RandyWales Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 The Cheaper DCC Sound thread has led to interesting debate. I'll kick this one off by suggesting a Virtual Sound Decoder coupled to onboard speakers via Bluetooth Audio Streaming (groan, not him again?) and backed up by computer controlled offboard speakers. Perhaps this thread can be pinned too? Randall Edited to add Tags Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Hi again.... To give a bit background to my latest post, a Virtual Sound Decoder (VSD) is being developed by an active member of the JMRI collective. The Java Model Railroad Interface is FREE and it can run on a variety of platforms such as Windows, Mac, tablet and phone. A beta version of the VSD is available on the JMRI website as part of the full package. Youtube Video of VSD here: JMRI encapsulates DCC control. Using the network interface of your DCC system, drive commands are sent to locomotives. Just as importantly, feedback from the locomotives is passed back to the JMRI system. With VSD, this will allow sounds to be synchronised with the locomotives running characteristics. Currently, this is fed to off-train speakers. My hope is that using Bluetooth Audio Stream, sound can also be onboard. My wish is for a system that can provide control and quality sound of the like demonstrated below in four videos created by ClickertyClack of this parish. I have read earlier threads which seem to indicate conflict around whether these videos are "advertisments" for a bespoke system and as such, they shouldn't be shown on RMweb. I don't know if there is bad blood here, but if we are nearer to a Cheaper and Better Quality system, then disregarding the technology used in them, these videos are very close to the ideal. Using the JMRI VSD and Bluetooth Audio Streaming perhaps it is achievable. Randall As you can see I've invested a lot of time on this subject in the last week - CLICKERTYCLACK YOUTUBE VIDEOS HERE: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 The next idea may be to eliminate the hardware for the sound the £100 DCC decoder, the control side of the DCC command station could be replaced by software running on a laptop or android device, the laptop could use its own sound channel facilities to the baseboard mounted external speakers, for the illusion of movement, then a stereo speaker system fade left to right and vice versa might do the trick.. i have long suspected the DCC command station plus booster could be dropped for a laptop plus programme plus booster setup, it could lead to a big saving of money Already possible with stuff you can get today, the software is free, and it works with surround sound, not stereo. As Paul keeps saying, its earlier in the thread, but folks seem not to want to read his posts ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I don't know if there is bad blood here, Based on the evidence in this thread, where on earth did you come up with that idea? As you can see I've invested a lot of time on this subject in the last week - A week? It takes longer than that to creat a single sound project. Get yer sleeves rolled up, man! Ha ha! Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 To give a bit background to my latest post, a Virtual Sound Decoder (VSD) is being developed by an active member of the JMRI collective. Ah that will be Mark (Twinsdad) then! Using the JMRI VSD and Bluetooth Audio Streaming perhaps it is achievable. Unequivocally YES! On the first version of my DC Sound system, somewhat amusingly it had been suggested or 'second guessed' that the onboard component was achieved using FM! Not so. It was in fact utilising Bluetooth. I am very pleased to say I got to know Twinsdad quite well during the development stage of the last version of VSD. I cobbled together the Turbo 645 out of a 1.5meg mp3 for us to use during the development stage. Not the best I know but it served its purpose and Mark decided to include it for the release version. One aspect of that incarnation I am really proud of is the way the 645 ramps up to a set speed step and bypasses each idle phase (notch) sample on the way. Same when you ramp down. Also it is good fun playing the throttle by ramping down to bottom and then back up to top notch again as per prototype practice. However I am not sure whether that feature was included in the last release. With clever adjustment of speed curves you can ramp up the engine revs to a given notch ( as I said bypassing notch idles on the way ) allowing the engine to play catch up! Good fun! Can a Loksound/Zimo do that? My hope is that using Bluetooth Audio Stream, sound can also be onboard. And why not? Mine is. And its 44kz 16bit Stereo....................... CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 One aspect of that incarnation I am really proud of is the way the 645 ramps up to a set speed step and bypasses each idle phase (notch) as in Loksound/Zimo manner. Same when you ramp down. Also it is good fun playing the throttle by ramping down to bottom and then back up to top notch again. With clever adjustment of speed curves you can ramp up the engine revs to a given notch ( as I said bypassing notch idles on the way ) allowing the engine to play catch up! Good fun! Can a Loksound/Zimo do that? Well, of course, you are not comparing like for like so the question is a bit pointless. But for the sake of your education, both LokSound and ZIMO are indeed perfectly capable of this fairly simple trick. And not by pratting about with speed curves either, just running locos and throttle normally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I was interested to find a section on under-baseboard sound in my 1998 book on DCC by Ames, Friberg and Loiseaux, suggesting using the decoder's address as part of a consist to co-ordinate it with loco movement. Amusingly, it also describes driving a Hallmark electronic greeting card with DCC and playing your own sound through its soundcard and speaker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Well, of course, you are not comparing like for like so the question is a bit pointless. me, But for the sake of your education, both LokSound and ZIMO are indeed perfectly capable of this fairly simple trick. And not by pratting about with speed curves either, just running locos and throttle normally. Forgive me, are you stating that both those chips do not play through each notch or idle sample when throttling up/down? I always thought that they played the relative notch idle or all sound segments in sequential order until a given speed step was reached.Or it did last I played with a Zimo chip. cc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Forgive me, are you stating that both those chips do not play through each notch or idle sample when throttling up/down? I always thought that they played the relative notch idle sample until a given speed step was reached.Or it did last I played with a Zimo chip. cc No. I am saying they are capable of what you describe, ie continuous ramp up (or spool down) to any notch required, as well as being able to play a succession of notches (up or down), depending on what the operator wishes to achieve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Getting back to the original premise, I like my locos to run and sound the same whatever layout they happen to be on. For me that means on-board sound, totally portable and self contained. I suspect we will see cheaper sound decoders (there are existing cheaper alternatives) and better quality high-end sound decoders for the more discerning, but not both in one package, and not influenced by what may be happening around layout based sound. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Pshewwww! Completely over my head - Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I was interested to find a section on under-baseboard sound in my 1998 book on DCC by Ames, Friberg and Loiseaux, suggesting using the decoder's address as part of a consist to co-ordinate it with loco movement. Amusingly, it also describes driving a Hallmark electronic greeting card with DCC and playing your own sound through its soundcard and speaker. And when you blow the horn it squarks 'Be my Valentine!' Ha ha. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Pshewwww! Completely over my head - Randall What is? Your Hat? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 What is? Your Hat? Yep! A STEEL one..... Runs for cover.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted December 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2013 To give a bit background to my latest post, a Virtual Sound Decoder (VSD) is being developed by an active member of the JMRI collective. Ah that will be Mark (Twinsdad) then! Using the JMRI VSD and Bluetooth Audio Streaming perhaps it is achievable. Unequivocally YES! On the first version of my DC Sound system, somewhat amusingly it had been suggested or 'second guessed' that the onboard component was achieved using FM! Not so. It was in fact utilising Bluetooth. I am very pleased to say I got to know Twinsdad quite well during the development stage of the last version of VSD. I cobbled together the Turbo 645 out of a 1.5meg mp3 for us to use during the development stage. Not the best I know but it served its purpose and Mark decided to include it for the release version. One aspect of that incarnation I am really proud of is the way the 645 ramps up to a set speed step and bypasses each idle phase (notch) sample on the way. Same when you ramp down. Also it is good fun playing the throttle by ramping down to bottom and then back up to top notch again as per prototype practice. However I am not sure whether that feature was included in the last release. With clever adjustment of speed curves you can ramp up the engine revs to a given notch ( as I said bypassing notch idles on the way ) allowing the engine to play catch up! Good fun! Can a Loksound/Zimo do that? My hope is that using Bluetooth Audio Stream, sound can also be onboard. And why not? Mine is. And its 44kz 16bit Stereo....................... CC So, im confused, are you saying you have on-board sound with a bluetooth receiver and speaker setup? inside the loco? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 No. I am saying they are capable of what you describe, ie continuous ramp up (or spool down) to any notch required, as well as being able to play a succession of notches (up or down), depending on what the operator wishes to achieve. I think maybe you misunderstand me Paul. Yes a Zimo or Loksound will continuous ramp BUT do they not play through the idle/notch (F1, F2) sound slots on the way albeit unlooped? What I have described misses out these F1 - F whatever looped sections entirely. when ramping up/ down to a throttle setting on VSD. CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 So, im confused, are you saying you have on-board sound with a bluetooth receiver and speaker setup? inside the loco? YES 44khz 16bit Stereo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted December 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2013 Surely it's almost immaterial how good or not so good decoders are if onboard speakers are not up to the task, which to my ears they're not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Surely it's almost immaterial how good or not so good decoders are if onboard speakers are not up to the task, which to my ears they're not? I think it's the fact that the onboard sound is complimented by offb...bu66er it....I'll leave someone else who knows explain... My head hurts.... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted December 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2013 YES 44khz 16bit Stereo Sounds interesting, could we see a picture of the setup? Surely it's almost immaterial how good or not so good decoders are if onboard speakers are not up to the task, which to my ears they're not? yes in a way a sound system is only as good as the speaker, but define up to the task? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted December 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2013 but define up to the task? Basically sound files are recorded from a prototype, put into the format of the decoder, put through a speaker and end up with a very limited likeness to said prototype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted December 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2013 Well i see your point Phil each to there own as they say Its a valid point but another thread i guess. Back on the thread im quite intregued by clicketyclacks setup... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Basically sound files are recorded from a prototype, put into the format of the decoder, put through a speaker and end up with a very limited likeness to said prototype. Hi Phil... Have you had a look at Clickertyclacks videos? I know it's hard to determine from a Youtube video, but it's still miles in front of what is accepted as today's standard. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Sounds interesting, could we see a picture of the setup? yes in a way a sound system is only as good as the speaker, but define up to the task? he links Have a listen and look at the basics of the system on the links provided by the OP. Although built for DC the audio software/hardware aspects were coupled to VSD although not available in this format from JMRI Sweetdreams Gentlemen. Bedtime. cc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted December 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2013 Thats not what i was after I was interested in seeing a picture of the bluetooth setup in the loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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