Services through Paisley ,Elderslie,the Lochwinnoch loop and Dalry

[Legend]

Born in 62 I'm used to a service pattern from Glasgow (Central) through Paisley to Stranraer,Girvan,Ayr,Ardossan and Largs and to Wemyss Bay and Gourock. I'd assumed that was the main service pattern in steam days too. However I have various books ,culminating in the latest book from George C O'Hara which shows trains Glasgow-Paisley-Dalry-Kilmarnock. So my question is how were such trains routed ? Via the Canal line then over the Lochwinnoch loop? Or did services vary their routes over the Glasgow and Paisley Joint,Canal Line, main line and Lochwinnoch loop indiscriminately. I know most would have started from St Enoch and it seems all these services stopped in 1966. Really just interested in what trains used the various routes . I'd always assumed to get to Kilmarnock you had to go via Barrhead ,Lugton, Stewarton ,but was there a regular service through Paisley? Elderslie must have been a fascinating crossroads!

[Ian Smeeton]

I walked part of the Lochwinnoch loop from its junction with the Kilmacolm line many years ago. The first station was an island platform (Johnstone North) and was still in recognisable condition. Bear in mind that this was more than 30 years ago, and the trackbed was still quite clear.

 

The Viaduct at Lochwinnoch, is still in use although as a cycle track. I remember that it was just to the South of Struthers Garage, also, Struthers were well known for their soft drinks at that time and still had van sales deliveries to houses and factories as well as shops.

 

Their Iron Brew was no good though. Did nothing for a hangover!!

 

My Stepfather, no longer with us, started as cleaner at Corkerhill in about 1960, and related the tale of being Secondman on a freight run via Dalry and Kilmarnock to Kingmoor. The date was sometime in 1961, and can no doubt be checked, as he spent the few hours off watching the Magnificent 7 in the cinema at Carlisle before returning North. His driver spent the time in the Pub, and my Stepfather after being asked to take the helm for a moment while the driver relieved himself, ended up driving the train back to Glasgow, as the driver had passed out, drunk, in the loo (originally fitted in class 40's )

 

I can't offer any info at all on the frequency or type of service on the Kilbarchan loop or the Dalry to Kilmarnock section, but I am quite happy to reminisce.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Ian

[Legend]

Struthers Garage also famous because it blew up! I think mid 60s I remember hearing the bang in Paisley! Also cycled Paisley to Lochwinnoch along the track bed of the loop. I'd always thought there was a spartan service over it, hence closure, but it now appears it was busier than I thought

[Ian Smeeton]

Too early for me to remember the Struthers explosion, but I do remember the cooling tower at ICI Ardeer blowing down in 72 or 73. when we lived in Ardrossan. Made the house shake.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[pH]

I'd always assumed to get to Kilmarnock you had to go via Barrhead ,Lugton, Stewarton ,but was there a regular service through Paisley?

 

Until the Glasgow, Barrhead and Kilmarnock Joint was opened to Kilmarnock in 1873, all Glasgow-Kilmarnock traffic went by way of Paisley and Dalry.

 

What follows is probably (much) too much information. However, your post got me looking at things I hadn't read about for a long time. I was reminded of things I had long forgotten, and things that I had never really bothered to get straight in my mind became clear. So thank you for the questions - feel free to ignore any or all of the remainder of this post.

 

The Glasgow and Paisley Joint was opened to Gilmour Street in 1840, and the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr opened between Paisley and Ayr, down the east side of Castle Semple and Barr Lochs, at virtually the same time. The line to Ardrossan from Kilwinning was re-gauged from an earlier 4ft 6in gauge railway and trains started to run through from Glasgow, also in 1840. The Dalry to Kilmarnock line opened in 1843, allowing direct access to Kilmarnock from Glasgow. This was later extended southwards to meet the new Glasgow, Dumfries and Carlisle Railway.

 

On completion of the Glasgow, Dumfries and Carlisle Railway in 1850, it was merged with the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr to form the Glasgow and South Western Railway. G&SWR services between Glasgow and Carlisle ran via Dalry to Kilmarnock for the next 23 years, until the Glasgow, Barrhead and Kilmarnock Joint was opened in 1873. While passenger trains going south to Carlisle used the Barrhead route from then on (with some exceptions, like some 'Starlight Specials'), freight trains between Carlisle and Glasgow/Paisley continued to run via Dalry into the 1960s at least. (The history of this route meant that trains from St. Enoch to Paisley on the Glasgow and Paisley Joint travelled in the 'up' direction, at least into LMS times, while trains going the same way from Central to Paisley were going in the 'down' direction.)

 

Elderslie became a junction in 1864, when the Bridge of Weir Railway was opened. This line was extended to Greenock Princes Pier in 1869.

 

In the early 1880s, the Glasgow and Paisley Joint was expanded to four tracks, but the G&SWR felt it needed more capacity between Glasgow and Paisley. In 1885, it opened the Paisley Canal line, built on the route of the Glasgow, Paisley and Johnstone canal, which joined the existing Paisley to Ayr line just east of Elderslie. In addition to the existing flat junction to the Greenock line, there was a burrowing junction built, using the existing tunnel for the canal under the railway, which allowed trains to reach the Greenock line without crossing the main line.

 

Finally, feeling it needed still more capacity, the G&SWR opened the North Johnstone line (the Lochwinnoch Loop), down the west side of Castle Semple and Barr Lochs, in 1905. This left the Greenock line at Cart Junction and re-joined the main Ayr line by a flying junction at Brownhill Junction. This flyover, and the diveunder at Elderslie, meant that movements on the original Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr line and the North Johnstone line did not conflict.

 

I'm not sure of all the services that used these various lines, but AFAIK there was no rule that all services to a specific destination had to use a particular route. I've seen references to Ayr, Largs, Ardrossan and Kilmarnock services using the North Johnstone line. Greenock and Ayr services (at least) ran over the Canal line. Services to all G&SWR destinations used the Glasgow and Paisley Joint. All services, except to Greenock, ran by the original Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr line. So, as you say, use of all the routes was pretty 'indiscriminate'.

 

All that's left of these routes today is the original Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr line, and the stub of the Canal line to Paisley Canal station. The final part of the Greenock line - to Kilmacolm - closed in 1983, the Paisley Canal line closed beyond Paisley Canal in 1986, the last part of the North Johnstone closed in 1977, and the original way to Kilmarnock, from Dalry, closed in 1973.

[Legend]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply pH. The railways around Paisley, Elderslie ,Barrhead and Johnstone are fascinating, together with all the goods facilities that existed, Paisley then being a major manufacturing centre. It must have generated a considerable amount of freight. I have a picture of a Royal Scot on a mail train to Carlisle on the Glasgow and Paisley Joint at Arkleston, which has recently reverted to 4 tracks!

 

To go to school I used part of the tracked of the "dummy railway" which was part of the Caledonian line branching from St James running past Ferguslie , Stanely to Glenfield then onto Barrhead. I used to walk between Brediland rd and Camphill School which I think was around The old Stanely Station. A useful shortcut for a schoolboy!

[pH]

For a short time many, many years ago I was a junior porter at St. James station, when the 'dummy railway' was still open to Linwood. You can see the junction just in front of the engine in this picture I took at the time: http://www.flickr.com/photos/80572914@N06/7398258268/in/set-72157630154802550/lightbox/

[scotcent]

In  the  winter  1957  public  timetable  there  were  3  services  daily  St  Enoch  to  Kilmarnock.  There  were  10  trains  routed  via  Canal  line  on  weekdays,  15  on  Saturdays,  of  which  most  also  took  the  Lochwinnoch  loop.  Most  went  to  Largs  or  Ardrossan.  No  Ayr  trains  took  the  Canal  line  or  the  Lochwinnoch  loop.  Extra  services  on  Saturdays  and  in  the  summer  often  used  these  routes.  Quite  a  lot  of  freight  went  to  Kilmarnock  via  Paisley,  but  the  likes  of  coal  empties  often  went  via  Barrhead.  I  never  remember  seeing  loaded  coal  trains  on  the  Barrhead  line.

 

Allan  F

[luckymucklebackit]

The station at Johnstone North had a very interesting layout that would lend itself very nicely to a layout. The goods yard was at a lower level, with the passenger lines passing over the freight branch at the east end of the station. The branch joined the main line at Cart Junction.

[Jim49]

'strewth Jim, I have passed by that site for years and never realised that there had been a railway line, let alone a station there. I must go and have a good look the next time I'm out that way (via Specsavers).

And yes, it would make a very nice and unusual layout with a high level main line, low level goods yard and no direct connection between the two levels. I've since had a good look on Old-Maps

and can see where the low level joins the main line at Cart Junction about a mile away to the East, on the western leg of a triangular junction! 

 

Thanks for this one,

 

Jim

 

Edit to change Canal Junction to Cart Junction

[Legend]

Yes really interesting. Does the current A737 road use the old track formation or is it slightly further North?

[pH]

'strewth Jim, I have passed by that site for years and never realised that there had been a railway line, let alone a station there. I must go and have a good look the next time I'm out that way (via Specsavers).

 

And yes, it would make a very nice and unusual layout with a high level main line, low level goods yard and no direct connection between the two levels. I've since had a good look on Old-Maps and can see where the low level joins the main line at Canal Junction about a mile away to the East, on the western leg of a triangular junction! 

 

Thanks for this one,

 

Jim

 

You've probably worked this out yourself, Jim, but that is actually two stations there. The low level one was the original Johnstone North (passenger and goods), at the end of a short branch from Cart Junction. When the Lochwinnoch Loop was built, the existing station couldn't be used, as the line needed to start climbing immediately at Cart Junction. The original station was kept as the goods station - the more northerly tracks were the original passenger station. If you look at the 1:2500 map for 1897 (before the Lochwinnoch Loop was built) you'll see the original station. It looks as if the track to the old station was 'kinked' a bit to take it under the Lochwinnoch Loop.

[Legend]

Just been to Paisley Central library. Manged to get a map of Paisley from 1958 showing the extensive railway lines around the area. Also shows the lines that even then were disused. Because the map was more than 50 years old it was out of copyright so I was able to copy it. Very helpful guy in the library did it for me. There were also maps of Johnstone showing the existing station and the triangle of lines to Cart Junction and another map circa 1963 showing North Johnstone Station and the disused goods yards. the thing that stands out in all the maps was the amount of industry around, many with their own sidings!

 

In the Internet age libraries are often forgotten sources of information. Well worth a visit.

[Jim49]

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt Peter but, no, I hadn't worked out that there were two station on the same site. To be fair to myself though, you must remember that I'm still getting over the realisation that there was ever one station there, let alone two. I've now checked the pre 1897 map and see what you are saying about the original station and the approach line having to be kinked to run under the new line.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jim

[Gordon Connell]

Yes really interesting. Does the current A737 road use the old track formation or is it slightly further North?

 

The A737 is just to the north. The old track formation is mostly now a cycle/foot path and follows the loop line on through Kilbarchan and Lochwinnoch. I haven't been to the station site at North Johnstone, but the Kilbarchan platform is still there.

 

Gordon

[souwest]

I think that a large number of Largs and Ardrossan Town (from the 1957) timetable went via Lochwinnoch, with a smaller numebr going via Glengarnock.  Ayr services I suspect may have mostly gone via Glengarnock.

 

The stations on the loop were much closer to the town centres as opposed to the present line.

 

Kilbarchan featured in Journal 14 of the G&SWRA Journal contact me at steam_train_guy@yahoo.co.uk if you are interested in copies of the feature - it covered the signal diagram, and station building plan.  I believe Lochwinnoch station was identical.  There's a fellow whose involved with Cart Junction on line as well.

[luckymucklebackit]

There are two diagrams for Cart Junction from 1914 and 1966 on the signalbox.org site, the 1966 diagram suggests that the branch to the goods station at Johnstone North had been lifted by 1966.

 

1914  http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=458

 

1966  http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=457

 

Jim

[david12345]

The station at Johnstone North had a very interesting layout that would lend itself very nicely to a layout. The goods yard was at a lower level, with the passenger lines passing over the freight branch at the east end of the station. The branch joined the main line at Cart Junction.

I remember cycling the cycle route regularly, maybe daily in the late 90s and before they built the Johnstone bypass and latterly Morrisons, Johnstone North platforms were quite intact. As the earthworks progressed more and more became visible such as foundations and other buried structures then suddenly it was all gone.

 

I rarely cycled any further south than Lochwinnoch but seem to remember cycling through the remains of the Glengarnock Steel works on my journeys so I wonder if steel or coal traffic was routed this way?

 

One of my earliest memories was going to Glasgow from Johnstone High and the horses in the field next to the station pulled the glove of the hand of my gran and she had to go out for the day 1 glove down. I also remember the old coaching stock in the goods yard adjacent to the station. I've looked in vain over the years to try and find a picture of Johnstone High goods yard in the mid 70s but no luck.

[Al Reid]

It must have been in the early 1970s when I was on an excursion from Glasgow to Ayr Harbour and round the colliery lines including Muirkirk. We travelled round the Lochwinnoch loop and may have been the last passenger train to do so. Around this time I also saw an evening freight heading towards Glasgow, two Claytons on steel out of Glengarnock BSC works.

 

As for Barrhead I grew up here and lived here 1952 to 1979. As a kid I can well remember seeing the smoke of the daily freight along what we called the puggy line from Paisley to Barrhead Gas Works. Dad took me as a kid to watch the demolition train at the gasworks. I now have some prized photos in an album. One also of an excursion in the 1950s crossing the long viaduct through Barrhead to the South Goods Yard. This yard once was home to Ailsa Motors, an early Volvo importer. Only a small part of this viaduct remains. Barrhead once had an amazing network of lines, this ex Caley line never carried passengers despite all stations being fully furnished. The stub of the Sou West line remained open into the 1970s to serve a Cadbury Distribution Depot, again I have a poor photo in 1969 of an 08 on the trip working to the depot. Photos appear of those lines in the various books of Scottish Branch Lines. An interesting book published in 2000 by GC Book Publishers and authored by Alasdair Wham Lost Railway Lines South of Glasgow covers the Lochwinnoch Loop and Paisley Barrhead & Neilston, Try Douglas Blades who may still have copies

[Blobrick]

The station at Johnstone North had a very interesting layout that would lend itself very nicely to a layout. The goods yard was at a lower level, with the passenger lines passing over the freight branch at the east end of the station. The branch joined the main line at Cart Junction

Does anyone know what form the goods sidings at Kilbarchan or Kilbirnie took if there were any? I have kindly been given a copy of a signalling sketch for Kilbarchan, and being a signalling sketch the goods yard is not included. Even just knowning the number of siding would be a help

 

Many Thanks

Bob C

[luckymucklebackit]

Does anyone know what form the goods sidings at Kilbarchan or Kilbirnie took if there were any? I have kindly been given a copy of a signalling sketch for Kilbarchan, and being a signalling sketch the goods yard is not included. Even just knowning the number of siding would be a help

 

Many Thanks

Bob C

 

This should do the trick!!

 

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maptiles/m100721_240658_662866.png

 

Hope it helps

 

Jim

[jasp]

Similar info at NLS maps, OS maps, 25" to the mile, 3 maps of varying antiquity:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=12&lat=55.8624&lon=-4.58054&layers=B000000FTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

Jim P

[Blobrick]

Gentlemen

 

Many many thanks for these two links, all my questions have been answered. I am in your debt

 

One very happy bunny

 

bob C

[Buhar]

I've been exploring this area, or rather a shade to the south, quite a bit recently and was amazed at the evidence of long closed lines dotting the area.  It took me a few trips and a dig out of John Thomas' history to make some sense of it.  Lugton and Beith are only 6 miles apart east to west, but there were four main lines heading out of Glasgow in roughly the same direction passing these towns.  The Johnstone Loop, the Ayr/Largs line, the G&SWR main line to Kilmarnock and the Caley line to Ardrossan.  Barrhead still has evidence of the Battle of the Braes (Gleniffer Braes - not the more momentous one on Skye connected with the Clearances), the viaduct behind Tesco and the areas round the station.

 

Its hard to believe the line alongside Lochlibo Rd was once the luxury route to Scotland from London.  The line is singled and realigned along the six foot for the most part.  Some of the overbridges simply don't seem wide enough for a double track main line, even with the restricted Scottish loading guage.

[pH]

... the G&SWR main line to Kilmarnock

 

 

Minor point - while that line was used by G&SWR trains to Carlisle and onwards to other English destinations, it wasn't a purely G&SWR line. It was a joint line with the Caledonian - the Glasgow, Barrhead and Kilmarnock Joint Railway.