A Borchester Market layout appreciation topic

[Chris_z]

Baseboard 1980 redrawn with metric dimensions.

BM BASEBOARD EVOLUTION

Subtle changes have occurred over time.

I tried overlaying the diagram for assembling the boards over those on the 1980 published plan.

The following images are:

- redrawn from the 1980 plan

- the diagram adjusted to fit the 1980 plan

- both overlaid.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Chris_z

[Chris_z]

BM BASEBOARD EVOLUTION

Subtle changes have occurred over time.

I tried overlaying the diagram for assembling the boards over those on the 1980 published plan.

The following images are:

- redrawn from the 1980 plan

- the diagram adjusted to fit the 1980 plan

- both overlaid.

As far as I can tell from online images further changes have taken place.

The top 'north-east' corner is different and I will cover that shortly.

The hidden sidings have been expanded. Because I don't have dimensions, the changes need to be considered approximate. Perhaps Newhaven could eventually provide more details.

[60526]

Chris, the overall width dimensions and depth back to boards 4H and 5H should not have changed, the GC fiddleyard 6L has been rebuilt twice since Newhaven took over the layout and is deeper than before to relax some curves, reposition the turntable and add an extra storage line. Thinking about it 4H has been increased by one line, probably when the layout moved from North London to Caerphilly one of the storage lines was removed to make more access space down the side of the shed, we found a cut back point in place there so when we re-inforced and rebuilt parts of board 4H we added the line back in. It has been written about and explained before that FD used a furniture van to transport the layout to exhibitions, in this day and age we would not be given that luxury so we decided that it had to fit into a short wheelbase van, also we decided early on that we didn't want to spend 2 hours breaking the layout down every time so we use inverted tressels along the front and back, the boards effectively just slide on and off these. Just an obsevation that 3B is not a separate board, it is within the same frame as 2, I can't check at the moment because of the way the layout is stored but I don't remember seeing a separate sheet line across there. 4L and 6H have been cut in half, there are now only two boards across the back, 5H+½4L+½6H, 4H+½4L+½6H+3+7H, 3A the lifting flap has incorporated part of 3 and is now just a bolt in section. The only other change is the addition of locos storage roads fanning off of the GN fiddleyard turntable to the right of 4H. Like I say, access is nigh impossible at the moment but I know that the overlength is not exactly 4m, we'll have to wait until it comes out of hibernation, could be an idea to log exactly what everything is made of, mostly blockwood for the tops and recycled furniture for the framework, and Wickes softwood and ply for what we have added, apart from what we have recycled.

[Chris_z]

As far as I can tell from online images further changes have taken place.

The top 'north-east' corner is different and I will cover that shortly.

The hidden sidings have been expanded. Because I don't have dimensions, the changes need to be considered approximate. Perhaps Newhaven could eventually provide more details.

'NE CORNER'

The 1980 published plan shows a door into the layout room. I say 'room', because I think this represents the North London location. Can anyone confirm?

When I visited the layout near Caerphilly, the shed door was in a different location in that corner.

I can't explain the differences between the 1980 plan and the diagram, especially the lifting board.

It is clear from online images that the lifting board has been expanded and the corner a single board. Compared with the 1980 article, the Goods Shed road (line) has been extended. It would have been needed, because the Goods Shed photo in the magazine is much smaller and the line shorter. What's visible today is a larger site for the bigger Goods Shed now found on Hardwick Grange. Also, the yard crane was moved when this occurred.

[Chris_z]

'NE CORNER'

The 1980 published plan shows a door into the layout room. I say 'room', because I think this represents the North London location. Can anyone confirm?

When I visited the layout near Caerphilly, the shed door was in a different location in that corner.

I can't explain the differences between the 1980 plan and the diagram, especially the lifting board.

It is clear from online images that the lifting board has been expanded and the corner a single board. Compared with the 1980 article, the Goods Shed road (line) has been extended. It would have been needed, because the Goods Shed photo in the magazine is much smaller and the line shorter. What's visible today is a larger site for the bigger Goods Shed now found on Hardwick Grange. Also, the yard crane was moved when this occurred.

TRACK, RAIL-BREAKS AND SIGNALS

This information is still incomplete, but needs input from anyone who can help.

First is the track (visible and hidden) as shown in the 1980 article. Some rail-breaks are missing and incomplete.

The second image highlights these and needs input.

The third image shows the signalling as I have been able to understand it. I really need help to correctly identify each signal in order to produce a labelled diagram.

I hope you can see the Theatre Panel. A very high resolution scan plus reference to online images has, I think, allowed me to correctly identify the routes (left to right):

- Platforms 1 & 2

- centre road (X)

- Platforms 3 & 4

- Goods Yard headshunt (Y).

I noticed that some of the newly replaced signals - excellent though they are - have Franks upper quadrant disks replaced by lower quadrant disks. This layout represents 1958 and LNER (GNR) signalling remained. They used upper quadrant disks. I hope Newhaven can remedy this to maintain the 1958 era.

[Chris_z]

Chris, the overall width dimensions and depth back to boards 4H and 5H should not have changed, the GC fiddleyard 6L has been rebuilt twice since Newhaven took over the layout and is deeper than before to relax some curves, reposition the turntable and add an extra storage line. Thinking about it 4H has been increased by one line, probably when the layout moved from North London to Caerphilly one of the storage lines was removed to make more access space down the side of the shed, we found a cut back point in place there so when we re-inforced and rebuilt parts of board 4H we added the line back in. It has been written about and explained before that FD used a furniture van to transport the layout to exhibitions, in this day and age we would not be given that luxury so we decided that it had to fit into a short wheelbase van, also we decided early on that we didn't want to spend 2 hours breaking the layout down every time so we use inverted tressels along the front and back, the boards effectively just slide on and off these. Just an obsevation that 3B is not a separate board, it is within the same frame as 2, I can't check at the moment because of the way the layout is stored but I don't remember seeing a separate sheet line across there. 4L and 6H have been cut in half, there are now only two boards across the back, 5H+½4L+½6H, 4H+½4L+½6H+3+7H, 3A the lifting flap has incorporated part of 3 and is now just a bolt in section. The only other change is the addition of locos storage roads fanning off of the GN fiddleyard turntable to the right of 4H. Like I say, access is nigh impossible at the moment but I know that the overlength is not exactly 4m, we'll have to wait until it comes out of hibernation, could be an idea to log exactly what everything is made of, mostly blockwood for the tops and recycled furniture for the framework, and Wickes softwood and ply for what we have added, apart from what we have recycled.

Thanks very much for replying. You've clearly done much more than I thought.

3B: It never looked right being called 'Goods Shed'. I think it's wrongly named. If you have a look at the 3 drawings I did of the 'NE Corner', you'll see the Goods Shed is already on 2.

I hope you won't mind me not waiting for approval, but I took the liberty of extracting a section of one of your website photos to better explain. I've put red lines where board joins are visible. The others are clearly visible in many online images.

I think I have a better idea of the consolidation of boards you described.

 

The 'south side'...

Quite drastic changes. I haven't fully understood your description, but the annotated drawing shows what I think you were describing. Feel free to download and annotate and repost.

 

I hadn't intended posting the 3rd image, but it shows my attempt to understand the current storage alterations. You say you've moved the lefthand turntable. This makes perfect sense of the online images. I think there are 5 additional short sides at the far left side. Not to be confused with the 5 main storage lines on the rest of that board.

 

Is this all useful?

I can't provide materials information. Please feel free to add information.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Chris_z

[Chris_z]

PS

 

I do appreciate your circumstances concerning the storage of BM and premises issues.

[Chris_z]

IN MEMORY OF FRANK DYER

 

Redrawn BORCHESTER MARKET 00 Layout, as in 1980.

 

Hope this is OK.

More to follow......

Edited May 10, 2017 by Chris_z

[t-b-g]

This may have been mentioned already and I may have missed it but part of the fiddle yard, bottom right on the plan, has a layout very like some sidings and the turntable on Borchester Town. Is there a chance that some of the original track layout was adapted and used or is it new?

[Chris_z]

This may have been mentioned already and I may have missed it but part of the fiddle yard, bottom right on the plan, has a layout very like some sidings and the turntable on Borchester Town. Is there a chance that some of the original track layout was adapted and used or is it new?

I'm sorry, but I know nothing about Borchester Town. I've never even seen a picture of it.

[60526]

Tony, the turntable has very old section rail on it, it would have always been a fyard TT, so it is not the one from the front of BT, but the track to the lhs of the turntable is fibre based so probably originates from BT, indeed if you go over to the far lhs with the 3 loco sidings and the coal sidings behind the Wellow Park backscene these are original fibre based points. As for the add on board to the right of the TT, this is all new, we decided early on to have as much hands off since we run a lot of kit built locos and along with the RTR all are weathered, so clumsy or sticky fingers are not a good idea.

[Chris_z]

IN MEMORY OF FRANK DYER

Redrawn BORCHESTER MARKET 00 Layout, as in 1980.

Hope this is OK.

More to follow......

I REALLY, REALLY NEED HELP with trying to understand the signalling on BM.

I have a string of questions, but I'm starting with a signalling plan with some key questions.

Hope someone can help.

I think I made a mistake trying to get the Theatre Indicator numbers from the 1980 plan. See attached.

 

UPDATE:

The 3 panel Theatre Indicator: 2 should be 3.

The Yard Signal does have a small arm for shunting movements onto the main line.

The disc question is answered later in this thread.

I'm grateful to Tony Walmsley for answering all 3 questions.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Chris_z

[60526]

Chris -

Ground signal on rhs - I'll have to try and see if I can view this.

Control of the headshunt and sidings - these lines have their own section, yellow in this case, it can controlled by any one of the 3 BM controllers, arrivals/departures/freight yard+loco yard, the latter is one usually assigned to this duty in the timetable.

Outlet signal? Yes it is the departure signal from the goods yard to the departures line. In the past it had been damaged and we carried out some repairs, I'll check to see what sized arm it has on it.

Gantry signals - I'll have to defer an answer until later, we carried out some repairs to this pre York exhibition, we made some notes, you were after the lever numbers anyway. 

[Chris_z]

Chris -

Ground signal on rhs - I'll have to try and see if I can view this.

Control of the headshunt and sidings - these lines have their own section, yellow in this case, it can controlled by any one of the 3 BM controllers, arrivals/departures/freight yard+loco yard, the latter is one usually assigned to this duty in the timetable.

Outlet signal? Yes it is the departure signal from the goods yard to the departures line. In the past it had been damaged and we carried out some repairs, I'll check to see what sized arm it has on it.

Gantry signals - I'll have to defer an answer until later, we carried out some repairs to this pre York exhibition, we made some notes, you were after the lever numbers anyway.

 

Hi,

I've done more work on trying to understand the signalling.

The attached diagram tries to encapsulate most of my queries. BM is a good example for trying to understand semaphore signalling. Not only do I want to understand, but it maybe useful for others.

BM rightfully got that award for signalling. I wonder if it had such awards in the past?

The diagram attached:

- I've created my own numbering system for simplicity. I know they don't match the control panel, but it shouldn't matter for this post.

- yellow disks cover the main (running & subsidiary) signals

- blue disks cover disc signals.

- disc signals on the right of the track have been identified (more than I thought)

- since doing this I realise there are at least 2 'main' signals on the 'wrong' side - 3-arm shunt bracket and the yard signal.

 

My question about the headshunt disc concerned 'real' life, not the model operation. I've got 6 books on signalling, but they don't answer many questions!

Does that ground disc (blue 20) cover the immediate right divergence?

If so, how is shunting allowed with the disc 'off'? I know the turnout is set for straight ahead moves, but how is permission given for shunts involving the headshunt?

 

That 'yard signal' has a blue notice board. I can read the large heading, but what does the rest of it say?

 

Most questions now answered. Replacement diagram below encapsulates current knowledge. Thanks for help - Tony, Charlie, Rod.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Chris_z

[Chris_z]

I'm trying to redraw the Control Panel diagram, but am unable to read all the small text.

I've written over in black where it can be read.

The unreadable is marked with a red T.

Also, I cannot read all the numbers on the gantry diagram.

PLEASE CAN ANYONE HELP?

[phixer64]

Hi Chris, I downloaded the pic, and then imported it into Photoshop, zoomed in at 800% ....... ermm nope, I can't make head or tail of it, and I've even sharpen the it as well, still no joy.

 

Regards Jeff

[Chris_z]

Hi Chris, I downloaded the pic, and then imported it into Photoshop, zoomed in at 800% ....... ermm nope, I can't make head or tail of it, and I've even sharpen the it as well, still no joy.

 

Regards Jeff

Thanks for trying. Been there done it! I've put the image through 'torture' to see what I could get. What you see is the result of the 'torture' and the remaining unreadables.

I guess I really have to ask Charlie when BM is next accessible to see if more can be read and write it down.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Is this any help?

 

[Chris_z]

Is this any help?

 

Capture.JPG

Thanks very much.

I've got most of this one, except the far left and far right signal (disc) numbers.

Are they 24 & 26?? 26 would make sense, because it would carry on from 23, 24, 25 above it. 24 doesn't make sense, because it duplicates one of those I've already mentioned. The 2nd number looks like a 4, but can't make out the number before it. Any suggestions.

 

I should point out that there seem to be a lot of things wrong with that diagram. I was looking at uncoupling ramps in the photos and there's a lot of changes. I think the original diagram must have quite a few bits of paper glue onto it with amendments. Some of these look as though they've fallen off. Most of the fixed (uncontrolled) ramps have been removed. Some ramps should still be shown - all controlled, I think.

Some of the rail-breaks don't match those on the published plan in 1980.

I really need help sorting out the signalling - see earlier posts from me.

 

Just in case anyone is wondering how much more is coming.... lots! I haven't even come to the subject that interests me most.

 

Thanks again. Appreciate the help.

[Chris_z]

Is this any help?

 

Capture.JPG

Looking at my posted image, the inset hasn't come out that well.

Here's a close-up.

Sorry for any confusion. I got the far right number first time. It's still the far left, but also a number in the middle. Looks like 57??, but that would duplicate as well.

 

On the signals....

If you compare this inset with the gantry I drew in an earlier post, you'll see 2 additional disc signals shown on the inset - the one on the far left and 57. They look like the ones on the other face!

To clarify.... my drawings show inbound (down) and outbound (up) respectively. The inset shows outbound (up) and inbound (down) respectively! Confusing....

I wonder if Frank got them mixed up when he drew them?

Edited April 1, 2017 by Chris_z

[60526]

Chris, I have sent you a PM with a copy of the BM timetable. If anyone else is interested in a copy just drop me a line, it is in MSExcel. Regards Charlie

[Chris_z]

Chris, I have sent you a PM with a copy of the BM timetable. If anyone else is interested in a copy just drop me a line, it is in MSExcel. Regards Charlie

Many thanks,

See my reply to you.

Chris

[Chris_z]

I'm trying to redraw the Control Panel diagram, but am unable to read all the small text.

I've written over in black where it can be read.

The unreadable is marked with a red T.

Also, I cannot read all the numbers on the gantry diagram.

PLEASE CAN ANYONE HELP?

Finally been able to make some progress on redrawing the Control Panel Diagram - see below.

I will have to wait until such time as access to the original diagram is possible for further information.

For now, I hope this helps.

 

THIS HAS NOW BEEN SUPERCEDED. PLEASE SEE LATER POST.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Chris_z

[Chris_z]

IN MEMORY OF FRANK DYER

Redrawn BORCHESTER MARKET 00 Layout, as in 1980.

Hope this is OK.

More to follow......

Thanks to some excellent photos from Charlie of BM 1992, I now feel confident in producing a layout plan for 1992.

 

BORCHESTER MARKET 1992

Edited May 10, 2017 by Chris_z

[Chris_z]

I think I've done as much as possible with the information to hand. So, for the moment, l'll move on to the - for me - the most interesting element of Franks Borchester Market - the scenario.

 

I've redrawn his location diagram.

 

This is very diagrammatic. The area of the scenario and model has been vastly exaggerated, presumably for legibility.