A Borchester Market layout appreciation topic

[sp1]

A seperate Buckingham thread would be very interesting.

 

I have never seen any of the original articles written about it - must try to track them down!

 

Would it be too much to ask for a track plan and brief description of the operating system??

[Brian D]

A seperate Buckingham thread would be very interesting.

 

I have never seen any of the original articles written about it - must try to track them down!

 

Would it be too much to ask for a track plan and brief description of the operating system??

I have saved a couple of articles from Railway Modeller, one from 1987 and one from 2010.  I'll pm you.

Regards,

Brian.

[johnarcher]

Not a correction more an observations as these things are very subjective. The original Charford in its residential caravan form had no room for scenery at all and the front edge of the layout was literally the railway fence with walls and the backs of commercial premises forming the backdrop. There was some scenery in its enlarged permanent shed form but apart from one short section of open countryside it was as you say mostly the railway and its borders. Berrow was much the same though, as an L shaped layout, the corner provided a scenic gap between Berrow and East Brent

 

I've got Maurice Deane's original Railway Modeller articles on the Culm Valley branch and I'll PM a couple of photos of the layout. The first article is the result of his obviously thorough research on the branch and the second describes his model of it. After that his small scale modelling seems to have focused on smaller layouts but always based on a real location including The Wantage Tramway and the Rye and Camber but I think his main interest must have become his 0 gauge garden railway.

Thank you, as I said I missed Maurice Deane at the time, I would be interested to see the pictures. Was the modelling of a real location a bit of a novelty at the time as well?

With regard to Charford etc., I was, I think, talking more about the priority given to the scenic side as much as about how much of it there was - just a background, or something that interested the builder nearly as much as the railway.

Edited December 22, 2014 by johnarcher

[St Enodoc]

My first experience of Buckingham was exactly the same, although it took place after the extension. The extra 2ft width (the pub/hunt scene area) must have made a huge difference to the operators as the space is just enough now but must have been a bit restricted before.

 

Within a few minutes of sitting at the controls it all seemed so logical and well thought out that I couldn't understand why all layouts were not done like that!

 

There has been talk of possible further articles. It is a bit strange writing about a layout that somebody else not only built but wrote extensively about, so the old brainbox is being exercised to think of new things to say about the old layout.

 

Thanks for the "Buckingham" memories. It is good to hear from those with stories to tell about it.

 

Is it time for a separate Buckingham thread? I do feel a bit guilty posting about Buckingham on what should be a Borchester thread. Or would folk prefer to keep postings about older layouts together in one place and perhaps create a more general "Historic Layouts" thread?

 

Tony

 

Tony

Tony, a separate Buckingham topic would be very interesting to me. With regard to older layouts in general there is already a topic here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67526-older-inspirational-layouts/.

[RJS1977]

Once again I risk hijacking the Borchester thread but I couldn't really let the comment about the lack of scenery on Buckingham pass me by!

 

Both Borchester and Buckingham are primarily operational layouts and as such, the scenic work is there to frame the working railway.

 

More scenic layouts, like Chee Tor or Pendon are really superb 3D pictures with added moving trains.

 

However, once Buckingham had been moved to Truro, the larger railway room did allow some scenic development and I would venture to suggest that Buckingham has more scenery on it than many a layout, both of the town scene and landscape variety.

 

Here are a few quick snaps taken to illustrate the point......

 

They also show how much needs to be done before I can say that the restoration is completed!

 

Tony

 

Many thanks for sharing these - several are of views never seen before in colour (or at all in some cases owing to new viewing angles possible in the new location).

 

Although I've never had opportunity to see the whole layout (only LB a couple of times at shows under your custodianship), I very nearly did once about twelve years ago. I was in the throes of a possible move to the West Country with work and called in on the local model railway club to see what it was like. On the wall was a sign-up sheet for a trip to Buckingham (I can't remember if the garden railway was included as well or not). Unfortunately it was (a) on a date I was unavailable and (b) it seemed a little cheeky to go on the trip when not a member of the club (which I'd already pretty much decided not to join).

 

But any updates on the restoration would of course be more than welcome (whether online or in print - I'm sure RM wouldn't turn any articles down given the layout's long association with the magazine).

 

Richard

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I'm sure many of us would certainly welcome a full thread on the continuing history of Buckingham, and I don't think regular posts on here would preclude any print material also appearing.  Several layouts in there have 'crossed over' and vice versa.

 

Buckingham is right there in the very formative years of my interest in this hobby, when I began to be aware it could be so much more than an oval of track and some sidings on an 8 x 4 board...

[Pacific231G]

Once again I risk hijacking the Borchester thread but I couldn't really let the comment about the lack of scenery on Buckingham pass me by!

 

Both Borchester and Buckingham are primarily operational layouts and as such, the scenic work is there to frame the working railway.

 

More scenic layouts, like Chee Tor or Pendon are really superb 3D pictures with added moving trains.

 

However, once Buckingham had been moved to Truro, the larger railway room did allow some scenic development and I would venture to suggest that Buckingham has more scenery on it than many a layout, both of the town scene and landscape variety.

 

Here are a few quick snaps taken to illustrate the point......

 

They also show how much needs to be done before I can say that the restoration is completed!

Thanks Tony these pictures are fascinating and show scenes I'd never seen before. It's interesting that the Truro version probably has at least as much open scenery as the Madder Valley though that probably had rather more townscape.

[Pacific231G]

A seperate Buckingham thread would be very interesting.

 

I have never seen any of the original articles written about it - must try to track them down!

 

Would it be too much to ask for a track plan and brief description of the operating system??

It's worth getting hold of a copy of his book Buckingham Great Central: 25 years of Railway Modelling published by Peco in 1972.  It's on Amazon for about £22.50 and there is a copy on eBay right now at £14.95 buy it now. It also often appears in railway oriented second hand bookshops and at exhibitions . He also wrote a two part book for Wild Swan called the Buckingham Branch Line pts 1 and 2.  I'm not so familiar with those but they seem well liked.  

There is a bibliography in the RMWeb archive http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=48203

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I have those books, finally tracked them down a few years ago.  The Peco one I used to borrow frequently from my local library when I was very young.  

 

I'd like to see what's going on with the layout being slowly restored today, and particularly see it photographed with modern digital cameras.  The photos in the Peco book are 1970s Railway Modeller quality!  

[Pacific231G]

I have those books, finally tracked them down a few years ago.  The Peco one I used to borrow frequently from my local library when I was very young.  

 

I'd like to see what's going on with the layout being slowly restored today, and particularly see it photographed with modern digital cameras.  The photos in the Peco book are 1970s Railway Modeller quality!  

How much do the Wild Swan books add to the story Denny told in Buckingham Great Central? They do seem to go for rather high prices second hand

It was terrific to actually see Leighton Buzzard when it first appeared at ExpoEM so more photos of Buckingham would be great.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Pacific231G

[johnarcher]

Thanks Tony these pictures are fascinating and show scenes I'd never seen before. It's interesting that the Truro version probably has at least as much open scenery as the Madder Valley 

Not, of course, until a lot later. When I mentioned the lack of scenic emphasis on Buckingham I was talking about the different influences of Denny/Dyer and Ahern/Stokes just after the war and in the '50's/early '60's, and I do think that was true of Buckingham then. Makes one wish Peter Denny had had that extra space available at that time, would he have used it the same way?  I'm sure he would have produced something even more impressive than he did.

[DLT]

Dont forget that Buckingham was originally a portable layout built to fit in a bedsit, and grew from there.  So to begin with, like Charford metioned earlier there was little room for landscaping.

When it was permanently installed in the vicarage, it was still a bit of a shoe-horn job, and the branchline dissapeared through a hole in the wall on leaving Grandborough, did a semicircle in the room next door and re-appeared through the wall straight into the Leighton Buzzard terminus.

 

One of the things that you really notice when you see the layout for the first time is how small it really is!  Buckingham itself is only twelve feet long, from the station approach to the wall behind the loco shed.  Its a remarkable feat of modelling and artistry to fit a four-platform mainline terminus, loco shed, suitable goods facilities AND a gasworks without it looking the least bit cramped.  How many layouts have you seen and thought "Oh no, they've tried to cram too much in"?  Well thats the LAST  thing that springs to mind when you see Buckingham!  Careful placement of buildings, and breaking the scene up with roadbridges helps the view most successfully.

 

Cheers,

Dave.T

[DLT]

Tony, a separate Buckingham topic would be very interesting to me. With regard to older layouts in general there is already a topic here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67526-older-inspirational-layouts/.

As this thread seems to have grown organically, and the two layouts were contemporary and I think complimentary, how about keeping this thread as a Borchester AND Buckingham thread, rather than starting another one?  

Perhaps the original poster could change the title accordingly?

As said above, there is already a thread discussing older inspirational layouts, but the discussion there are more about what have influenced the individual poster.  This one is about the two most influential layouts of the post-war era.

Cheers,

Dave.

[DLT]

How much do the Wild Swan books add to the story Denny told in Buckingham Great Central? They do seem to go for rather high prices second hand

Quite a lot!  The original book was published by Peco in 1972, the two Wild Swan volumes in 1993 and 94.  Quite a bit of development took place in that period, and the story goes up to the famous appearance at the MRJ Exhibition.

There are lots more diagrams, more text, and more photographs.  The classic Ron Doyle photos from Railway Modeller are included, some printed larger than before.

Also the earlier book covered the Denny children's TT layouts and the garden railway; but the WS books sticks purely to The Buckingham Branch.

Highly recomended, even if you have the Peco book.

Cheers, Dave.

[johnarcher]

As this thread seems to have grown organically, and the two layouts were contemporary and I think complimentary, how about keeping this thread as a Borchester AND Buckingham thread, rather than starting another one?  

Perhaps the original poster could change the title accordingly?

As said above, there is already a thread discussing older inspirational layouts, but the discussion there are more about what have influenced the individual poster.  This one is about the two most influential layouts of the post-war era.

Cheers,

Dave.

I'd prefer 'two of the most influential', I would think most people would put Madder Valley up there, and personally I'd include Ravensbourne in that main few. The big development since then has surely been greater realism in all areas (stock, track, operating, landscape etc), and the landscape owes  more to the latter two than to Borchester and Buckingham, fine though they were. (What to call the thread if you include one or two more is another matter).

You point out, quite rightly, that Buckingham originally had limited space for landscape, but that is in a way my point about two different approaches, if someone who prioritised the landscape as Stokes and Ahern did had that space I suspect they would limit the railway for the scenery's sake - say Leighton Buzzard in Buckingham area. No question of one way being better than the other, two approaches that have both contributed to the modern hobby.

Actually I had better come clean, I loved Buckingham, kept all the '60's articles etc, but I never found Borchester especially inspiring, though obviously a fine piece of work. Maybe I was unlucky in the pictures I saw, but I recall having the impression it was, even more than Buckingham, railway and little else. That's not denying its quality or its influence, just a personal preference, which is where I started.

Edited December 27, 2014 by johnarcher

[t-b-g]

Got a new camera for Christmas and had a play with it this afternoon.

 

Somehow the "sepia" colour option seemed entirely appropriate.......

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

t-b-g, is it true that Buckingham is attending the Leamington show at in March?

[t-b-g]

t-b-g, is it true that Buckingham is attending the Leamington show at in March?

 

If it is, it is news to me! I have pondered long and hard about the possibility of exhibiting Buckingham. Like most things, it is technically possible but the sheer amount of work involved to move it and the very high chance of doing serious damage to it mean that I have pretty much ruled it out. Last time we moved it, dozens of old brittle soldered joints broke in the track and the wiring and it took many months to sort out what wire went where and where we needed to repair a dry but otherwise sound looking joint.

 

So moving the layout and getting it up and running on a Friday before a show would be miraculous to pull off.

 

I have seen references to another layout called Buckingham, so perhaps that is what is going to Leamington but it isn't the one in my shed!

 

Thanks for mentioning it in case others think about going to Leamington expecting to see it.

 

Tony

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Thanks for the clarification, t-b-g.  

 

I'm not so keen to go to the Leamington show now!  Imagine my disappointment!  

 

It might be worth getting Leamington MRS to clarify this on the website.  I don't imagine anyone would sue for misrepresentation, but I for one would have been pretty darn cross to trek over to Stoneleigh expecting to see the Buckingham and getting an imposter!

[martin_wynne]

It might be worth getting Leamington MRS to clarify this on the website.

 

It seems clear enough:

 

 http://lwmrs.co.uk/CMS/index.php/exhibition-layouts-63/96-sutton-folly-oo-1960s-ish-british-railways

 

although none of the layout URLs make sense.

 

Martin.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Thanks Martin, I hadn't seen that.  Call off the Attack Dogs!

 

I also did a double take that Bacup was there as well!

 

Serves me right for not scrolling about to find more info.  

Edited January 6, 2015 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Pacific231G]

It seems clear enough:

 

 http://lwmrs.co.uk/CMS/index.php/exhibition-layouts-63/96-sutton-folly-oo-1960s-ish-british-railways

 

although none of the layout URLs make sense.

 

Martin.

Indeed. Given the fame of Peter Denny's mythical Buckingham Great Central I suppose it might be sensible for this layout to be titled Buckingham LNWR  but the description is perfectly clear.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

 I have pondered long and hard about the possibility of exhibiting Buckingham. Like most things, it is technically possible but the sheer amount of work involved to move it and the very high chance of doing serious damage to it mean that I have pretty much ruled it out. Last time we moved it, dozens of old brittle soldered joints broke in the track and the wiring and it took many months to sort out what wire went where and where we needed to repair a dry but otherwise sound looking joint.

 

So moving the layout and getting it up and running on a Friday before a show would be miraculous to pull off.

 

 

Tony

I think I'd rather know that Buckingham is safe in its new home and it never was an exhibition layout anyway. Are there more outings planned for Leighton Buzzard-Linslade or is restoring Buckingham taking up all your time?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Pacific231G

[t-b-g]

I think I'd rather know that Buckingham is safe in its new home and it never was an exhibition layout anyway. Are there more outings planned for Leighton Buzzard-Linslade or is restoring Buckingham taking up all your time?

 

Very little work is actually taking place on Buckingham at the moment other than "fettling". Now that most of the layout is operational, we are just having fun operating it and fixing things as we go along.

 

Some jobs are progressing and the block bells and instruments between Buckingham and Grandborough Junction were put back into action a couple of weeks ago (no more shouting "ding" across the shed!)

 

I was planning to reduce exhibition outings for Leighton Buzzard down to perhaps one a year as the fiddle yard (which was cobbled together from offcuts and scrap bits of wood for a "one off" appearance at the MRJ show) is rapidly deteriorating as the timber twists and sags! However, in view of the big EM gauge anniversary this year, I have been persuaded to do both EXPO EM at Bracknell in May and EXPO EM North at Manchester in September.

 

As for the "other" Buckingham layout, I would have thought that exhibiting a layout and giving it that name would be bound to lead to confusion. If I have built it, I would have called it "Buckingham North Western" or "Buckingham LNWR" but I can imagine a little smile on the faces of those who have built the layout as they discussed such matters.......

 

   

[t-b-g]

Thanks for the clarification, t-b-g.  

 

I'm not so keen to go to the Leamington show now!  Imagine my disappointment!  

 

It might be worth getting Leamington MRS to clarify this on the website.  I don't imagine anyone would sue for misrepresentation, but I for one would have been pretty darn cross to trek over to Stoneleigh expecting to see the Buckingham and getting an imposter!

 

Before my involvement with the layout, I would have travelled a long way to see it at a show so I can appreciate your feelings.

 

I have put a clarification on the relevant exhibition thread.

 

Tony