Cheaper AND better quality DCC sound

[Guest 40-something]

Hi Folks

 

Pauliebanger suggested I post this project my friends and I have worked on to create cheaper DCC sound.

 

Our modelling group, 12AD MRG, have 3 layouts covering a Caledonian Railway country station, a BR steam MPD and a pre-tops BR goods yard.  We wanted a route to cheaper DCC sound and fellow member Bill Auld came up with the idea of wiring a sound chip into the track circuit feeding speakers mounted on the baseboards.

 

We approached Paul Chetter (pauliebanger) at the Perth show this year and explained what we were looking to do.  Paul suggested that he could programme the Zimo chips with distinct sound.  We agreed on LMS 2 Cyl, LNER 3 Cyl and Sulzer Type 2 diesel, an extra surprise that Paul loaded onto the chip was the EE Type 1 (Class 20) sounds.

 

The chip is wired into a piece of vero board, connected to a cheap motor and gearbox to provide a load.  The power to the chip comes from the track power bus and the sound signals go to the speakers, one mounted in the pier of a road bridge and one in a good shed.  Essentially this give sound for the majority of our loco's.

 

Soundboard

 

When running a loco, it is run in a consist with the sound chip, which responds to the throttle position.  This give the impression of sound coming from the loco itself.

 

Whilst the sound files do not have all the features of individual sound chips, the main ones are there and a suitable for our layouts.  The chip is mounted on the vero board so it can be moved from layout to layout and slotted in place into a PC type socket.

 

Plugged-in

 

Thanks for your help Paul!

[CloggyDog]

Interesting idea, a bit similar to one Lance Mindheim trialled and mentioned in his blog (scroll down to April 2012) a year or so back, though he used a set of headphones, rather than layout-mounted speakers.

 

What speakers are you using?

[RandyWales]

Hi Joe....

Interesting....very interesting...

The idea of pairing a non-sound loco chip with the circuit board sound chip as a "consist" is simple, but brilliant.

Can you explain how the sounds for different loco types are programmed onto the same chip?

Any electronics geniuses out there who could superimpose the sound signals through filters via the tracks to onboard speakers?

 

Or via miniature WiFi/Bluetooth circuits?

 

Randall

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This is titled as 'cheaper'. Can we have some detailed costings please?

[Guest 40-something]

Interesting idea, a bit similar to one Lance Mindheim trialled and mentioned in his blog (scroll down to April 2012) a year or so back, though he used a set of headphones, rather than layout-mounted speakers.

 

What speakers are you using?

 

Thats very interesting, great for home use to avoid upsetting the domestic authorities!

 

We're just using speakers obtained from DCC Supplies, 4ohm, wired in parallel.

 

The sound level at the exhibition at the weekend was just right, maybe a tweak to increase sound a little via an amplifier will be looked into

 

Hi Joe....

Interesting....very interesting...

The idea of pairing a non-sound loco chip with the circuit board sound chip as a "consist" is simple, but brilliant.

Can you explain how the sounds for different loco types are programmed onto the same chip?

Any electronics geniuses out there who could superimpose the sound signals through filters via the tracks to onboard speakers?

 

Or via miniature WiFi circuits?

 

Randall

 

Hi Randall

 

We switch between the sounds by altering the value in the CV table, quick and easy to do.

[Guest 40-something]

This is titled as 'cheaper'. Can we have some detailed costings please?

Hi David

 

All in all for the chip, speakers, motor/gear box and the other bits an bobs we had change from £120!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Hi David

 

All in all for the chip, speakers, motor/gear box and the other bits an bobs we had change from £120!

 

Thanks for this and if i read it correctly, that covers potentially four locos. Is that playing one at a time? How much was spent on decoders in the locos? When you want to change loco, do you need to de-consist the sound decoder and re-consist it with the new selected loco?

[RandyWales]

Hi again....

The more I think about this, the more I like the possibilities for my 7mm loft layout....especially after reading Lance Mindheim's blog.

 

For one thing, I might be able to "sound-enable" all my Heljan 7mm locos using a single chip intended for 4mm rather than spend £170 per loco on sound chips.

 

I'd imagine a triple consist could be built using a second sound chip which could be programmed with ancilliary sounds such as flange squeal etc

 

Feeding speakers or headphones through a cheap mini-mixer one could even include ambient railway sounds fed by an iPod-like device.

 

Thanks for posting this....Much appreciated.

Randall

[Guest 40-something]

Thanks for this and if i read it correctly, that covers potentially four locos. Is that playing one at a time? How much was spent on decoders in the locos? When you want to change loco, do you need to de-consist the sound decoder and re-consist it with the new selected loco?

 

Hi David

 

With my fleet, it covers 4 steam loco's and 7 diesels!  Each loco has either a basic Hornby or Bachmann decoder so talking £12-15 per loco.

 

At the moment I clear the consist then set up a new one, but as the sound is constantly on, there are no interuptions.  It only takes around 10 seconds to clear and set up a new consist with my DCC system (NCE).  Im sure there is a way I can drop 1 loco and add another, I'll need to look into that.

 

Hi again....

The more I think about this, the more I like the possibilities for my 7mm loft layout....especially after reading Lance Mindheim's blog.

 

For one thing, I might be able to "sound-enable" all my Heljan 7mm locos using a single chip intended for 4mm rather than spend £170 per loco on sound chips.

 

I'd imagine a triple consist could be built using a second sound chip which could be programmed with ancilliary sounds such as flange squeal etc

 

Feeding speakers or headphones through a cheap mini-mixer one could even include ambient railway sounds fed by an iPod-like device.

 

Thanks for posting this....Much appreciated.

Randall

WIth the chip Paul programmed for us, flange squeal is available on a function as is brake squeal, horns, whistles etc etc. I guess the possibilities are endless!

[pauliebanger]

Thanks for this and if i read it correctly, that covers potentially four locos. Is that playing one at a time? How much was spent on decoders in the locos? When you want to change loco, do you need to de-consist the sound decoder and re-consist it with the new selected loco?

 

Zimo decoders can have multiple sound projects, multiple locos, all on one decoder, even mixing steam and diesel if you like. Obviously, only one can be played at one time, but that's still several more than any other single sound decoder can manage.

 

(theoretically, Digitrax could do this too but they are short on memory, motor power, sound channels, amp power, etc to be a serious contender).  

 

 

There is another way this could be done without using on-board decoders or consisting. We discussed this, but it did not suit their needs.

 

Take the motor output from the decoder and use it to feed DC power to the layout and run locos on analogue. The layout only has one loco running at a time so that would work OK.

 

But this module is to be shared between several layouts, so although there are 'only' four loco types sharing the cost of a single decoder, when you take into account all the permutations of locos and layouts it becomes a really inexpensive option.

 

Of course, this will not suit everyone or fit in with all requirements or all layouts, but I have other ideas coming along

 

Heck, they save you money even if you just put one in a single loco! Ha ha.

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

Hi again....

The more I think about this, the more I like the possibilities for my 7mm loft layout....especially after reading Lance Mindheim's blog.

 

For one thing, I might be able to "sound-enable" all my Heljan 7mm locos using a single chip intended for 4mm rather than spend £170 per loco on sound chips.

 

I'd imagine a triple consist could be built using a second sound chip which could be programmed with ancilliary sounds such as flange squeal etc

 

Feeding speakers or headphones through a cheap mini-mixer one could even include ambient railway sounds fed by an iPod-like device.

 

Thanks for posting this....Much appreciated.

Randall

 

Randall

 

On this one decoder are the engine sounds for all 4 locos. The only sounds missing are the start-up and shut down for the two diesels. These were not required for these layouts and it makes operation easier without them. 

 

There are, in addition, 36 other sounds loaded:

 

4 Chime whistles

5 LNER whistles

3 Stanier Hooters

4 Class 20 Horns

4 Class 25 Horns

Flange squeal

Brake squeal

Cylinder blow down

Safety valves lifted

Coal shovelling

Air brake pump

Various air releases

Buffering

 

And a partridge in a pear tree!

 

So, no need for a second decoder to expand ancillary sounds, but each decoder 'module' can have several other locos. If opting to continue with DCC, each module can be separately consisted with the target loco, or indeed, with each other.

 

You see a use in 7mm to save cash and that's a perfectly valid angle.

 

But I think this would be one way of solving the space issues for on-board sound in N, T and Z gauges.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

 

[pauliebanger]

 

Pauliebanger suggested I post this project my friends and I have worked on to create cheaper DCC sound.

 

 

Maybe some enterprising Exhibition Managers will offer you some gigs as they are often looking for something novel.

 

Good luck

 

Paul

[porkie]

Ive got my N gauge layout wired up as Paul suggested.

and use OO gauge sound chips and use the motor wires to feed the track. I also used DPDT switches on the track feed wires to prevent a back feed to the other chips when not in use.

 

This works a treat in N gauge but limited to run one loco at a time.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This thread has merit for some layouts that only want to run one loco at a time with sound but have other locos. Although this 'one at a time' is a limiting factor that eliminates the concept from most DCC converts i can readily see that it represents a considerable saving within the limitations.

 

I have made it a sticky

[Guest 40-something]

Maybe some enterprising Exhibition Managers will offer you some gigs as they are often looking for something novel.

 

Good luck

 

Paul

That would be good Paul!

[RandyWales]

Randall

 

On this one decoder are the engine sounds for all 4 locos.....

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul...

Thanks for the advice....

Could you please advise which Zimo decoder would be best for this project, and how I would program the required sounds?

I initially envisage having two modules rather than be restricted to 'one at a time'.

I will probably use quality headphones rather than speakers.

My plan is also to record other locos idling away, and play them on an MP3 player.

A mini-mixer will allow me to control the sound level of the decoders in relation to these background sounds.

The fact that a departing train will continue to be audible after the loco itself has stopped in the fiddle yard also seems quite feasible.

regards

Randall

[pauliebanger]

 

Randall,

 

My responses within your text:

 

Thanks for the advice....

 

Please be aware that there are other ways of achieving this from the modest to the ridiculously expensive. I'm not promoting this method, but I'm happy to give any advice I can so that you can decide against if it doesn't suit, or you get the best from it if you choose to adopt it.

Could you please advise which Zimo decoder would be best for this project,

 

Any of them will do, but since you will not be using the power on a large motor, the least expensive will be an MX645 wired but without a plug.

 

and how I would program the required sounds?

 

If you need to ask this question, and you only intend to have a couple of decoders, the best advice I can give is to get someone who knows how to do it for you.

It's not that it is difficult once you understand the sound programming software, but you will need to buy extra kit to load the sounds to your decoder which reduces the cost savings you find appealing.

 

I initially envisage having two modules rather than be restricted to 'one at a time'.

 

OK, that definitely nails it to DCC operations. You will need to arrange suitable mixing for this to work, I think.

 

I will probably use quality headphones rather than speakers.

My plan is also to record other locos idling away, and play them on an MP3 player.

 

Two decoders plus MP3 player ambient sound through headphones? I suspect that your brain will lose the 'connection' between the movement and the sound and may give an impression of locos moving to a general soundtrack rather than syncing to individual locos.

 

Also consider this. Take this from someone who records locos 'up close and personal'. If you spend a few hours in a real diesel depot you may find you get a headache and ringing in the ears. Apart from using ear defenders, there's not that much you can do about that. Again, in real life, one's brain 'tunes out' the background sounds so that you listen more intently to the thing you are concentrating on at the time.

 

But in your model world, you can choose how many and which types of locos/sounds playing at any one time. Now, you might think this strange coming from a committed soundman, but you might just find that what on paper appears to mirror the prototypical world, may not pan out that way. At least with speakers, you have a chance to move your ears in relation to the sound source. A pair of 'cans' strapped to your ears will be unrelenting. Of course there's always the 'Mute' option!

A mini-mixer will allow me to control the sound level of the decoders in relation to these background sounds.

 

Agreed. See above.

The fact that a departing train will continue to be audible after the loco itself has stopped in the fiddle yard also seems quite feasible.

Yes, quite straightforward.

 

You could also just fade the sound as the loco moves out of view.

 

This is utterly simple with all Zimo sound decoders, regardless of whether the original author included it or not.

 

1. Set an F key as the control: CV313 = X where X is the number (1-28) of the F key you have chosen - remember to use one not already assigned to something else. (add 100 to the value to invert the function)

2. Set the duration of the fade: CV314 = Y where Y is a value in the range 1-255, each unit being worth 1/10 of a second. So, for a fade from full volume to silence in 10 seconds, enter value 100.

Good luck, PM me if you wish.

 

Kind regards

 

Paul

[RandyWales]

Thanks Paul...

Plenty of food for thought....

 

Perhaps I have got a screw loose (only one?), but I still think that using Bluetooth to stream audio to an onboard speaker could be an option to extend this idea, especially because of the high cost of 7mm sound decoders.

Bluetooth is a mature technology and I've watched plenty of Youtube footage this week demonstrating the technology in use for similar applications. Bluetooth TX/RX modules can be obtained for less than £5.

In theory, a single 4mm Zimo module as described could feed four locomotives - one at a time, obviously - with the audio output being switched through to the selected Bluetooth pair by a rotary switch.

Four modules could feed 16 locos, with four different locos being active at any time.

If I can source appropriate hardware, I will be giving it a go.

Randall

[PhilH]

Very interesting!

 

Thanks to all for posting this, and please do post the results of the bluetooth 'experiment'.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

 

Thanks Paul...

Plenty of food for thought....

 but I still think that using Bluetooth to stream audio to an onboard speaker could be an option

 

You would not be the first. The big problem with Bluetooth is that it lacks power to drive a speaker that you would hear. Same applies with wireless speaker connection on your HiFi. Lot of power needed. Power handling is OK but not with the miniaturisation that is forced on us by the need to fit into small locos; smaller than yours. The reason that 7mm specific sound decoders cost more is that they can handle a good deal more power than the 00 size ones.

[RandyWales]

You would not be the first. The big problem with Bluetooth is that it lacks power to drive a speaker that you would hear. Same applies with wireless speaker connection on your HiFi. Lot of power needed. Power handling is OK but not with the miniaturisation that is forced on us by the need to fit into small locos; smaller than yours. The reason that 7mm specific sound decoders cost more is that they can handle a good deal more power than the 00 size ones.

 

Hi Dave...

I am not an electronics expert by any stretch, but by simply researching how Bluetooth works, I have discovered at least one component that may fit the bill - an integrated Bluetooth Stereo Amplifier that can power 16ohm speakers directly, not simply headphone-sized speakers. The module is the size of a 4mm decoder, powered by 3v DC and costs about £11.

If any forum members wish to pool knowledge to fast track research, maybe we can all benefit.

Randall

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

, I have discovered at least one component that may fit the bill - an integrated Bluetooth Stereo Amplifier that can power 16ohm speakers directly, not simply headphone-sized speakers. The module is the size of a 4mm decoder, powered by 3v DC and costs about £11.

 

Interesting and would love to have a link to that.

[RandyWales]

Interesting and would love to have a link to that.

Hi Dave....

I'm not going to be precious about this and try to take advantage - this site is about sharing....

Early days yet, but if it works, the price of sound chips could plummet in response :-)

 

So...

 

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11678

 

I've read the tutorials, and this module should be next to easy to wire up even without the breakout board. Most of the connections would be redundant for our use.

 

I think it'll be suitable. Read the tutorials for full information.

 

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/rn-52-bluetooth-hookup-guide

 

The price is cheaper elsewhere.

 

If our DCC / Electronics experts could review it and say Yay or Nay!

Of course, I am open to being shot down with no hard feelings.

After all, I do have a few loose screws.

Randall

[RandyWales]

Hi again....

To avoid total exhaustion on my part in having to do further research.....how long does the decoder re-program process take?

I presume that they are pre-existing sound files that are just loaded like saving a computer file?

 

The reason I ask is to establish whether a decoder can be re-programmed in short order. It makes even further economic sense.

Randall

[Talltim]

An idea that occurred to me while reading this thread is that

A: having sound offboard allows for far bigger and better speakers

B: could you consist a sound fitted loco with a static sound chip with a bigger speaker and get the sounds to synchronise? Gives you the movement of the sound source with the loco but with more bass umph. A bit like a subwoofer