Cheaper AND better quality DCC sound

[trisonic]

You can fool the ears with bass sounds (it being very difficult to “place” them). So logically you could have a single 12” woofer, say, under the layout producing all the bass for all the locos in use.

Btw can someone advise just how the DCC sound files are actually recorded at source? Has anyone on here experience of this?

 

Best, Pete.

[ZiderHead]

If Bachmann are developing alternatives, it must be because they recognise the fact that expensive licencing fees for DCC soundchips are eating into their profits.

 

Isn't NMRA DCC an open standard? Which means no licensing issues or fees?

[RandyWales]

Isn't NMRA DCC an open standard? Which means no licensing issues or fees?

Maybe, but do you really believe that soundchip manufacturers would let Bachmann and the like use their modules in proprietary loycomotives without having a licencing agreement?

The Standard may be "open" but the hardware isn't.

Otherwise they'd be giving it away for free....

Randall

[RandyWales]

If we are talking the size of speaker that would fit in a loco then this would probably only tell you how good (or bad) the speaker is.

If you want to compare the sound quality between a sample from a decoder chip and compare with a Bluetooth transmitted sample you really need to play them back through a decent sound reproduction system (Hi Fi).

I have a QED Bluetooth system connected to my HiFi and the sound quality of MP3 music from my smartphone played back through this is remarkably good. Can't say the same playing the MP3 music back through the Veho Bluetooth device from the smartphone, but then what do you expect from a 30mm speaker in a 50mm plastic tube.

When I get some spare time I'll try connecting up the output of a sound decoder to the HiFi, that should give a good indication of the quality of the recorded samples (and or the the internal sample playback system and amplifier).

Just asking....

It's been a while since you posted the above....

Did you run your comparison tests?

Randall

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

 

Btw can someone advise just how the DCC sound files are actually recorded at source? Has anyone on here experience of this?

 

Most sounds are recorded at CD quality and worked on as to frequency responses in a sound editing programme. Once edited they can then be converted to the frequency and bit sampling rate used by the decoder. These are usually very low fi quality and some expertise is needed to ensure that all the recordings are satisfactory played back and at the right place in the scheme of things.

 

Most of the sounds in a sound project are actually very short. It is the decoder that interprets throttle movement and plays the appropriate file and/or file sequence for that.

 

I use a shotgun microphone of high quality and a Sony MiniDisc.

[leopardml2341]

Most of the sounds in a sound project are actually very short. It is the decoder that interprets throttle movement and plays the appropriate file and/or file sequence for that.

 

 

Hello Dave,

Are the throttle points at which the decoder plays the 'relevant' sounds editable by the dcc user* or only the sound project compiler* ?

 

Rgds

 

Edited to add *people not devices :-)

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Hello Dave,

Are the throttle points at which the decoder plays the 'relevant' sounds editable by the dcc user* or only the sound project compiler* ?

 

Rgds

 

Edited to add *people not devices :-)

 

I wouldn't attempt to change any settings in a sound project without having that sound project actually loaded in a Lokprogrammer with attendant software.

 

Obviously, this is not likely unless you construct your own projects.

 

Very often the construction of a sound project might involve compromise as to when each sound sequence is played. Changing that compromise will involve many hours of work.

 

It is more likely that changing your throttle technique will produce a different effect.

 

It is also important that you are using the throttle table from your command station. This will involve a change in CV29 to ensure that you are using 28/128 steps rather than Vstart/Vmid/Vmax which is default. Some command stations make this change automatically if you select a 4 digit address but not all and it is possible that the decoder was set up that way.

 

Changing any CV's above 100 in any modern sound decoder is a fraught exercise and, in my own experience, I never actually knew which CV's I was changing when I was changing the parameters of my own sound projects as the GUI didn't actually tell me.

 

There are a few souls on here who might well know all the CV's to change if you asked them directly but it might be best to have an advanced session on checking speed tables and throttle technique. After that you can post here as to what you want in relation to what you are getting and/or send the chip away for a reblow with either the original supplier or another project compiler who has what you want already programmed in to a project.

[porkie]

Not so. Again, please take the time to read what I've already written.

 

Moving on, and on the subject of short circuit protection, I think the answer is simple. You just put a diode of suitable capacity on the -ve wire from the track to the chip. That would block any +ve current flowing from a short circuit back to the valuable chip. If anybody thinks this is inadequate please say. If it is adequate it shows how desperate the two manufacturers' responses set out by a previous respondent are. Bordering on the naughty, but you can't blame them. Anyway I'm glad this issue was flagged up, thank you. HOWEVER, nobody has come back with any help on my original question, i.e. what slide potentiometers would be suitable to fade the sound signal from the under-baseboard sound chip to strategically placed speakers. Ron

To prevent shorts on my set up, I use a two pole rotary switch

[RandyWales]

Hi again....

Just a quick update to let members know that Bachmann, no less, are introducing a Bluetooth Wireless Control system that also sends sounds to onboard speakers using Bluetooth.

If Bachmann are developing alternatives, it must be because they recognise the fact that expensive licencing fees for DCC soundchips are eating into their profits.

It is pretty crude at the moment, but maybe this is something that will make people sit up and take notice.

I am already using quality samples through Bluetooth, and it sounds brilliant (and dirt cheap).

http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/ihobby2014/html5/index.html?page=1

http://bluerailtrains.com/intro.cfm

Thanks to Shortliner and others in the Continental/Overseas thread for keeping an eye on developements on other shores.

Randall

Posted on Youtube on 22nd October 2014

Randall

[RandyWales]

And this....

Randall

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This truly is ground breaking and deserves its own thread. I do appreciate that this thread has used the Blue Tooth concept but if i understand the videos, Bachmann have fitted all the hardware needed into the loco which is somewhat more than this thread has offered so far.

 

On a more sanguine note, i notice that the videos do NOT claim to be compatible with existing DCC command stations although the idea of continuous 16volt power to the track is mentioned.

 

I also wonder if sound is de rigeur for this EZ App system or whether it will also just operate the loco without sound.

 

No mention is made of sound quality ( bit rate etc ) either.

 

Nevertheless it is very interesting but the title of this thread might not be appropriate since price is not mentioned, quality is not yet established and DCC might NOT be involved at all.

 

If there is a retro fit option for all DCC equipped locos then I can see this being pretty massive.

If someone starts a proper thread for this new development I will ensure that it goes sticky as soon as I see it or am advised of it.

[pheaton]

From the video dave I would say that its just DCC on another "carrier" the core principles are the same....im intrigued though as to how the modelling world would react to it....I can see major layout owners saying....weve just invested x amount of pounds in DCC why should we switch to Bluetooth when really other than a direct pc interface which is already available on DCC, there's no operational advantage I can see..... without being backwards compatible with DCC I guess the model railway world needs to vote with there feet...

 

As regards sound even Bluetooth v4 is only 24mbits per second at its most optimum range if look at the real world and divide that by a factor of 8 your looking at a real-world throughput of 3 megabytes per second  I cant see it possible being able to run more than 4 or 5 locos with sound at any one time.........

 

but however im sure the DC faithful were saying the same when DCC came out....in fact I knew they were....

 

however I assume im right in saying that you would still be bound by the amplification and audio processing capabilities of the bluetooth receiver....in which case the only advantage it has is the fact that it does not rely on local storage....it's still likely to be bound by amount of channels and wattage range....

 

are Bachmann the only people looking into this? or are European manufacturers following similar lines?

 

I would personally also add that in my opinion DCC has gone beyond the potential to be a zero1 type folly.....if that were the case then this would be a serious threat to DCC but I can see the cost being detrimental to the take up....esp as its not compatible with DCC

[Waverley47708]

 

I'd also be interesred to know whether multiple loco classes can be represented on one sound chip, and if so, how many.

 

Colin, if it answers your question, I think the original post from 40 something referred to a system where he had 4 loco classes on one chip.

 

Admittedly 40 something is getting nearer 50 something and this topic has evolved a bit from his original post as other suggestions have appeared.

[Waverley47708]

Someone asked about cost. Had a look at the Blue train site, there looks a lot of components on the chip (if that is the correct term).

 

Looks to be an interesting development, although I assume the sound comes out of the phone or whatever device used to control it. As such the sound on a big layout may not follow the train.

[SimonME46]

I'm pondering RR&Co with their 4D sound. Cheaper and better sound potential than lots of sound equipped locos..http://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm

[Alan Kettlewell]

I'm pondering RR&Co with their 4D sound. Cheaper and better sound potential than lots of sound equipped locos..http://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm

I've had +4D Sound for a few years and think it'sgreat. There's a steep learning curve as you need to source your own sounds, break them into small sound bytes and get to grips with Freiwald's 'Train Animator' software. It's quite hard to get the syncronisation accurate, but well worth it in the end as the sound is fantastic coming from the all round surround system in your trainroom and rather amazingly 'follows' the train around the layout. The software is expensive, but the savings come from not needing a sound decoder in your locos, plus you can develop a sound project for one loco, and very easily develop a similar project, but slightly tweaked, to suit individual locos of the same type for example. No good though for those who want their locos to be portable between different layouts.

 

Just my two pennerth - I think it's great and enjoy the challenge of making up sound projects - be aware though - it's catching, sometimes frustrating and enormously time consuming.

 

Regards

Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Simon,

 

If you're interested in the +4DSound software you might like this short video of a OO Hornby 8F I made some time ago.  I put together the sound project using Freiwald's 'Train Animator' software.  Admittedly the chuffs go out of sinc as the speed increases and I never did get around to making the final tweaks to improve it.  However it does show what can be achieved if you want to spend the time (and the cash) on making up sound projects.  All the sounds are genuine recordings which are then broken down into small 'sound bytes' then brought together in hopefully realistic way - this is where the time, effort and skill comes in.  I'm just an amateur but I was quite pleased with this effort as a first go.

 

Note: There is no decoder in this loco.  All the sound is played through a 5.1 surround sound speaker system installed in the train room (my shed).  The loco is tracked as it progresses round the room by using feedback encoders - in my case simple reed switches in the track triggered by a magnet fixed under the loco.  As the train is tracked the +4DSound software transmits the sound from one speaker to the next using 'spatial sound' - in just the same way as stereo sound seems to travel from one speaker to the other across the room - except in this case the sound travels around all 4 speakers following the loco as it moves. 

 

In addition you can apply attenuation levels from 0 to 100% so you can have the software lower or mute the sound through tunnels etc.  Also the 'Train Animator' software is great for producing stationary sounds.  For example, on my layout (dismantled now) I had station announcements, cows & sheep sounds in fields, car horns, boat horns and seagulls in the wharf area, bells coming from a church on the hill and even a 'Sally Army' band playing in the town.  All these events can be triggered automatically from various reed switches around the layout or by buttons and switches in the layout control (on a laptop).

 

All in all, a great system which adds another dimension to our great hobby.          

 

 

 

Regards

Alan

[hucknall byron]

Very interesting topic and as usual the knowledge of the posters on here leaves me in awe and feeling a little less than adequate. However to those who decry dcc sound as "not being realistic" I would offer my thoughts on the matter. I am 67 years old and saw pretty much all the steam classes in a working environment. The effect on my brain caused by this exposure has through a hobby transported me back in time, the only thing I really wanted in the first place.My Bachmann jubilee with sound for example triggers happy spotting memories which I find very enjoyable. Realistic? well the model is only a foot long and doesn't blow smoke and steam either but I still love it for what it is a model enhanced by sound.