Point motors

[PjKing1]

Can anyone give me some advice please, I'm thinking of going down the line (pardon the pun) of dcc point motors, I'm using peco code 75 points and an I'm about to order a prodigy advance2. I'm guessing these can be powered off the bus wires but do they need additional switches and are they easy to install. Sorry if this topic has been covered and thanks in advance.

 

Paul

[Nigelcliffe]

Its probably been covered before....

1. You need an accessory decoder to operate the point motor.  Some motors include a decoder within them, but many do not. 
2. Some designs of accessory decoder (and motor) will take power from the bus wires, but others require a separate power supply.  Really depends.  For a small-medium layout, taking power from the DCC bus should be OK if the accessory decoder is well designed.
3. Additional switches fall into two areas;
   • switches to change polarity of turnout crossings (frogs).  You should fit those, 
   • switches which can provide local input to the turnout to change the turnout.  Those are optional, some accessory decoders support them. 

 

There is a significant advantage to running two DCC bus wires, one for track, and another for accessories.  And, fit each bus with its own cut-out device.  Then a short circuit on the track does not stop the turnout mechanism from working.   ( A word of caution, a friend with a Prodigy used the commonly recommended PSX power breaker.  His Prodigy was damaged and had to go back to Gaugemaster for rectification.  Exact cause unknown, but interaction between the two cut-out methods may have contributed. )

 

 

Finally, before you do all of this,  are you **really certain*** that you want to control turnouts by punching numbers into the Prodigy handset ?    Whilst some other systems will let you add other control panels (hardware switches, real lever frame, or computer software), the Prodigy doesn't have those options. 

 

 

 

-  Nigel

[PjKing1]

Its probably been covered before....

 

• You need an accessory decoder to operate the point motor.  Some motors include a decoder within them, but many do not. 
• Some designs of accessory decoder (and motor) will take power from the bus wires, but others require a separate power supply.  Really depends.  For a small-medium layout, taking power from the DCC bus should be OK if the accessory decoder is well designed.
• Additional switches fall into two areas;

• switches to change polarity of turnout crossings (frogs).  You should fit those, 
• switches which can provide local input to the turnout to change the turnout.  Those are optional, some accessory decoders support them. 

 

There is a significant advantage to running two DCC bus wires, one for track, and another for accessories.  And, fit each bus with its own cut-out device.  Then a short circuit on the track does not stop the turnout mechanism from working.   ( A word of caution, a friend with a Prodigy used the commonly recommended PSX power breaker.  His Prodigy was damaged and had to go back to Gaugemaster for rectification.  Exact cause unknown, but interaction between the two cut-out methods may have contributed. )

 

 

Finally, before you do all of this,  are you **really certain*** that you want to control turnouts by punching numbers into the Prodigy handset ?    Whilst some other systems will let you add other control panels (hardware switches, real lever frame, or computer software), the Prodigy doesn't have those options. 

 

 

 

-  Nigel

 

Thanks Nigel, it's pretty new to me an I'm diving in at the deep end, I'm quite happy having a separate control panel for signals and turnouts, I'll even considered using a separate dc circuit if that's easier just thought dcc would be the best option. The reason I'm goin for the prodigy is that it looks a good controller which allows the reading and changing of cv's.

 

Paul

[Gary H]

 

 

 

Finally, before you do all of this,  are you **really certain*** that you want to control turnouts by punching numbers into the Prodigy handset ?    Whilst some other systems will let you add other control panels (hardware switches, real lever frame, or computer software), the Prodigy doesn't have those options. 

 

 

 

-  Nigel

Indeed, believe me, it can be a pain in the heat of the moment when running trains to have to punch an accessory address into the handset / throttle when on the fly!

My set-up allows me to do this if want to but I never do! Instead Il just hit a momentary contact button on a track diagram panel to change the switch.

I use Peco Code 83 points with the over centre spring removed and Tortoise slow action switch machines. These are in turn controlled by NCE "Switch-its" DCC accessory decoders which take their power from the main track bus. Each switch it will work 2 Tortoise machines. I have them wired back to two separate panels (one for each side of the layout) so they can be operated by the panel buttons, there also LED's to show what position the switch is laying, ie normal or reverse.

Best advice I could give is to maybe look into a DCC set-up that will give this flexibility. NCE DCC is one that does.

[PjKing1]

Thanks again Nigel, it seemed so easy at first!! It's making 'wire in tube' look so simple, just want to be sure before I dive in again and regret something so want to get it right.

 

Paul

[Nigelcliffe]

Paul,

I think you were replying to Gary, rather than me.

 

It sounds like DCC control of turnouts isn't a good solution for you. That is fine, control them as for DC operation, be it finger-poke, wire in tube, electric panel, or whatever. It will almost certainly be cheaper!

 

Only thing I do strongly recommend is that you wire the blades and crossing (frog) correctly, with blades isolated from crossing and crossing electrically switched with the movement of the tie-bar. This is often called "DCC Friendly" but is really "proper quality wiring for DC and DCC".

[PjKing1]

Paul,

I think you were replying to Gary, rather than me.

It sounds like DCC control of turnouts isn't a good solution for you. That is fine, control them as for DC operation, be it finger-poke, wire in tube, electric panel, or whatever. It will almost certainly be cheaper!

Only thing I do strongly recommend is that you wire the blades and crossing (frog) correctly, with blades isolated from crossing and crossing electrically switched with the movement of the tie-bar. This is often called "DCC Friendly" but is really "proper quality wiring for DC and DCC".

 

Morning, yes sorry about that Nigel and Gary, I'm thinking of operating the points on dc and wire the blades and frog, I know some people say it doesn't need doing but going on experience in the past it better doing it from the start rather than after the ballasting when they stop working properly.

 

Thanks again guys. Paul

[roundhouse]

One big benefit going DCC control of the turnouts is that you can operate the layout from different positions rather than having to keep going back to a control panel.

 

However taking on too much DCC control of the layout straight away when new to it may be too much for many.

You could go down the route of wiring the turnouts to a temporary control panel thrn at a later stage convert them to DCC control.

The does mean some rewiring though.

Went down this route until I had learnt the basics of the DCC system von one layout.

 

Ian

[silverlink]

Hi Paul,

From my own experience there's no way I will operate points via DCC, we did think it was a great idea at our club to activate the points on our club layout digital but this ended in disaster. Whilst the points worked ok via the use of NCE Switch8 decoders working alongside our Lenz 100 and Cobalt motors it took far to long to input and switch the point. Our layout had 30+ points on it and another problem we uncounted was trying to remember each points number and which way the point was set and all this whilst operating trains.

I attach a picture of my panel on my exhibition layout 'Haymarket Cross' which is a full Digital engine shed operating over 100 locos and there is no way we could change the points anywhere near as quick digitally as we do manually with DPDT switches.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2012/post-4401-0-87849800-1331157849_thumb.jpg

Hope this is of help.

Ian H

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi Paul,

From my own experience there's no way I will operate points via DCC, we did think it was a great idea at our club to activate the points on our club layout digital but this ended in disaster. Whilst the points worked ok via the use of NCE Switch8 decoders working alongside our Lenz 100 and Cobalt motors it took far to long to input and switch the point. Our layout had 30+ points on it and another problem we uncounted was trying to remember each points number and which way the point was set and all this whilst operating trains.

I attach a picture of my panel on my exhibition layout 'Haymarket Cross' which is a full Digital engine shed operating over 100 locos and there is no way we could change the points anywhere near as quick digitally as we do manually with DPDT switches.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2012/post-4401-0-87849800-1331157849_thumb.jpg

Hope this is of help.

Ian H

 

Therein lies the problem with generalisations: Because one method of control of turnouts is poor (punching in numbers to a Lenz 100 throttle), it does not mean that DCC control of turnouts is poor.   

 

There are a lot of solutions where turnouts are controlled by DCC which work wonderfully.  Some cheap, some expensive.  Examples would include:  Roco Route-Control (I think no longer made),  on-screen diagrams provided by ESU ECoS and Roco Z21 (the Z21 will let you put track control elements on a photo of your layout!),  hardware switch panels through NCE's "minipanel" and numerous third-party hardware panel devices for Digitrax' LocoNet system,  modular control panel "bricks" from Uhlenbrock (also mostly compatible with Digitrax),  computer and tablet touch screens  (now far cheaper than the hardware to make your own traditional panel for all but the simplest layouts),  I could go on...   Almost all of those will also allow the throttle keypad to work at the same time for those who want that method. 

 

The photo you provided of Haymarket Cross' panel could be implemented with many of the methods described above. 

 

I agree, for the vast majority of users, punching in turnout numbers to a DCC handset is not a good solution.   A few people do master it, they remember the sequences for their layout, or the combination of their layout design, the turnout numbering and handset make things acceptable.   Some handsets are terribly long winded to change a turnout, the Lenz 100 is one of the worst I've used in that respect;  it is logical, consistent, and an excessive number of key presses are required to achieve a simple turnout change.   Other handsets which will work with a Lenz setup are a lot easier, and some other brands a lot quicker for turnout operation.   

 

 

However,  back at Paul, the original poster.   He said "Prodigy" as his controller, and that controller won't allow any of the solutions in my long list above.   Unfortunately the MRC/Gaugemaster Prodigy range is a somewhat closed system, with hardly any options for expansion of the controlling devices. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Suzie]

While not recommended to use the prodigy with DCC points operation it can be done, I know of two exhibition layouts that use the prodigy, one small with the handset to control the points manually and another with the MRC software and computer interface. If you have a small layout which you know well it does not take long to get used to it in practice.

 

That said I concur with the above advice to get an open system so that you can use a tablet or similar with a track diagram or route buttons to set routes. A lot of people do like the prodigy for driving the trains and there is no reason why you cannot use a separate DCC system like a Sprog for the points and signals if none of the open systems appeal. You will really need a Sprog anyway for CV programming if you want to program any decoders that require complex programming rather than rely on the CV programming capability of the prodigy.

[traction]

 

However,  back at Paul, the original poster.   He said "Prodigy" as his controller, and that controller won't allow any of the solutions in my long list above.   Unfortunately the MRC/Gaugemaster Prodigy range is a somewhat closed system, with hardly any options for expansion of the controlling devices. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

Hi Nigel, Paul does actually say he's looking at ordering the Prodigy advanced squared, that can operate points, but as you quite rightly said it's still not the best solution.

 

My solution on my layout was to use the SMD82 now replaced with the SMD84( although this won't operate Cobalt slow action point motors according to the instructions)

This can be programmed for route operation, each output can be operated by a switch or via the DCC controller.

Each of the 8 outputs can be set to operate a twin coil type of point motor or a slow action type( slow action type being the Tortoise only looking at the instructions!)

 

It does however take it's power from the DCC bus, which might be an issue for some, although I've never had any problems.

 

Like you say there are so many ways of doing it, I personally just found controlling the loco and then quickly trying to enter a point address very awkward.

Just thinking out loud, the original poster could buy the NCE PowerCab and also the mini panel and still have money left over to buy an accessory decoder instead of ordering the Prodigy!

That would be quite a good combination and give lots of flexibility.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[shibushe]

Nigel. There are lots of ways of installing point motors and in there operation.

From my point of view its all about running trains, I need things to be simple, and realy cant be bothered with accessory decoders,

xtra cost, more wires, or seperate switches

At first i used ZTC Motors, but found them to clunky in operation, and not always reliable.

I then changed to TT300s by trantronics. slow acting. With the connections available i also connect colour lights, very usefull has I can tell from a distance that the point has changed. No soldering either.

I still use a few ZTC in my hidden storage roads, the noise they make tells me its changed.

Each has its own Cv1 ID. a couple of button presses is all thats needed.

There are others on the market that are just as good, Tortoise, DCC Concepts.

[PjKing1]

Thanks guys for all your advice an help as it's been 20 years since I last did anything like this. I'm now more tempted towards the NCE power cab goin by what I've read up on it. As for the points and signals I'm happy running these off a separate circuit with there own switches (if I go for dc) but I really like the idea of running them off a tablet/phone or mini panel in dcc. Thanks again for all your invaluable advice.

 

Paul

[johnb]

I've come a bit late into this thread, but .......... I'm building a new layout and am doing the following:-

 

Control is an NCE Powercab.  Points, I have 11 inc a double slip and am using Peco with Tortoise controlled from 12vDC by DPDT switches. Six points are crossovers each pair controlled from one switch. The resultant switches are all in one line on the panel numbered and referring to a track diagram.

 

I did look at DCC points control but decided that I would go for the simple ( and cheaper) option by using direct point control rather than punching buttons.

 

Just my view on the subject

 

John

[silverlink]

Therein lies the problem with generalisations: Because one method of control of turnouts is poor (punching in numbers to a Lenz 100 throttle), it does not mean that DCC control of turnouts is poor.   

 

There are a lot of solutions where turnouts are controlled by DCC which work wonderfully.  Some cheap, some expensive.  Examples would include:  Roco Route-Control (I think no longer made),  on-screen diagrams provided by ESU ECoS and Roco Z21 (the Z21 will let you put track control elements on a photo of your layout!),  hardware switch panels through NCE's "minipanel" and numerous third-party hardware panel devices for Digitrax' LocoNet system,  modular control panel "bricks" from Uhlenbrock (also mostly compatible with Digitrax),  computer and tablet touch screens  (now far cheaper than the hardware to make your own traditional panel for all but the simplest layouts),  I could go on...   Almost all of those will also allow the throttle keypad to work at the same time for those who want that method. 

 

The photo you provided of Haymarket Cross' panel could be implemented with many of the methods described above. 

 

I agree, for the vast majority of users, punching in turnout numbers to a DCC handset is not a good solution.   A few people do master it, they remember the sequences for their layout, or the combination of their layout design, the turnout numbering and handset make things acceptable.   Some handsets are terribly long winded to change a turnout, the Lenz 100 is one of the worst I've used in that respect;  it is logical, consistent, and an excessive number of key presses are required to achieve a simple turnout change.   Other handsets which will work with a Lenz setup are a lot easier, and some other brands a lot quicker for turnout operation.   

 

 

However,  back at Paul, the original poster.   He said "Prodigy" as his controller, and that controller won't allow any of the solutions in my long list above.   Unfortunately the MRC/Gaugemaster Prodigy range is a somewhat closed system, with hardly any options for expansion of the controlling devices. 

 

 

- Nigel

Point taken Nigel,

As I don't have any experience of the systems you mention (other than Lenz) I still think via my panel I can change more points quicker than with a handset whatever the make whilst at the same time running locos. Cost wise in setting up my panel costs incurred are (per Tortoise point) 1xDPDT switch @ 53p & 2x Bi-directional 3mm led's @ 11p each. As I already have my Lenz 100 I would have to change to one of the systems you mentioned which I think would cost considerably more than 25 of the above components (the amount of points on my layout) From what I have read the ESU ECoS is one of the top digital systems available but costs around £500 well above the cost of the components used on my panel. Another point regarding my layout I sometimes have six operators running the layout and been able to see what everyone else is doing is paramount and as we alter switches each can see what the other is doing. From my own experience the biggest problem I've found with handset operation of points is remembering the numbers of all the points you have control over and for that you need some sort of panel whether its at layout level or on the wall. As soon as you look away from your handset to find what point needs changing with my system all you have to do is throw the switch game over.

I'm sure there are some very valid reasons for using the digital system but for me from my experience I stick with my panel.

Ian

[PjKing1]

I've come a bit late into this thread, but .......... I'm building a new layout and am doing the following:-

 

Control is an NCE Powercab.  Points, I have 11 inc a double slip and am using Peco with Tortoise controlled from 12vDC by DPDT switches. Six points are crossovers each pair controlled from one switch. The resultant switches are all in one line on the panel numbered and referring to a track diagram.

 

I did look at DCC points control but decided that I would go for the simple ( and cheaper) option by using direct point control rather than punching buttons.

 

Just my view on the subject

 

John

 

It does seem a lot easier, just don't want to regret something a few months down the line, as I stated a layout about a year ago diving in, I'm starting from scratch again though I I know I rushed it. I do middy be days of 'hand of god' point control ;-)

 

Paul

[PjKing1]

Sorry 'I do miss the' not 'I do middy be' damn predictive txt, maybe I shouldn't try iPhones with point control!!

 

Paul

[johnb]

I think that you've had a fair selection of views here, and at the end of the day, it's what suits you.

 

If you do go the DC switch route it won't cost too much as Sliverlink says above. Should you not like it, then it's not too much of a loss of financial investment to change to full DCC operation. Obviously It will take time though.

 

If you go the other way about it then the time and cost implications are largely reversed

 

In my case the layout is essentially a simple station throat setup that is 3.6M x 0.3M (12ft x 1ft in old money ) inc fiddle yard and is all that I feel that I want. It's a simple and effective solution that suits me. Others find the DCC route preferable.

 

regards

 

John

[PjKing1]

I think that you've had a fair selection of views here, and at the end of the day, it's what suits you.

 

If you do go the DC switch route it won't cost too much as Sliverlink says above. Should you not like it, then it's not too much of a loss of financial investment to change to full DCC operation. Obviously It will take time though.

 

If you go the other way about it then the time and cost implications are largely reversed

 

In my case the layout is essentially a simple station throat setup that is 3.6M x 0.3M (12ft x 1ft in old money ) inc fiddle yard and is all that I feel that I want. It's a simple and effective solution that suits me. Others find the DCC route preferable.

 

regards

 

John

It does seem a lot simpler, but just one thing I'm not sure about is if I go dc on point control can I change frog polarity using the point motor (I know only some point motors can do this) or would I still have to use a separate switch, an does dcc make that easier or any difference? That's my only concern I think I have, just trying to make things simpler. My layout which I'm planning now is basically a junction branching off to an old steam shed used to stable diesels, no double slips an up to now just one cross over.

 

Paul

[corax67]

Hi Paul - you appear to have 2 posts running on this topic at the moment on a slightly different tack.

 

What Nigel says about DCC point control via a Lenz handset being a fiddly operation is correct - my main DCC system is Lenz and i completely agree it is a potch but that didn't stop me setting up my layouts for DCC control.

 

I own one of the mythical Roco RouteControl units and it is an amazing bit of kit which is fully compatable with Lenz (ExpressNet) and simplifies things greatly but I also have a removable push-button panel which I can plug in if I have someone unfamiliar with the system helping me.

 

The main layout uses electrofrog points & Tortoise motors and frog polarity is maintained using the inbuilt switches - all of my motors are powered by a separate supply independent of the DCC bus - whilst the fiddle yard has Seep solenoid motors under insulfrog points with their inbuilt switches driving LED route indicators. My point decoders are a mix of Lenz LS100 & LS110 which are designed to be triggered by a switch or a command station instruction, hence the ability to have a removable panel.

 

If you use a motor like the Tortoise or Cobalt then you may use a simple toggle switch and have the point polarity fed from the inbuilt switches - all nice and neat with no need for additional decoders, which I think is what you are looking for. It also gives the option for you to add DCC control later on with minimal alterations should you wish to try that route since a suitable DCC accessory decoder will simply replace the toggle switch with everything else remaining as it is.

[johnb]

Yes frog switching is the same whether you use DC or DCC for the point motor. The Tortoise, Fulgurex and Lemaco all have the necessary switch built in, as do some Cobalts. The Peco and SEEP have it as a addtional switch that fits on the bottom of the motor.

 

DC or DCC point control makes NO difference to frog switching requirements, both have to switch the track current, which as you will be using DCC  on the track would be the same in both cases.

 

I am using Tortoise and the frog changeover switch is elecrically independent from the motor supply, as it is on the other motors. If I  were now to change to a DCC point motor control system using a accessory decoder, I would not need to do any changes/work on the frog switching that I have installed now. All I would be doing would be changing how the feed to the motor part of the device is arranged.

 

Hope that is now clearer.

 

John

[PjKing1]

Hi Paul - you appear to have 2 posts running on this topic at the moment on a slightly different tack.

What Nigel says about DCC point control via a Lenz handset being a fiddly operation is correct - my main DCC system is Lenz and i completely agree it is a potch but that didn't stop me setting up my layouts for DCC control.

I own one of the mythical Roco RouteControl units and it is an amazing bit of kit which is fully comparable with Lenz (ExpressNet) and simplifies things greatly but I also have a removable push-button panel which I can plug in if I have someone unfamiliar with the system helping me.

The main layout uses electrofrog points & Tortoise motors and frog polarity is maintained using the inbuilt switches - all of my motors are powered by a separate supply independent of the DCC bus - whilst the fiddle yard has Seep solenoid motors under insulfrog points with their inbuilt switches driving LED route indicators. My point decoders are a mix of Lenz LS100 & LS110 which are designed to be triggered by a switch or a command station instruction, hence the ability to have a removable panel.

If you use a motor like the Tortoise or Cobalt then you may use a simple toggle switch and have the point polarity fed from the inbuilt switches - all nice and neat with no need for additional decoders, which I think is what you are looking for. It also gives the option for you to add DCC control later on with minimal alterations should you wish to try that route since a suitable DCC accessory decoder will simply replace the toggle switch with everything else remaining as it is.

 

Think you've hit the nail on the head, think I thought I had to use dcc to do this and as my layout will be dcc with sound locos I thought this would be the best solution. All the advice from everyone has been great though, this side of layout building just scares the life out of me, so once I get this bit out the way I can carry on with what I think I'm a bit better doin (a lot will disagree ) an that's weathering loco's and scenics. Would like to say though the advice off this forum is fantastic for beignets like myself and hopefully one day 'll be able to give advice back.

 

Paul

[PACman]

It might be deemed at the entry end of the DCC market, but I use the Hornby Elite, with Accessory Decoders operating all my Peco points and Peco Point Motors, and control them from the RailMaster application, which gives me a graphical representation of the layout and pointwork; just tapping the relevant point on the diagram changes that point. I have had no issues with it on my layout, and the same mechanism can be expanded to switch other devices, like station lighting etc. too. I currently operate 22 points via RailMaster, and you can use it from a tablet (e.g. iPad) too.

[newbryford]

It might be deemed at the entry end of the DCC market, but I use the Hornby Elite, with Accessory Decoders operating all my Peco points and Peco Point Motors, and control them from the RailMaster application, which gives me a graphical representation of the layout and pointwork; just tapping the relevant point on the diagram changes that point. I have had no issues with it on my layout, and the same mechanism can be expanded to switch other devices, like station lighting etc. too. I currently operate 22 points via RailMaster, and you can use it from a tablet (e.g. iPad) too.

 

Rather than the Elite - how about using a Hornby e-link instead?

 

Cheers,

Mick