Victoria Line was a product of the Abercombie plan for London after WW2 and is a mix of routes C and D. One these was to Croydon following the line of the 16/18 tram from Brixton. I recall that it was not progressed underground due to problems with underground water 'ponds' around Pollards Hill and undermining buildings at Thornton Heath Pond especially as the northern end of the station was under the State cinema now Granada. When the Victoria Line finally reached Brixton there was talk of taking it overground via the existing SR tracks into West and/or East Croydon. Personally I would have thought it better to extend it to Crystal Palace via West Norwood and reduce the bus services on the surface. These scenarios were part of the discussions I had with Peter Parker whilst he was BR Chairman Designate in 1979 but as with the then proposed Croydon tram system, the existence of a £400m. BR deficit delaying the development of the second generation of DMUs, like now there was and still is no money with only further shortfall in immediate prospect for TfL.

[phil-b259]

Yes, Phil, please find us a Mayor of London with bags of money!!! Northern Line yes provided it goes via St.Helier. Now the Victoria Line was a product of the Abercombie plan for London after WW2 and is a mix of routes C and D. One these was to Croydon following the line of the 16/18 tram from Brixton. I recall that it was not progressed underground due to problems with underground water 'ponds' around Pollards Hill and undermining buildings at Thornton Heath Pond especially as the northern end of the station was under the State cinema now Granada. When the Victoria Line finally reached Brixton there was talk of taking it overground via the existing SR tracks into West and/or East Croydon. Personally I would have thought it better to extend it to Crystal Palace via West Norwood and reduce the bus services on the surface. These scenarios were part of the discussions I had with Peter Parker whilst he was BR Chairman Designate in 1979 but as with the then proposed Croydon tram system, the existence of a £400m. BR deficit delaying the development of the second generation of DMUs, like now there was and still is no money with only further shortfall in immediate prospect for TfL.

I've always thought that the Northern line should be extended from Morden to Sutton.

 

( Also, the Victoria line should be extended down from Brixton to West and East Croydon. )

In case you have forgotten, both the Northern Line and the Victoria line are absolutely rammed and can in no way accommodate any additional passengers!

 

Please note that the reason TfL want the Crossrail 2 line to perform a dog leg via Tooting or Balham (rather than going straight from Wimbledon to Clapham) is to try and remove passengers from the Northern line.

 

As such extensions to either line are (and have been for a couple of decades at least) firmly off the agenda regardless of how much money TfL have!

 

(Note the extension to Battersea is being taken off the Kennington loop and effectively extends the west end branch of the Northern. Long term TfL have thoughts of going to Clapham with it but that requires CR2 to be open first to avoid any extension being swamped by National Rail passengers, plus the full split of the Northern current line into two totally separate lines and no mixing of trains between the City / West End / High Barnet / Edware)

Edited September 25, 2018 by phil-b259