RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2015 I know I'm late to this discussion, but when I hear about very hard restoration projects. I find it so sad that no one took on D601 and the D61XX from Barry. There are locos that have been in similar states to that pair that are now runners. I remember in the early 90s putting 20096 on a low loader in Middlesbrough goods yard. If you opened the fuse box door you could see where the fan was supposed to be. ie no control gear or heads, its now back on the mainline. I appreciate that 45 stuff and the Barry pair would have been harder to find but its a lot easier than starting from scratch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted March 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2015 Why not donate it to a college for use in training a new generation of engineers in several aspects of rail engineering, or even better still start a new college to train people in restoration, they could learn old engineering which is now being lost as technology advances. like the 2ft gauge garratts waterman sent to crewe heritage centre with the same plan, they are still sat rusting away where they were off loaded about 5 years ago! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Come on guys the simple bottom line is there is too much saved in this country with locos coaches and wagons rusting away and being lost all over the country and for goodness sake there are eleven other class 45 locos preserved so its not like its the last chance to see one. Face the facts we cant save every single one just because it existed there is just so much money and even more importantly a finite amount of volunteers who want to come into the hobby. Its not negativity or being anti preservation its the simple cold hard bottom line buck stops here truth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 How ironic is that as of 2012, the latest I can find any info of this loco, Try here: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=474276&nseq=3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCR Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 like the 2ft gauge garratts waterman sent to crewe heritage centre with the same plan, they are still sat rusting away where they were off loaded about 5 years ago! http://prestonservices.co.uk/item/beyer-garratt-2-ft-gauge-locomotive/ Don't seem to be having much luck shifting this one either, it has been up for sale for some years now. Sorting out ownership would be the first hurdle to getting 45015 back up and running, if it's in the hands of a private individual then it's up to them who touches it, if it's in the hands of a presevation group it's up to them what resources go into it, if it's in the hands of a dedicated group, it can only mean good things for the loco and allow that group to do more with what resources they have. time to form a society. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Can we get the numbers of the former ACR garratts. Alfred County Railways in South Africa. The only prayer in hell 45015 really has is a private group taking ownership and doing what they want with the peak. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 These are the two NG16 garratts I am searching for. ACR garratt locomotives 139 and 142. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Cheese Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Sorting out ownership would be the first hurdle to getting 45015 back up and running, if it's in the hands of a private individual then it's up to them who touches it, if it's in the hands of a presevation group it's up to them what resources go into it, if it's in the hands of a dedicated group, it can only mean good things for the loco and allow that group to do more with what resources they have. 45015 is/was owned by a private individual whose name escapes me, but can easily be found on various forums if interested. The host railway took legal action relating to unpaid rent on the siding space it occupies some time ago, it was then reportedly off to a scrapyard but found to be more immobile than previously realised with scrapping on site the only realistic option left. See also 25244 at the K&ES Railway... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 See also 25244 at the K&ES Railway... Don't get me started on that one, he bought a ETHEL power unit to go in it- wrong gen type Pic taken 11yrs ago http://www.preserved-diesels.co.uk/2004/25244_6.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted March 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) 45015 is safe from the scrappy owing to asbestos in the boiler compartment.....people tresspassing and takings phots in and around the loco should mindful of this especially as potentially some of it is blue asbestos! to be fair robin it might have been the wrong gen type for that 25 but a 6lda power unit is not to be sniffed at......id love a spare set of heads for 26043 and at current 6k each from electroputere im going to need a lottery win to buy them!!!# you can bring a generator back from oblivion......but you cant fix a cracked flame face Edited March 12, 2015 by pheaton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 45015 is safe from the scrappy owing to asbestos in the boiler compartment.....people tresspassing and takings phots in and around the loco should mindful of this especially as potentially some of it is blue asbestos! Pic's I have were sent to me and any hands on that I've had on 45015 was a Toton while doing an assessment on her before going to March and picking one of the one's there to rebuild Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-e Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I didn't realise there were so many locos in the same condition which raises the question of why? Surely they are not cheap to buy in the first place add to that rent and then overhaul costs do people not do their homework or is it simply the heart rules the head. Then why do they not start on protecting the outside from the elements and giving the loco/wagon/coach a cosmetic external overhaul first, then play with the innards? I suppose looking around Busses and Cars are similar in that the urgency is to get the motor running. I suppose I've bought models on impulse so perhaps in the same line of thought of the heart ruling the head and if I won the Lottery I may do the same and buy something full scale but until that day I'll save my pennies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I've seen a class 24 block that's been welded in preservation and you will hate me for saying this but I remember buying a 6lda for £1000, the one out of 26032 as a spare for 25901 As a group many years ago we took the sad move to sell 25901 to a great set of lads at South Devon, I could have kept her but the thought of major bang/flash put me off it, The cold truth is that it has always been easy to buy the loco but then you have rebuild it and when that's all done the most important thing is to manage it so that there is money coming in and that the loco is used correctly on the railway it is based on For example, D5054 has a great team and when the gen went bang there was no problem in sending it to Uncle Harry for some TLC Edited March 12, 2015 by 25901 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted March 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Robin, its not you im getting at ive seen a lot of phots recently of the interior and boiler compartment, from people thinking they are clever.......without realising blue asbestos is not be messed with.... and i dont hate you for buying a 6lda hats off to you.....youve secured what you need to keep your machine going! id buy 45015 to cut it for spares for 45149.....and not give it a second thought! Steve-e they are relatively cheap from the scrap man but what some people fail to remember is there is a reason they are not in use!..... most of the preservation success stories are through careful research into the actual condition of the loco before purchase. For example you could have had back in the day a 45 that was "switched off" and with light preservation use could go on for many years with just consumables....its only then when you work out that consumables means.... Batteries for a 45 that comes in a 10k inc vat Contactor tips on a 45 tips are £90 each and on the traction motors theres 16 of them! brushes.... filters...... oil......190 gallons of 15w40 anti-freeze..... Then go to the other end of the spectrum and take a loco thats been run into the ground withdrawn after several months of bare minimum maintanance.....and then you start looking at very expensive things....... As long as the loco is complete then things can be done....in 45015s case the brake frame and more importantly the electrical cubical is absent.....as well as the auxilliaries like the compressors exhauster and pump set, and they are unique to 45s.....i cant go to a 47 and obtain another....like any other class of sulzer loco..... for example 3 weeks into 45149s service an oil seal failed on No2 end compressor causing an interpole on the motor to flash over and burn a hole the size of 5 pence piece in it.....the repair the interpole would cost £1500 thats not a motor overhaul thats an interpole repair....something no bigger than a house brick! compressor motors for 45s are like rocking horse poo.........salvation came from a compressor that had been sat in someones garden for 30 years! one oil change a comm clean and brush box repair and it started up as if it was turned off the day before! but theres an example of how we were lucky........but im mindful there are a number of small components on 45149 that could put it out of traffic for very long periods.....and a loco out of traffic is a loco that doesent earn money! Edited March 12, 2015 by pheaton 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Guys, I was at the beginning merely stating that a rebuild and retrofit of parts from other sources could bring 45015 back. Over here it is somewhat common to completely repower and retrofit a locomotive to keep it in traffic. In the early 1990's several EMD F7 and some E8 diesel got this treatment by commuter operators who used those engines for many years. I do agree if the interest is not there or the money then the best would be to scrap 45015 and parts out that locomotive to keep the others going if anything can be used? Now, Can anyone tell me why the hell so many Class 50 locos got taken apart and then left in ruins as part of some hair brained plan that went flash/bang poop??? How many Hoovers could have been saved? Atleast the parts of them for other locos of the same type??? I remember a group with the help of Marklin securing the remains of the Ram TEE train. The cars only that is from Canada with the plans to build a replacement TEE locomotive from a Class 50. Anyone know what I am talking about??? Could something similar be done with the Peak's frame??? To be perfectly honest with this group. If I could strike the lottery rich I would consider holding dual citizenship or even out right moving to the UK and buying one of my favorite locos. Another Class 37 for preservation. Maybe a 37/6 Eurostar unit. But, I can dream strange ideas or visions. After all, There is a crap load to restore over here as well. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Now, Can anyone tell me why the hell so many Class 50 locos got taken apart and then left in ruins as part of some hair brained plan that went flash/bang poop??? You must be referring to 'Operation Collingwood'. A project that never got off the ground. The 50's you refer to went to the scrapyard from service and the project was to rebuild these as part of one of those dreaded skills projects that never work. All got scrapped eventually. 50001,4,16,23,40 and 45 where the locos earmarked. Cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted March 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2015 Robert, 50s were a prime example of locos's run into the ground, they were also at the limits of there physical capability and had a number of design problems that were not fully rectified during the refurbishment process that plagued them in their final days, this coupled with the fact that a lot of the technology used in the 50s (early solid state traction control electronics) were not in use in other classes and this made spares difficult or expensive to obtain! Its true that on the engine side spares for a class 50 or any english electric SVT type engine were plentiful you could take spares in theory from 20s 31s 37s 40s 56s all sharing fundamentally the same engine. its widely known that the ETH generator on a 50 is one of its primary Achilles heals and some point a 5 figure sum is going to need to be spent on it, again a left over from BR days when alternator replacement was actively considered but abandoned on cost grounds. 50s were known for excessive scraping leading to engine seizure and catastrophic failure if not caught in time and this was the cause of a number of withdrawls. finally 50s were jam packed with 1960s solid state traction control namely something known as the KV10 which is a solid state generator excitation controller everything else from the same era used a simple glorified potentiometer! the KV10 is widely known to be a pain with some groups actively looking at having a modern replacement built. One of the only loco types at the time to include this. Its true that simpler designs such as the 37 and 47 and 31 lived longer due to the simplicity of the systems they used! None of this made the 50 a bad loco, it just makes life a little more interesting when it comes to preservation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Guys, I was at the beginning merely stating that a rebuild and retrofit of parts from other sources could bring 45015 back. Over here it is somewhat common to completely repower and retrofit a locomotive to keep it in traffic. In the early 1990's several EMD F7 and some E8 diesel got this treatment by commuter operators who used those engines for many years. But that's not "preservation" is it, that's buying a loco that's been rebuilt. It's a bit like "preserving" 57601 by painting it in two tone green with D18xx series numbers... Much US preservation is very odd to British eyes - for instance you guys stateside scrapped ATSF2649 (the prototype of the Santa Fe's CF7 programme) a few years back to repower an F unit with a more 'curb appeal' but a lot less historical significance... What's the end intention? Are you starting with the intention of restoring the loco? (It would have to be a heart thing...) If so ripping the guts out and replacing with something different is an anathema to that (and practically, this loco is not 'special' in any notable way...) Or - are you starting with the intention of getting a nice reliable loco that's going to earn it's keep? (More of a head thing, which to my eye is the way that much US preservation works...) If so, replacing the internals on something that's far gone makes an awful lot of sense, but i'd question why (as a business decision) you'd pick such a far gone machine to start from, I find it hard to believe there's not other loco's out there which would be a much easier starting places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) My response was triggered by mention of parts being non existant for this machine. Yes, We do have some odd preservation here. I agree the scrapping of the CF7 was a shame. But the F units with the classic lines or looks are more appealing to the diesel guys over here. The CF7 being nothing more than a freight locomotive looking much like any other freight locomotive. However, We do have too many F units in preservation just rusting away unrestored. Three F9 B units just got scrapped this winter because their wheels had issues with the flanges being to thin for mainline movement. Nobody wanted to touch them. Then for those interested was the issue of the Minnesota Zephar F units that sat in danger of scrapping for some time. As for the units that got repowered by the transit authorities. The take we have is this: If the outside appearance is still that of a F-7 than the insides are not as important. Yes, The purest will disagree since the EMD 567 sounds are trademarks of the F units. Most of these rebuilds either got 645E parts in the 567 block, or had a complete engine swap for a 645E3 engine or some such. Canada had three repowered F7 type locomotives with Cat 3516 engines. They ran them for 30 years finally retiring them in 1992. I was just trying to add the point, That if a person was to rebuild the 45015 she could be repowered with other engines and electrical while retaining the outside appearance of the Peak. Look up the Union Pacific E9 locomotives. They retain their appearance but have modern engines and electrical systems. You guys have some class 47 units with EMD power plants so the concept would be similar for the Peak. Outward appearance unmodified. But the insides repowered if needed with parts sourced from someplace else. Robert Edited March 13, 2015 by Nightstar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCR Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 You guys have some class 47 units with EMD power plants so the concept would be similar for the Peak. Outward appearance unmodified. But the insides repowered if needed with parts sourced from someplace else. Robert I'm not sure it would get out of the station at many diesel galas if it had that set up, there would be every visitor and his dog of a certain age asking the poor driver about the weird engine note. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Well, Finding a replacement engine for the original is probably what I would realistically do. Or find a suitable engine from another country. Russia, India, etc. India still has some English Electric clones in service at this time as they do copies of our Alco engines. The electrical would be harder to piece together than finding a Sulzer engine I imagine. That is were I would have to get creative and look at parts from various sources. About the engine song. I bet the EMD engines are more reliable than the old EE engines or the Sulzer engines. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 About the engine song. I bet the EMD engines are more reliable than the old EE engines or the Sulzer engines. They may well be, but I would liken the attractiveness of this solution to the paying punter, to a 1974 Ford Escort RS1800 re-engined with a reconditioned Honda lump. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCR Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 They may well be, but I would liken the attractiveness of this solution to the paying punter, to a 1974 Ford Escort RS1800 re-engined with a reconditioned Honda lump. however there is something to be said for it on the front of improving reliability by completely rebuilding on the inside it would also have a market if it were allowed on the mainline, it would technically be a new form of diesel traction not seen on the mainline, akin to taking a railtour behind a 57 instead of a 47 not to say that this market would pay for the work but it would be something to try and claw back some money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 however there is something to be said for it on the front of improving reliability by completely rebuilding on the inside it would also have a market if it were allowed on the mainline , it would technically be a new form of diesel traction not seen on the mainline, akin to taking a railtour behind a 57 instead of a 47 not to say that this market would pay for the work but it would be something to try and claw back some money. (my bold) This is like Dragons Den on acid. There aren't the funds or apparent thirst to even sheet the hapless thing over. To certify it for mainline operation would probably quadruple the cost of the restoration. For a market that might not even exist. In the words of Duncan Bannatyne - Amoot! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 however there is something to be said for it on the front of improving reliability by completely rebuilding on the inside it would also have a market if it were allowed on the mainline, it would technically be a new form of diesel traction not seen on the mainline, akin to taking a railtour behind a 57 instead of a 47 not to say that this market would pay for the work but it would be something to try and claw back some money. My feelings exactly. I am thinking more of a Eastern European engine than a EMD. But yes my idea would be to have a classic locomotive on the outside. But a modern update insides. My intentions would be to try and get this ole girl mainline certified and have it on hire for mainline usage. This is exactly what Union Pacific did with their trio of EMD built E9 streamliner units. They still look the same but have modern internals. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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