A Borchester Market layout appreciation topic

[t-b-g]

Not sure Tony. Club are busy building new layout. Hardwicke is in storage. If I hear anything, I will post it here.

 

Rob

 

Thanks for the update. If there are no immediate plans to do anything with Hardwicke, is there any mileage in suggesting some sort of arrangement that some of the original locos and stock might appear at a show where Borchester is being exhibited? That would be a re-union worth going to see!

 

Tony

[NHY 581]

Outside my remit I am afraid. Will enquire but do not hold your breath.

 

Rob

[CUTLER2579]

Just noticed this item for sale on Flea-bay Item No. 201022834785

 

eBay item number:

201022834785      
 

MODEL RAILWAY JOURNAL ISSUE NO.27 Which features the Original Borchester Layout if I remember rightly,   but it's definately a Borchester Issue and at £1 even I would buy it. But I have already got it,but not to hand to confirm the contents accurately.

 

Regards.

 

 

 

[dunwurken]

I live in the hope that one day somebody will manage to organise an exhibition that brings together Borchester, Leighton Buzzard (from Buckingham) and Dundreich (C&MR). Whatever plans I have to cancel for that day, and no matter how far away it is - I'm going! :-)

That would be some exhibition! 

 

The joys of looking after old layouts built by other people!.........

 

So I can really understand just how much work goes into such a project and also how much the rest of us should applaud the current Borchester crew for not just saving the layout but for bringing it out to shows so that we get the chance to see and enjoy it.

 

Tony 

 

My sentiments entirely.  Might I echo your thanks to the current Borchester crew but I would also like to applaud your good self and the Buckingham crew for saving the layout and bringing it out to shows. 

 

By comparison I seem to got off lightly with 'Dundreich'.  Granted it is only a 6' x 2' 6" part of Craigshire but at least the narrow gauge is operable and the standard gauge capable of being made operable.  Dundreich attended the 009 Society 40th Anniversary Convention last year, its first ever public outing, and much to our relief it came through that unscathed. We also limiting future exhibitions and treating it with great care and respect!

 

May I also add my apologies for hijacking the thread.

 

Malcolm

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

 

Just noticed this item for sale on Flea-bay Item No. 201022834785

 

eBay item number:

201022834785      

 

MODEL RAILWAY JOURNAL ISSUE NO.27 Which features the Original Borchester Layout if I remember rightly,   but it's definately a Borchester Issue and at £1 even I would buy it. But I have already got it,but not to hand to confirm the contents accurately.

 

Regards.

 

 

 

Ah, that's the very issue that introduced me to Borchester.  It was the original layout, Town not Market.  I never would have guessed it was 1988...

[60526]

At our club night on Wednesday Ian Forsyth bought his new camera down and I thought that I would give it an aim and fire to see how good it is. The lighting is not brilliant in the room so apologies for the darkness, but all I've done is a bit of a crop and compressed the frame.

I said earlier that the layout won the best signalled layout award at Warley and indeed a photo has appeared in the latest Toddler alongside Pete Watermann. Here a few photos of the station arrivals signal and of the famous gantry with the platform 3 indicator on. You might just be able to make out that the lattice at the bottom of the arrivals signal is not too well, it does its job so for the time being it will stay as it is, it would probably be easier to replace the signal instead of repairing it.

 

 

Don't anyone mention a drought.

 

Regards

Charlie

[60526]

This signal controls the entry into the loco yard, colliery line or the carriage siding. From what we can see it is all Ratio plastic parts, very fragile and showing it's age. From some of the adhesive on it, it's certainly been repaired a few times, to reinforce it we've added some box section in the lattice but the plan is to replace it with a new brass signal.

 

[dunwurken]

This signal controls the entry into the loco yard, colliery line or the carriage siding. From what we can see it is all Ratio plastic parts, very fragile and showing it's age. From some of the adhesive on it, it's certainly been repaired a few times, to reinforce it we've added some box section in the lattice but the plan is to replace it with a new brass signal.

On another forum there was an interesting and slighty heated discussion regarding the pros and cons of conservation / restoration / refurbishment etc. of heritage arefacts and and I was reminded of it when I read about your problem signal.  In this other place the discussion was actually about returning heritage locomotives to running order but could equally apply to the repair or replace conundrum confronting you with this signal.   Needless to say views ranged from don't touch a thing as you are then destroying the work of the original creator and builder through yes, fit a new motor / chassis / bogie etc but retain the original to, do whatever is necessary as that is what the full size railway restoration guys do! 

Whatever you do you are between a rock and a hard place but I would be interested in learning what your guidelines / policies are regarding the conservation of Borchester and the repairs and replacements that will undoubtedly be required in the future.

Malcolm

[60526]

Malcolm,

Good question. If you have got more than 5 minutes - Our understanding from talking to past operators of the layout is that things didn't always stay the same. Our primary objective is to exhibit the layout, this is what the Dyer family wanted when we aquired the layout. Secondly the layout must function correctly and be operated to one of Franks timetables. We don't have any of the orginal stock, so what we do use matches the types that would have operated in this area, and as I've explained earlier we are matching the types that Frank used on the layout.

As far as conservation goes, we will replace when necessary like for like, by that I mean a brass signal will match in design an earlier plastic one. We've replaced a few point components but you would not notice this, same bulhead rail and soldered construction. We don't have the original station signal box or goods shed, the plan is that these will be replicated in time from photos and luckily for us Frank wrote a magazine article on the goods shed and provided a detail drawing. The majority of wiring under the layout has been replaced, some of it was 240V AC into chock blocks, some of the other wiring probably came from the 1950's. We were having problems with spurious voltages turning up in places that it shouldn't, so had to get a grip on the problem and replace it. Because of deformation of the platform canopy(s), we have used most of the original parts but replaced the main sheet used. Apart from a different coat of paint it looks the same. Some of the coupling ramps were causing problems, so the offending ones have been removed, but the intention is to replace these at a later date. The Wellow Park station platforms were originally made from perspex, maybe through exposure to sunlight at our end this deformed to such an extent that we could not get it back into shape, so the whole station is being rebuilt to the same plan as the original. Backscene, oh dear, the jury is out on this. Personally I don't want to replace it, it does look its age, but the side you cannot see which holds some of the stock is not exactly in good condition, it's on the list to do but perhaps on the back burner. I might take up paint classes to see if we could gently overpaint some of the bad areas.

So I'd say that we are carrying out sympathetic restoration as we go with a bit of replication on the way. There was a comment made elsewhere that the layout looked tired. We've thought about this, most layout look clean, BM looks dirty, it depicts a 1950'a scene set in a coal mining area, dirty is right, not clean. The same goes for the stock we use, we were lambasted for having weathered locos and stock, we can't win, you have to realise that some of the original 1970's models were weathered?

[t-b-g]

I have similar questions running through my mind with Buckingham.

 

Peter Denny was continually changing and adding to the layout. The last thing he did, which was still in progress when he died, was to replace the original trees with "sea moss" ones.

 

I had a long chat with Denny family about what I should or shouldn't do and their answer was " Do what Dad would have done".

 

This means that if an item wears out or requires repairs, I am at my own discretion as to what needs to be done. I am lucky in that most things on Buckingham were made from bits and pieces of scrap material and most of the construction techniques have been explained in detail. So if, for example, a fence made from old cereal packets falls apart, as several have, I can easily replace them with new ones made from cereal packets.

 

I will probably continue with the tree upgrades, either putting new foliage on the old trees or perhaps replacing them with "sea moss". They really have suffered over the years and many are little more than stumpy twigs now.

 

There are a couple of locos that I have actually repainted, mainly because the original paint was worn through to bare metal through years of handling and the lettering had almost vanished. They have been hand painted and lined, rather than using a spray and transfers and the lettering has been done to match how they looked on photos of 50 years ago. The liveries are not correct for GCR and one loco doesn't even carry a number but I have recreated them as he liveried them.

 

A few signals are damaged and I am working through them, hopefully creating "splints" from thin brass shim, which can be stuck over breaks in wooden posts.

 

Perhaps the biggest project has been the rewiring of Grandborough Junction, now nearly completed. This has been done using all the original controls but with a highly simplified and more logical wiring arrangement. We have, at last, been able to have a running session with trains going from the fiddle yard to Grandborough and back.

 

In the last couple of weeks our attention has turned to Buckingham and I am pleased to say that about 80% of it still works with the original wiring, so my plan is to keep the original wiring there as long as we can trace the fault in the other 20%, which may just be one wire adrift somewhere. I don't understand the wiring, which is highly complex and unconventional but if it works, I will leave well alone.

 

The baseboard join between Buckingham and Grandborough was connected this evening and although the track needs some attention I am hoping that it won't be too long before trains are running all the way through from the fiddle yard to Buckingham.

 

Despite the hours of effort and considerable expense involved in building the shed, I still feel highly honoured to be able to spend my time and effort on getting my all time favourite layout back up and running again.

 

What I won't be doing is carrying out any major alterations to the layout, the stock or the timetable. The track plan is now frozen as it is and I don't intend to add any new stock or even replace what is there unless I really have to. One or two locos may get new mechanisms but I will keep the old ones, so that they can be put back if it ever gets to the stage where the layout ceases to be deemed capable of being operational. If that ever happens, I am not expecting it to be during my custodianship but many years in the future! 

 

Tony

Edited February 12, 2014 by t-b-g

[Izzy]

Whether we like it or not time marches on and everything that exits degrades as it does. What was once new and pristine becomes old, tired, and aged, and I think that the best that can be achieved with any layout of whatever age and condition is to try and keep it in a reasonable working condition, replacing, repairing, and upgrading items as and when needed. If it's your own layout in the sense that you originated it then the decisions as to how to do this are purely yours.

 

With 'classic' ones such as BM and Buckingham that have been inherited from their original owners then I would think that attempting to follow the general spirit of their construction and use is all that anyone could be reasonably expected to do. If Frank Dyer or Peter Denny were still here today I am sure they would be not only repairing but replacing items as necessary, using new upgraded ones and new construction techniques as and when appropriate. After all they were great innovators of their time, and a reason why they and their layouts are held in such high esteem and affection. I am sure they would, like myself, feel nothing but the greatest admiration towards those who have willingly taken on the task of keeping their layouts 'alive and working' for the benefit of the rest of us who remember them so well and gave us the inspiration for our own modelling.

 

Izzy

[coachmann]

The Borchester that inspired me and many others was like Coronation Street in that both were ground-breakers in the early 1960s and those of us in't north west could readily identify with both. The station buildings had a Great Northern flavour and the locos and coaches were GNR and LNER. While GWR layouts came and went, this was the first time I has seen industrial grime modelled. There were no Methfix transfers in those far off days and Mr.Dyer used white Letraset Gil Sans on his locos and overpainted them in cream or yellow. At this distance in time I cannot remember if Borchester appeared in Model Railway News, Railway Modeller or Model Railway Constructor.

[APOLLO]

Model Railway Constructor had a few articles entitled "The Locomotives of Borchester". I have them, somewhere !!.

 

Brit15

[NHY 581]

I would echo the sentiments voiced above. We must remember that Peter Denny, Frank Dyer and of course others, were modellers very much of their time, if not ahead of their time in so many ways.

The appearance of these layouts should be maintained but they have to function, therefore as parts wear out they need two be replaced so that future generations can enjoy them.

Now in the great scheme of things this is such a small issue. But in the world of model railways, British model railways, these layouts are, arguably of course, historical artifacts, but they have to work to demonstrate the skill of the original builders.

All credit therefore, to these individuals who have taken it upon themselves today maintain these layouts for the benefit of future modellers....and exhibit then to boot!!

 

Rob

Edited February 12, 2014 by nhy581

[dunwurken]

Malcolm,

Good question. If you have got more than 5 minutes - Our understanding from talking to past operators of the layout is that things didn't always stay the same. Our primary objective is to exhibit the layout, this is what the Dyer family wanted when we aquired the layout. Secondly the layout must function correctly and be operated to one of Franks timetables. We don't have any of the orginal stock, so what we do use matches the types that would have operated in this area, and as I've explained earlier we are matching the types that Frank used on the layout.

As far as conservation goes, we will replace when necessary like for like, by that I mean a brass signal will match in design an earlier plastic one. We've replaced a few point components but you would not notice this, same bulhead rail and soldered construction. We don't have the original station signal box or goods shed, the plan is that these will be replicated in time from photos and luckily for us Frank wrote a magazine article on the goods shed and provided a detail drawing. The majority of wiring under the layout has been replaced, some of it was 240V AC into chock blocks, some of the other wiring probably came from the 1950's. We were having problems with spurious voltages turning up in places that it shouldn't, so had to get a grip on the problem and replace it. Because of deformation of the platform canopy(s), we have used most of the original parts but replaced the main sheet used. Apart from a different coat of paint it looks the same. Some of the coupling ramps were causing problems, so the offending ones have been removed, but the intention is to replace these at a later date. The Wellow Park station platforms were originally made from perspex, maybe through exposure to sunlight at our end this deformed to such an extent that we could not get it back into shape, so the whole station is being rebuilt to the same plan as the original. Backscene, oh dear, the jury is out on this. Personally I don't want to replace it, it does look its age, but the side you cannot see which holds some of the stock is not exactly in good condition, it's on the list to do but perhaps on the back burner. I might take up paint classes to see if we could gently overpaint some of the bad areas.

So I'd say that we are carrying out sympathetic restoration as we go with a bit of replication on the way. There was a comment made elsewhere that the layout looked tired. We've thought about this, most layout look clean, BM looks dirty, it depicts a 1950'a scene set in a coal mining area, dirty is right, not clean. The same goes for the stock we use, we were lambasted for having weathered locos and stock, we can't win, you have to realise that some of the original 1970's models were weathered?

 

I have similar questions running through my mind with Buckingham.

 

Peter Denny was continually changing and adding to the layout. The last thing he did, which was still in progress when he died, was to replace the original trees with "sea moss" ones.

 

I had a long chat with Denny family about what I should or shouldn't do and their answer was " Do what Dad would have done".

 

This means that if an item wears out or requires repairs, I am at my own discretion as to what needs to be done. I am lucky in that most things on Buckingham were made from bits and pieces of scrap material and most of the construction techniques have been explained in detail. So if, for example, a fence made from old cereal packets falls apart, as several have, I can easily replace them with new ones made from cereal packets.

 

I will probably continue with the tree upgrades, either putting new foliage on the old trees or perhaps replacing them with "sea moss". They really have suffered over the years and many are little more than stumpy twigs now.

 

There are a couple of locos that I have actually repainted, mainly because the original paint was worn through to bare metal through years of handling and the lettering had almost vanished. They have been hand painted and lined, rather than using a spray and transfers and the lettering has been done to match how they looked on photos of 50 years ago. The liveries are not correct for GCR and one loco doesn't even carry a number but I have recreated them as he liveried them.

 

A few signals are damaged and I am working through them, hopefully creating "splints" from thin brass shim, which can be stuck over breaks in wooden posts.

 

Perhaps the biggest project has been the rewiring of Grandborough Junction, now nearly completed. This has been done using all the original controls but with a highly simplified and more logical wiring arrangement. We have, at last, been able to have a running session with trains going from the fiddle yard to Grandborough and back.

 

In the last couple of weeks our attention has turned to Buckingham and I am pleased to say that about 80% of it still works with the original wiring, so my plan is to keep the original wiring there as long as we can trace the fault in the other 20%, which may just be one wire adrift somewhere. I don't understand the wiring, which is highly complex and unconventional but if it works, I will leave well alone.

 

The baseboard join between Buckingham and Grandborough was connected this evening and although the track needs some attention I am hoping that it won't be too long before trains are running all the way through from the fiddle yard to Buckingham.

 

Despite the hours of effort and considerable expense involved in building the shed, I still feel highly honoured to be able to spend my time and effort on getting my all time favourite layout back up and running again.

 

What I won't be doing is carrying out any major alterations to the layout, the stock or the timetable. The track plan is now frozen as it is and I don't intend to add any new stock or even replace what is there unless I really have to. One or two locos may get new mechanisms but I will keep the old ones, so that they can be put back if it ever gets to the stage where the layout ceases to be deemed capable of being operational. If that ever happens, I am not expecting it to be during my custodianship but many years in the future! 

 

Tony

Thank you both for your detailed replies.

 

I will not take up space on this, the Borchester, topic to give a detailed account of the problems that confronted myself with Dundreich, [another time and another place] but suffice to say I was smiling through both your replies as I recognised many of the problems you were / are confronted with and your response to them.  I have not had to untangle the spaghetti as PD Hancock latterly kept his wiring simple, very simple for which I, as a ‘non electrical’ person, am eternally grateful.  In one form or another many of the problems you have both faced have been faced by myself and dealt with in a similar manner and there is nothing in either of your replies I would not have done myself or would have done differently if I had been confronted with a similar problem.  For what it is worth, I heartily agree with your conservation / sympathetic restoration approach and am pleased to report Hancock is in step with Denny and Dyer.

 

Having examined Dundreich and found it could be made operable again the decision as to whether it should be stuffed and mounted as a static diorama or returned to an operable condition was an easy one to take and I am glad to say much appreciated by Dundreich’s former owner, Lee Marsh, who not only knew PDH very well but inherited Dundreich and the Craigshire rolling stock from him before in turn donating Dundreich to the Edinburgh & Lothians MRC.     Unlike yourselves, who could speak to and get some guidance from the Dyer and Denny families, PDH had no close family and Lee attached no conditions when he donated Dundreich.  That said I think it would be fair to say both Lee and others who have donated to the E&LMRC were hoping that if they donated to PD’s old club the artefacts would be cherished and cared for and I know Lee is pleased with what we have done so far.

 

Something that is not a problem for me is running the layout to a timetable.  If there was one for the third re-incarnation of Craigshire it has not survived.  What we do know is that narrow gauge trains arriving at Dundreich from Craig were supposed to be reversed and sent to back via a junction [grand word for a set of points!] towards Mertonford as Dundreich was a dead end.  For numerous reasons this method of operation is not currently a practical proposition [although it may be possible in the future depending on how far the rebuilding of Craigshire is taken] so the track arrangement at Dundreich was discreetly altered to accommodate through running.  Before I get hung, drawn and quartered I would add that at the time Craigshire was broken up one of the incomplete alterations was the turning of Dundreich into a through station so in some ways we merely completed something PDH had started.  One thing I am doing as I go along is recording the work with before and after photographs and a making a note of the reasoning behind the changes.   That I appreciate may be impracticable for larger layouts.

 

I said in an earlier post we I seem to have got off lightly with Dundreich but the remainder of Craigshire is much more of a problem.  It is not a case of sympathetic restoration but complete rebuilding as only the buildings, well most of them [anyone seen Peter Allans factory?], a bundle of 2^nd hand track, the glass for Craig harbour and scenic details survive, enough to tempt one to do it but enough missing to give one serious doubts about proceeding.   The question is very much on the back burner for the time being.

 

Like Tony I feel highly honoured to be able to spend time working on a layout I greatly admired whilst an impressionable youth.  I sometimes have to pinch myself that I am actually running my own models on the hallowed tracks of the Craig and Mertonford and to have had access to the original rolling stock for the 009 Society’s 40^th Anniversary bash last year was just the icing on the cake.   The time and effort put into getting Dundreich operable for that event was most rewarding and whilst further work, mostly of a cosmetic nature, is required I am, for the time being, cataloguing books and papers that once belonged to PDH.  I then need to go through the various smaller scenic items, mechanisms, loco and rolling stock parts and other artefacts stored in PD’s ‘spares’ drawers if nothing else just to ascertain what is there.   PDH threw nothing away!  Many years of fun ahead!

 

Malcolm

[60526]

Just to give this topic a boot, Borchester Market has a couple of outings coming up. It will be appearing at the Newhaven & District MRC exhibition which this year will be held at Heron Park Academy (formerly Highfield School), Dallington Road, Eastbourne, East Sussex BN22 9EE on 25th and 26th of October, 10 - 5 on Saturday, 10 - 4 on Sunday), Its a 5 min walk from Hampden Park Station on the Lewis-Eastbourne line. It will also be appearing at the Spalding MRC show at the Springfields Event Centre, Camelgate, Spalding, PE12 6ET on 15th and 16th November. For one of the very few times that the layout has been up for a long period we're doing some operator training at the moment and trying out a couple new locos. The layout is behaving itself touch wood, we've a signal to repair/replace after Warley last year and the trackwork in the GC fiddleyard is being remodelled/replaced again, we wanted to scratch build the pointwork but time is a problem so it will be Peco for the time being.

[60526]

Just to give you an update. The Hampden Park and Spalding exhibitions went ok, the layout behaved itself, one point blade in the GN fiddleyard arrivals didn't want to play and an old wire polarity switch decided to do it's own thing, once we found out what and where it was to correct it, things were ok. One of the team, Tony Walmsley, (he used to know Frank Dyer when Frank lived in Caerphilly) took some photos at the exhibitions and these can be found at -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/75514026@N03/sets/72157649004452418/

Just to give you a bit of narration to some of the photos

This 08 is the station pilot. Frank Dyer originally had a Drewry shunter as his station pilot, we have got a Bmann 04 which has been tried but the gear cover on the underside of the chassis causes problems over the uncouplers. We then used a Bmann 08 which was quite smooth but had problems with wheel quartering, so we now use this Hornby 08. As part of the exhibition timetable it has to do a lot of shunting and so far has never let us down, it's a good model.

 

Hopefully I will come up with a better photo later, it was a bit dull, but this is the replacement GC fiddleyard, didn't want to but we ended up with Peco points, track and Seep point motors. Tried the SM4 with the spring on the original 3 way we had but it didn't do what it said on the box, so we replaced the point with a more conventional Seep motor. All the sidings are operated by diode matrix, makes life far easier for operation. What can you see, a couple of Bmann Cravens, Bmann Derby Lwt, Gibson Pom-Pom, Craftsman A5, Hby Patriot, Hby L1 and Bmann J39. Perhaps the Patriot looks out of place but they were seen around the Sheffield area, for an exhibition it is an attractive model, runs well and has no trouble coming up the bank through Wellow halt, a reliable model. It's replaced a Bmann B1 which got a touch of the wheel quartering problem, for the second time, so it was withdrawn never to return.

 

Here is a better photo of the entrance gantry, scratchbuilt, probably using parts from older signals, an amazing bit of modelling. One of the cords on the gantry broke during the Hampden Park exhition and our signalling engineer Ray Warner had a tough time effecting a permenant repair.

 

Now down into the depths of what you do not normally see. This is taken from underneath by the GC arrival/departure sidings. On the left is the lines going up to Wellow halt, the gradient starts immediately after the arr/dep points which the camera is sitting over. Above you is a Bmann BSK at the end of the GN fiddleyard departure line, straight ahead is the scissor crossing into the GC fyard, right to the loco sidings and turntable, left to the holding sidings.

 

This is Wellow Halt, looking a bit sorry for itself at the moment, we are in the process of rebuilding it for the nth time. I'm sure that you are totally enthused by the fast approaching Hby class 31, nothing to do with the fact that it is mine, but take a look at the backscene behind the station -

 

This is what you don't see behind it. There are 3 sidings on a sharp gradient behind the angled back scene, this is where the colliery coal trains are stored. You can get about 10 16T minerals in each siding, we could use a loco to pull them out but usually they are hand shunted out and reversed into the main GN fiddleyard before being coupled up together with an 01, 02, 04 or Sulzer class 24 on the front as a departure from the Colliery around the Market Station viaduct to Wellow Junction and back into the GN fyard from whence it came. Brilliant idea. Interestingly the points around the colliery end of the GN fyard are original fibre based points with the steel staples that the track is soldered to. Initially we had some problems in this area but a clean with a fibre pen, a hot iron and an argument with some Frys flux solved that.

 

A general view of the GN fyard behind the backscene with some of the stock stored up.

 

This is Frank Dyers scratchbuilt scissor crossing come double/single/3way point arrangement at the GN fyard arrival/departure area. All the points are operated by ex RAF solenoids, GPO switches and controlled by GPO relays, If it works, leave it alone, but we've rewired everything around here but back into the same place that it was removed from without questioning any of the logic. Absolutely brilliant.

 

And to finish with a PDK D11 waiting patiently to depart from the GN fyard, At the moment the majority of locos on the layout, especially the kit built locos, are owned and have either been made from kits or are enhanced RTR and been weathered by Ian Forsyth. Of course they are all rubbish, all run smoothly, weathered well, it makes you sick. I'm not jeallous of course.

[sammyboy]

It's great to have somebody take photos of behind the scenes of this truly fantastic & inspirational layout, that hidden point work and crossings looks so complicated!

 

Sammyboy (The one who started this topic)

[60526]

It's great to have somebody take photos of behind the scenes of this truly fantastic & inspirational layout, that hidden point work and crossings looks so complicated!

 

Sammyboy (The one who started this topic)

Sammyboy,

Looking back a few years now and probably on this forum somebody suggested writing a book about Frank Dyer, or about him and his layouts, trouble is they failed to mention who was going to do it? I know that some people don't like RMweb and at times I've got fed up with some of the rubbish I've read about the layout on it, but got to say that I'm pleased that you did start this topic, instead of a book the team can keep anyone interested in the layout informed of well anything about it. I'll mention again, the pointwork out the back in the GN fiddleyard is an exhibit itself, if we are exhibiting the layout and anyone shows an interest in viewing around this area then a couple of bottles of Black Sheep would normally give you admittance. We came away dry from Spalding but a few people took up the offer. The layout will be set-up again in our clubrooms next Wednesday, I'll look for something else to highlight. On the list of things to do is a coupe of signal replacements, a better photo of the GC fiddleyard (I know that you're all in awe of the workmanship on it but don't get carried away), finishing off Wellow Halt station, point 9B which is the main point in the Market station goods yard immediately opposite the end of platform 4 really needs replacing, our Gibson Pom-Pom decided that it didn't want to go through the point, a couple of photos will show you why. From the number of "Likes" that have come up against this topic more than a few are interested so we will see where it goes. The next and only booked appearance of the layout will be Wakefield November 2015, however we have been asked about attending a couple of other shows, one over in Suffolk and the other north and slightly east of Wakefield, no not Leeds, but with 6 operators Borchester Market for an exhibition manager can't be a cheap exhibit, but whilst we can't do much about that I would say that with operating one of Frank Dyers timetables with a few additions we do on the whole put on a good show, can you think of a layout where so much shunting goes on?

 

Charlie

[dunwurken]

Charlie

 

Superb.  Great to see the backside of the layout.  Keep up the superb work and above all exhibiting. 

 

It has been suggested to me I should write a book on P D Hancock and the Craig and Mertonford but those suggesting it failed to realise I am no great shakes with the keyboard so I passed on that preferring like yourself to keep matters ticking along on the appropriate forums. 

 

Worry not about the rubbish you may read about the layout.  The layouts of Dyer, Denny, Hancock etc were products of their time as the hobby moved out of the dark ages into a period of enlightenment.  I find the adverse comments are normally borne out of ignorance by younger modellers who do not realise the difficulties faced by the Dyers, Dennys and Hancocks of this world who post WW2 had little of quality [by today's standards] ready to run, few kits or indeed parts to assist scratchbuilding.  Younger members of the hobby in this day and age of instant gratification are used to being able to buy virtually everything they need for a layout from one manufacture or another; not so in the 1950/60s.   I find that if they take the time to find out a bit more about the trials and tribulations faced by these modellers then they are a bit more appreciative of what is being exhibited to them.

 

Malcolm 

Edited December 5, 2014 by dunwurken

[Horsetan]

....the famous gantry with the platform 3 indicator on....

I'm so glad that none of the indicator bulbs have failed. They would be fairly difficult to replace - I seem to recall Frank referred to them as "surgical bulbs" working off 1.5v or similar. Modern LEDs wouldn't give the same sort of glow.

[johnarcher]

 

Worry not about the rubbish you may read about the layout.  The layouts of Dyer, Denny, Hancock etc were products of their time as the hobby moved out of the dark ages into a period of enlightenment.  I find the adverse comments are normally borne out of ignorance by younger modellers who do not realise the difficulties faced by the Dyers, Dennys and Hancocks of this world who post WW2 had little of quality [by today's standards] ready to run, few kits or indeed parts to assist scratchbuilding.  Younger members of the hobby in this day and age of instant gratification are used to being able to buy virtually everything they need for a layout from one manufacture or another; not so in the 1950/60s.   I find that if they take the time to find out a bit more about the trials and tribulations faced by these modellers then they are a bit more appreciative of what is being exhibited to them.

 

Malcolm 

It seems to me there were two strands in that move out of the dark ages -  

1 More realistic actual railway models, and more realistic operation - Dyer and Denny especially, and

2 The placing of the railway in the landscape setting (where that is more than a bit of scenery around the edge of the railway) - Hancock, but more so Ahern and Iliffe Stokes. (the latter, I think, isn't listed often enough in this company).

Whether you find one group more inspiring is a matter of taste I suppose (for me - 2.)

Did anyone really combine both things fully before Pendon?

Your point about the challenges of modelling at that time applies to them all I think, though.

Edited December 9, 2014 by johnarcher

[dunwurken]

It seems to me there were two strands in that move out of the dark ages -  

1 More realistic actual railway models, and more realistic operation - Dyer and Denny especially, and

2 The placing of the railway in the landscape setting (where that is more than a bit of scenery around the edge of the railway) - Hancock, but more so Ahern and Iliffe Stokes. (the latter, I think, isn't listed often enough in this company).

Whether you find one group more inspiring is a matter of taste I suppose (for me - 2.)

Did anyone really combine both things fully before Pendon?

Your point about the challenges of modelling at that time applies to them all I think, though.

I had not thought of it like that but your two strands theory is an interesting one and has a lot of merit. 

Hancock was a 'disciple' of John Ahern. Philip's opening words in his book Narrow Gauge Adventure [1st Edn.1975] are "The person really responsible for Craigshire and the Craig and Mertonford Light Railway is the late John H Ahern.  It was his articles..........which fired my schoolboy imagination......"  He was also unapologetic about his artistic approach to modelling and his freelance style.  A couple of quotes from the RM March 1954 "In my own case I have been guided by a desire to produce a scenic picture acting as a frame to a small narrow gauge railway.........In short, I resigned myself to being a 'model basher' pure and simple and have made no effort to stick to scale or prototype........."  That said, later when Craigshire was moved back in time to 1912 he started producing standard gauge stock appropriate to the period and setting however he would still, on ocassion, go off at a tangent!!

I fully agree with you Stokes should be given more credit and I think is in danger of being overlooked.

I had thought I had made it clear that the challenges of modelling at that time applied to them all.  If that was not clear let me say I do agree with you the challeges applied to all three.

Malcolm

[johnarcher]

I had not thought of it like that but your two strands theory is an interesting one and has a lot of merit. 

Hancock was a 'disciple' of John Ahern. Philip's opening words in his book Narrow Gauge Adventure [1st Edn.1975] are "The person really responsible for Craigshire and the Craig and Mertonford Light Railway is the late John H Ahern.  It was his articles..........which fired my schoolboy imagination......"  He was also unapologetic about his artistic approach to modelling and his freelance style.  A couple of quotes from the RM March 1954 "In my own case I have been guided by a desire to produce a scenic picture acting as a frame to a small narrow gauge railway.........In short, I resigned myself to being a 'model basher' pure and simple and have made no effort to stick to scale or prototype........."  That said, later when Craigshire was moved back in time to 1912 he started producing standard gauge stock appropriate to the period and setting however he would still, on ocassion, go off at a tangent!!

I fully agree with you Stokes should be given more credit and I think is in danger of being overlooked.

I had thought I had made it clear that the challenges of modelling at that time applied to them all.  If that was not clear let me say I do agree with you the challeges applied to all three.

Malcolm

Thanks for the agreement!

I think the 'two strands' were really quite separate, there's little scenic interest in Dyer or Denny (a bit more in Buckingham. Not that either did it badly, there just wasn't much - it was a border rather than a railway in landscape), which is why, excellent though it is, I have never found Borchester such an inspiration as others have.

On the other hand neither Madder Valley nor Craig are famous for scrupulously accurate model stock, and the railway side of Stokes is pretty much ignored.

Which is why I wondered if there is any pre-Pendon example of the two approaches really coming together.

[Talltim]

Were any of the Borchesters at the MRJ exhibition at Central Hall in 1990?