Decline of the 4 Sub

[robertcwp]

Here is a chart showing the number of 4 Sub units, defined as the 10 'Sheba' units and the 217 post-war all-steel units, in stock at the end of each of the years shown. 

 

4-SUB_withdrawals by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

This was compiled based on withdrawal dates given in the SEG book 'The 4 Sub Story'.

 

Prior to 1971, the only withdrawals were as a result of accidents. 

 

The 50-unit reduction in 1976 was largely due to the major service cuts in April of that year.  There were more cuts in 1981-2 and earlier there had been some reductions in 1972-4.  When the last of the pre-war stock was withdrawn in September 1972, there will still around 60 4 Vep units remaining to be delivered, so these effectively replaced Subs, some by displacing 2 Hap units to be downgraded to Sap and others directly (eg Guildford New Line).  The 508 fleet was in service by 1981 although the impact of its introduction on the remaining Sub fleet was blurred by a combination of service cuts and the restoration of 2 Sap units to 2 Hap and their transfer away from suburban services to bolster the main line fleet whilst 4 Cep units were being refurbished. 

 

When the first 455 units entered service in May 1983, only 32 Subs remained and these had all gone by early September.

[bécasse]

A significant factor in the reduction in SUB numbers in 1976 was the withdrawal of the "Bulleid" 2-HAP units from the CD Coastway services with the April TT change and their transfer as 2-SAP units to CD suburban services, displacing 4-SUBs. 

[robertcwp]

A significant factor in the reduction in SUB numbers in 1976 was the withdrawal of the "Bulleid" 2-HAP units from the CD Coastway services with the April TT change and their transfer as 2-SAP units to CD suburban services, displacing 4-SUBs. 

Indeed it was, but the 36 2-car units transferred only equated to 18 Subs, whereas 48 were withdrawn in April 1976.  Compared to the May 1975 timetable (itself reduced compared to earlier years) in April 1976 following the extra cuts made after the timetables and carriage workings had been issued, there were, for example at least five fewer suburban trains on the main line side from Waterloo between 17.00 and 18.00 (one each to Hampton Court, Chessington and the Epsom line and two to Teddington via Kingston) plus reductions in the peak shoulder hours and in the morning peak.  Other lines also suffered cuts. 

[Strathwood]

Here is a chart showing the number of 4 Sub units, defined as the 10 'Sheba' units and the 217 post-war all-steel units, in stock at the end of each of the years shown. 

 

 

This was compiled based on withdrawal dates given in the SEG book 'The 4 Sub Story'.

 

Prior to 1971, the only withdrawals were as a result of accidents. 

 

The 50-unit reduction in 1976 was largely due to the major service cuts in April of that year.  There were more cuts in 1981-2 and earlier there had been some reductions in 1972-4.  When the last of the pre-war stock was withdrawn in September 1972, there will still around 60 4 Vep units remaining to be delivered, so these effectively replaced Subs, some by displacing 2 Hap units to be downgraded to Sap and others directly (eg Guildford New Line).  The 508 fleet was in service by 1981 although the impact of its introduction on the remaining Sub fleet was blurred by a combination of service cuts and the restoration of 2 Sap units to 2 Hap and their transfer away from suburban services to bolster the main line fleet whilst 4 Cep units were being refurbished. 

 

When the first 455 units entered service in May 1983, only 32 Subs remained and these had all gone by early September.

I recall making a melancholy visit one Sunday to Micheldever around 1981 to view the lines of withdrawn Subs awaiting their fate, recalling fond memories of many rides around the Hounslow loop in them. They were like saunas in the snow as everyone brought snow into the units on their shoes whilst those underseat electric heaters were going full tilt, the humidity kept on rising as the snow melted in the heat within the coaches and you almost preyed for someone to open the doors and get on or off at the next stop!

 

Kevin

[robertcwp]

Here is one having a sprint down the Through Line:

4-SUB_4376_QueenRdBat_5-6-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

And 4277 in its final weeks:

4-SUB_4277_4298_1722_Wloo-Horsham_7-83_v2m by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Oldddudders]

Good pics for improving my headcode knowledge! 14 via Weybridge was certainly one I didn't know - and in my day the 1722 Waterloo - Horsham would have been 17, but SEmG tells me it was 15 by 1981. In the '67 re-cast that I think was the first running of the 1722, it looped at Dorking for a cross-platform connection with the 1728 Vic - Bognor Regis, fast Vic to Dorking.

[dasatcopthorne]

Here is one having a sprint down the Through Line:

4-SUB_4376_QueenRdBat_5-6-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

And 4277 in its final weeks:

4-SUB_4277_4298_1722_Wloo-Horsham_7-83_v2m by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Funny.

 

Also the last Sub I photographed 'in service'.  13 August 1983, Coulsdon North sidings.

 

Farewell old friend!

 

Dave

 

 

[Colin parks]

Here is one having a sprint down the Through Line:

4-SUB_4376_QueenRdBat_5-6-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

Hi Dave,

 

By coincidence, I have been using the first picture of your post as a reference for the livery of the model I am building (still!).  The yellow cab front grab handles are a nice feature. 

 

A slightly non-standard feature and loosely related to the subject of the 'decline' of the 4 SUB units was, that on those motor coaches which had repair plates fitted on the bottom edge of the van panels,  the 'Load 1 Ton...' script re-applied above the repair plate.  In the photo, the elevated position of this lettering can just be seen on the van side of motor coach of 4376. A quirk of this particular unit is the low positioning of the BR crest on at least the leading motor coach. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[RJS1977]

There was an interesting bit in the RSME magazine a few months ago by a guy who'd been a depot manager at Selhurst Park in the 1970s. He recollected that when he started working there the last train to leave the depot in the morning peak left at 0758 and the first to arrive back after the peak came into the depot at 0804! As the evening peak tended to be spread over a longer period, fewer units were used in the evening so effectively one unit was only used for 6 minutes a day!

 

Multiply this over the other depots on the Southern and I can see that potentially quite a number of units could have  been withdrawn with slight tweaks to the timetable with little or no impact on service provision, except perhaps in terms of reducing the number of "spares" available to cover failures/maintenance.

[robertcwp]

There was an interesting bit in the RSME magazine a few months ago by a guy who'd been a depot manager at Selhurst Park in the 1970s. He recollected that when he started working there the last train to leave the depot in the morning peak left at 0758 and the first to arrive back after the peak came into the depot at 0804! As the evening peak tended to be spread over a longer period, fewer units were used in the evening so effectively one unit was only used for 6 minutes a day!

 

Multiply this over the other depots on the Southern and I can see that potentially quite a number of units could have  been withdrawn with slight tweaks to the timetable with little or no impact on service provision, except perhaps in terms of reducing the number of "spares" available to cover failures/maintenance.

More intensive diagramming of stock and matching (ie reducing) train lengths to match better with demand were major factors in the reduction of the SR EMU fleet in the early 1980s following the Monopolies & Mergers Commission report.  This probably contributed to the 1982 4 Sub withdrawals and also marked the beginning of the end for the BR 2 Hap fleet, around 100 of which had gone by the mid-1980s - with their blue asbestos insulation also contributing to their early demise.  (The remaining Haps and those paired up as 4 Cap units survived much longer as they had been stripped of asbestos.)  Better diagramming and a reduction in boat train traffic helped to provide the EMUs for the Hastings electrification from the existing fleet in 1986.

[Oldddudders]

Better diagramming and a reduction in boat train traffic helped to provide the EMUs for the Hastings electrification from the existing fleet in 1986.

An exercise that was then repeated to provide units for East Grinstead, and "Howards Way" (Portcreek/Farlington Junctions - Eastleigh/St Denys) a couple of years later.

 

How many rabbits can you get out of one hat?

[Strathwood]

There was an interesting bit in the RSME magazine a few months ago by a guy who'd been a depot manager at Selhurst Park in the 1970s. He recollected that when he started working there the last train to leave the depot in the morning peak left at 0758 and the first to arrive back after the peak came into the depot at 0804! As the evening peak tended to be spread over a longer period, fewer units were used in the evening so effectively one unit was only used for 6 minutes a day!

 

Multiply this over the other depots on the Southern and I can see that potentially quite a number of units could have  been withdrawn with slight tweaks to the timetable with little or no impact on service provision, except perhaps in terms of reducing the number of "spares" available to cover failures/maintenance.

Certainly during the 1960s the storage sidings at Hounslow were seldom to be seen empty for too long at a time.

 

Kevin

[robertcwp]

Hi Dave,

 

By coincidence, I have been using the first picture of your post as a reference for the livery of the model I am building (still!).  The yellow cab front grab handles are a nice feature. 

 

A slightly non-standard feature and loosely related to the subject of the 'decline' of the 4 SUB units was, that on those motor coaches which had repair plates fitted on the bottom edge of the van panels,  the 'Load 1 Ton...' script re-applied above the repair plate.  In the photo, the elevated position of this lettering can just be seen on the van side of motor coach of 4376. A quirk of this particular unit is the low positioning of the BR crest on at least the leading motor coach. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Here is a closer view of the details referred to:

 

4-SUB_4376_QueenRdBat_5-6-67_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

The rear unit of the formation is in blue livery with small yellow panels.

 

Note that 4376 only has the handrails around the offside cab window.  Some units had them on both sides, such as this one:

 

4-SUB_4378_DurnRd_2-7-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

I believe these handrails were present because, on some units, the offside cab window could not be opened to change the headcode.

[HAB]

Well done and many thanks for your Flickr Album Robert - excellent reference material.

 

 

It looks like Colin was a bit unlucky here: we have first-rate pics of 4376 and 4277 and he is modelling 4377!

 

 

Best wishes,

[Colin parks]

Many thanks for the enlargement Robert!

 

I can now see that the driver's door grab handles are polished brass, so that is a bonus. The cab front is also quite grubby in the areas around the MU fittings. This is of particular interest to me as I am currently weathering my model. Luckily, one of the motor coaches of the unit I am modelling, 4377, is the subject of a reasonable photo in David Brown's book Southern Electric. Although the photo was taken while the two motor coaches were temporarily being used in 4 LAV 2926, it shows the cab front details and livery to be the same as unit 4376.

 

I have looked at many pictures from your collection recently and I must say that it is a valuable resource for the Southern Electric modeller.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[roythebus]

I used to enjoy working the 4SUBs in my days at Waterloo. As you may know, they only had the straight Westinghouse brake and took some skill to get them to stop in the right spot, but at least they STOPPED, unlike their 508 and 455 replacements. They were always warm in the cab even on a cold day and quite reliable units.

[jonhall]

 

 

 

 

Note that 4376 only has the handrails around the offside cab window.  Some units had them on both sides, such as this one:

 

4-SUB_4378_DurnRd_2-7-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

I believe these handrails were present because, on some units, the offside cab window could not be opened to change the headcode.

 

Are you sure about the location of this one - the sheds at Durnsford Road (Wimbledon) are parallel to the mainline, not raked back like that - it looks more Selhurst to me?

 

No I'm wrong - I had no idea that the old sheds were on this alignment, with the power station the waste ground in the middle distance,

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p85456028/hA1CC00E#ha1cc00e

 

Jon

[Oldddudders]

 

The 50-unit reduction in 1976 was largely due to the major service cuts in April of that year. 

This was the result of a BR Board cuts initiative called "STOP" Short-Term Objectives - Passenger, which had no doubt originated at HM Treasury and been transmitted via the Department of Transport. Nasty cuts into daily operations were required, and that was that. Inevitably some managers were better at it than others. At Charing Cross, not a SUB location by 1976, the Acting SM dug deep into numbers of staff, expecting the staff side to demand some restitution of posts. They didn't, and he went on to a rather good career!

[phil gollin]

.

 

Does anyone know if there was any "rhyme or reason" to the allocation of 4-SUBs and 4-EPBs/2-EPBs ?

 

Was it just trying to keep individual depots mainly/entirely one sort or the other ?

 

.

[robertcwp]

.

 

Does anyone know if there was any "rhyme or reason" to the allocation of 4-SUBs and 4-EPBs/2-EPBs ?

 

Was it just trying to keep individual depots mainly/entirely one sort or the other ?

 

.

The South Eastern was all EPB by the early 1960s mainly because of the use of 10-car trains in the peaks and to standardise on compatible units.  EPB allocations on the Central and South Western tended to be more specific to particular routes or workings.  For example, on the Central, workings to/from Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct were generally EPB I think possibly because of some inter-working with the South Eastern. Those diagrams sometimes took units onto other routes too.  The South London Line was worked by 2 EPB units.  Caterham/Tattenham was also EPB and saw 10-car trains in the peaks until cutbacks in the 1970s.  Those services worked through to Charing Cross off peak. On the South Western, the Guildford New Line was dominated by EPBs for around 20 years, having been their first route. Windsor/Weybridge was also an EPB route with trains splitting at Staines.  It made much use of SR 2 EPB units from their introduction until the 1970s.  Some EPBs appeared on other lines either because of inter-working or because there were not enough 4 Sub units to cover all diagrams following the strengthening of suburban services in the 1960s.  As the 4 Sub fleet declined, EPBs took over more workings and latterly Subs appeared mainly Mon-Fri only, in particular in the peaks.  Selhurst and Wimbledon both had mixed allocations for many years although the allocations were common between the two until the 1970s.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Thanks for that.

 

When, during the 60s and early 70s) I lived near Reedham I travelled (by 2- and 4-EPBs) via Purley where 4-SUBs worked through to Coulsdon North.

 

(Likewise at the same time, the Wimbledon to West Croydon via Mitcham Junction service was 2-EPBs, whilst the Wimbledon to West Croydon via Sutton service was 4-SUBs.

 

.

[gromit323]

Are you sure about the location of this one - the sheds at Durnsford Road (Wimbledon) are parallel to the mainline, not raked back like that - it looks more Selhurst to me?

 

No I'm wrong - I had no idea that the old sheds were on this alignment, with the power station the waste ground in the middle distance,

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p85456028/hA1CC00E#ha1cc00e

 

Jon

 

Yes I was at Durnsford Rd as a technician apprentice when East Wimbo depot was being built. I have the dubious honor of having designed the original pit boards for the new depot !!

The original sheds were a 4 rd "servicing (cleaning) shed parallel to Durnsford road with the depot entrance at the opposite end of the site to where it is today, It was next to the first of the present Victorian houses separated by a "back alley" to get to the garages.

Following across the site were the lifitng shop (old repair shop) then used for minor wheel changes especially in the Autumn for leaf fall flats the. shop had 2 x 20T overhead cranes and housed the English Electric companies garden shed which their fitters lived in, about 10 x 8ft and very incongruous with a felted roof, these guys came from the curiously named Erection Dept  at Preston and were there to see to the niggling defects on the 10 cars of PEP stock then based at Durnsford Rd for commissioning and running trials. 

Next were a selection of decreasing length workshops where day to day maintenance and brake block changing were carried out, the ones nearest Durnsford Rd accommodated an 8 car reducing to the ones on the right of the picture which could have held a LSWR 3 sub but not anything longer and were effectively disused as a 4 SUB would not fit without fouling the points for the next roads.

 

A funny incidents when the new depot foundations were being dug was that the builders unexpectedly unearthed the foundations of the power station coal bunker and had to spend a number of weeks with what was then a new concept of the 360 digger with a huge pneumatic breaker on the end pounding bits off the obstruction to allow the depot to be level.

I think the LSWR civil engineers learnt from the Romans about how to make concrete structures last.....make it big and thick !!

 

Also there was a steel musical drum maker, as in West Indian steel bands, who started up business from one of the garages adjacent to the entrance, he was at it all day Bang, Bang Bang with a 2 lb hammer then dingle dingle dingle till it was in tune to his satisfaction.

He was apparently "requested" to find alternative premises out of earshot of the depot by a couple of burly West Indian fitters who whilst admiring their countries native instrument were not inclined to let his work interrupt their card school at break time and lunch time sleeps.

 

Happier days !

 

John

[Southernman46]

the new depot foundations

which we've spent the intervening years trying to corrode to nothing with DC traction return - did that ever get cured ?