More Swindon And Derby DMUs

[chrisf]

Happy to search and advise!

 

Chris

[Robert Shrives]

Hi ,

Lovely modelling ! In N gauge its a serious cut and shut with Dapol bubbles but you have shown me the light as I was struggling with the middle trailer - I had been mulling over how to add the toliet comp with out loads of filler  answer do  116 TS... silly me.

 

Thanks for suppling the 12000 millivolt spark of light.

 

Robert  

[Clive Mortimore]

Many thanks for the info above Chris, my only reference was the Modelmaster DMU book, which only covers every few years. I was wondering how the all-second trailers would fit in and be used later at Cathays? Now of course all South Wales trailers ended up as all-seconds with gangways eventually, that all seemed to happen sometime between 1967-72, and probably coincided with a repaint to blue, do you have definite dates for de-classification and/or gangway-fitting, and the introduction of pay-train working in The Valleys?

     BTW, did anyone spot the extra bogie steps on my blue DMS, TC and TS above? These were added to non-corridor DMUs (Class 115/116/125/127) after a spat of fires in service, it was soon realized that passengers had difficulty exiting in an emergency, with no gangways or lower steps. I don't think this applied to driving-brake vehicles, since passengers could already vacate to the track via the driver's cab or guard's compartment. Alterations were also made to the interiors, with extra doors and/or openings added through each car. If you think 116 liveries are complicated, the interior changes involve even more head-scratching? The Golding/Cheona DMU book does help here to a certain extent.

                                           Cheers, Brian.

Hi Brian and all

 

Ah! Passengers exiting suburban DMUs. I remember traveling from Bedford to London in the early 80s on a 127. We had just passed Kentish Town when the train came to a stop outside Camden Road Tunnel. The driver de-trained and phoned the bobby, whilst on the phone the guard walked down to the front of the train. They had a chat and the guard very kindly told everyone as he walked back that we had a long wait as there was a problem at St Pancras. Not sure how long we waited but two Irish priest kept on about the boat train they were going to miss and I think wound up the other passengers. One passenger then suggest they walked back to Kentish Town station and catch the underground. With that doors started to be opened and people were jumping out of our carriage, this then sent panic along the train soon loads of people were on the track. The guard was going nuts telling them to get back in. The driver realised what was going on and called the signalman. A few minutes later after another chat with the signalman, he rushed along the train telling the passengers to stay in the train was we would be moving as soon as the idiots had reached the station and the signalman could safely allow trains to pass. Still a few more got off.  No need for additional steps for pillocks when they feel they are being delayed. 

 

While we waited my first wife handed around miss shaped "Newberry Fruits" to the other patient passengers. My brother worked for Tobler-Meltis at the time and had given us loads of bags of these lovely sweets, but far too many for us.

 

I still wonder if the two Irish priest made it to Euston for the boat train?

[chrisf]

Happy to search and advise!

 

Chris

 

OK, I have been searching.  There may be more to report but the process of declassifying the trailers and fitting vestibule connections appear to have started in mid 1968.  The Railway Observer for October 1968 reports thus: "As Canton suburban dmu sets pass through works they are being painted blue and fitted with corridor connections ... Several of the trailers for these suburban sets have been down-graded from composite to second class and this process is continuing as trailers are overhauled in works."  The impetus for the changes had come from the revised Valleys timetable of May 1968 which saw hourly trains from Treherbert and Merthyr combined at Pontypridd, run non-stop to Cardiff and proceed all stations to Barry Island.  Stations south of Pontypridd were served by an all stations service to Cardiff, continuing irregularly to Penarth and Barry.  Staff were to be withdrawn from most stations and tickets issued on trains, hence the need for gangways.  The purpose of the recast was said to be to improve connections to and from London but it had the effect of hacking off many regular patrons, not least train crew based at Radyr, for whose benefit extra stops were swiftly added.  It also threw up spare sets which were transferred to Cricklewood and Stratford.  Until they left, Canton had 39 sets to cover 30 diagrams, which is not as generous a provision as one might suppose.

 

The Railway Observer in the 1960s was one of the few sources of information on the minutiae of dmu operation.  Without the vigilance of RCTS members we would know even less than we do.  Not until circa 1964 were transfers officially reported and nearly all of what we know about set formations is down to the RCTS.  Even so, much has slipped under the radar.  Only last week I found a photo on Robert Carroll's Flickr site which, if correctly dated, shows that some changes in allocation and formation took place in 1962-63 without being spotted, or at least reported.  Inconveniently, these are just the years skipped by Jim Grindlay's otherwise very useful book.  The three volumes by Roger Harris record many allocations not hitherto known but also omit some well recorded photographically.  No historian should rely on one source if more than one is available.

 

Right, time for a cuppa and then back to the books ...

 

Chris

[cheesysmith]

Thanks again chaps,

     Here's another Class 116, this time in their second livery, with a darker green (Mid-Brunswick Green, which was near enough loco green, like used on early Derby Lightweights). This is a 1957 first-batch unit, that must have been repainted, since it was probably in the lighter shade when built? The centre car is not the usual composite, but one of ten units with an all-second trailer, although the bodyshells are the same for both. These were used initially on the Eastern and Western Valleys in South Wales, from Newport to Pontypool and Blaenavon, and Newport to Ebbw Vale and Brynmawr respectively. These services were discontinued in 1962, and the units were re-allocated to the Cardiff Valleys fleet.

     Close-up digital photos are so merciless, i've just spotted two mistakes on the side shown here of W50129, how did they get overlooked(?), all my others seem correct in this respect, can you spot the cock-up?

 

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This pic shows my interpretation of first and second liveries, i'll show a lined-out 116 later. There's another mistake here on W50901, in my defence I was originally going to paint this blue, then changed my mind and forgot about a certain detail, but what was it? (Correct on the one behind). These little errors will be corrected at their next works overhaul (gnashes teeth). Incidentally, I studiously picked out the tops of every door droplight with a silver line, to represent the metal window locks, but in photos it looks like a reflection, looks better in the flesh.

                  Cheers, Brian.

 

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Would it be the drivers door handrail? The handrail originally went to the gutter and was hollow to act as a drain?

[Brian Kirby]

Excellent detective work Chris, thank you very much, you are a star.

    I am slightly surprised to see that Paytrain working started, before most (or even any) 116 sets had been converted, the change is also earlier than I had imagined? However it does look as though there is a very neat watershed, between green non-corridor and repainted blue gangwayed sets. I am very tempted to add one (or two!) blue gangwayed 116s to my fleet.The remaining area of confusion is with centre trailers, was the 1968 mixture of TC and TS a hangover from the inclusion of the ex-Newport all-second sets? Did the availability of first-class travel in the Cardiff Valleys finish with the commencement of Paytrain operation in 1968, with the TCs temporarily de-classified, before permanent downgrading during a works visit. One more question, if I may, was conversion work done locally, or at Swindon Works?

                                 Cheers, Brian. 

[chrisf]

Pay train working in the Valleys actually began in February 1970.  The interval between this date, the declassification of the composite trailers and the structural alterations to the stock was attributed to the delay in sourcing ticket machines.  This is daft enough to be true.

 

One thing that did not happen straight away was the renumbering of the sets.  When they first arrived at Cardiff 3xx numbers were given to units with composite trailers and 4xx numbers to sets that were second class only.  This foolproof scheme overlooked the two power twins that worked the former auto train diagrams out of Barry which were CAT354/5 and, of course, second class only.  As the little plates bearing the set numbers slotted into brackets on the solebars and measured 9 inches by 2 inches it may not be seen to matter too much.  Set numbers painted on the front ends of power cars were a different kettle of fish and a unified system for the whole of the Western Region had not yet emerged.

 

Chris

Edited July 23, 2017 by chrisf

[Brian Kirby]

Would it be the drivers door handrail? The handrail originally went to the gutter and was hollow to act as a drain?

Yes, well spotted Cheesysmith, when I built the light green unit, the original intention was to paint that one blue, and I forgot to change the cab handrails. I shall amend the mistake in due course, but it's not a high priority, cos nobody else seems to have spotted it, but then again, everyone's gonna know now!

The other cock-up is on the medium green DMS, where i've added the new rear window section. For some strange reason, I have forgotten to remove not one, but two water filler caps, all the other sides are okay, how did that one get through? This is another head-scratching area, as built and prior to refurbishment, 116 driving cars seem to either have a water filler mounted further forward, or none at all? Lea Valley sets are also different in this respect. All very confusing.

                                                                                            Cheers, Brian.

[chrisf]

Brian, I did not see your post above before I posted mine.  Announcing that something will happen is not always the same as it happening once announced.  Useful as it is, the coverage in the RO is patchy and the first mention of both fitting gangways and doing away with first class comes some time after the processes had begun.  The abolition of first class must have been announced but I have seen no details.  I know that it was when seven of the second class only sets were sent to Laira in 1962 and put to work on Exeter - Kingswear locals - which is why, incidentally, that a Cathays set with a composite trailer worked the last day of the Blaenavon service in April '62.  I imagine, but cannot confirm, that the declassifications were done as the sets went through shops and I take that to mean Swindon.  It appears, touch wood, that no green sets were fitted with gangways for working out of Cardiff and as far as I can tell no sets were fitted with gangways before being transferred away - to Scotland and South Gosforth as well as Cricklewood and Stratford on top of the several power cars denuded of seats and put to parcels work out of Paddington.

 

What was done with the second class only trailers that did not go to Laira is a Good Question.  Somehow I doubt that they stayed idle for long, for there must have been work for second class only trains in the Cardiff Valleys.  A photo that I found last week has one of the Cathays power twins at Newton Abbot in 1963 when I had fondly believed that it was still trundling less and less merrily up and down the Vale of Glamorgan.  No-one said this was going to be easy ...

 

Chris

[MJI]

Getting information on DMUs is hard, I rely on contemporary photos and spotting notes.

 

To be honest 1970s WR is easier than some.

 

Anyway Brian. Just how many DMUs do you have?

 

32 cars 10 sets, a few spares, still need another 2x101, a 120, just to represent one area!

 

And possibly yet another 116, I only have 2 sets, 1 complete.

[Brian Kirby]

I dread to think how many units i've got, but I derive pleasure from them, so the more the merrier. They keep me out of the pub too.  BK

[leopardml2341]

I dread to think how many units i've got, but I derive pleasure from them, so the more the merrier. They keep me out of the pub too.  BK

I was going to click 'like', but then I saw that it keeps you out of the pub, so I went for supportive instead

[Brian Kirby]

Here's a lined green 116, this is the same Brunswick Green as on the previous unit, but the combination of lining and the quirks of digital photography, have made this look brighter than it really is. Note the late Michael Mensing image in use as a screensaver for inspiration, taken at West Bromwich c.1960, it's an unlined 116 in the second livery. MM was a prolific photographer of green DMUs, and has left us with many valuable and historic images.  BK

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[Colin parks]

Here's a lined green 116, this is the same Brunswick Green as on the previous unit, but the combination of lining and the quirks of digital photography, have made this look brighter than it really is. Note the Michael Mensing image in use as a screensaver for inspiration, taken at West Bromwich c.1960, it's an unlined 116 in the second livery. BK

 

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Looking very nice Brian.

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Many Thanks to Bernie and Colin,

      Here are two more images, this time showing the two cab fronts, complete with blue insulation tape cut square for DMU codes, although they really do need some lamp-irons. I nearly shied away from showing these, as they are a bit "warts and all" (five times actually size on a large screen), but here goes . . . . .       BK

 

[timbowilts]

Brian, absolutely superb work.

 

A quick question, how did you do the destinations on the 116?

 

tim T

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Timbo, the destination blinds were from an old Modelmaster transfer sheet, which are okayish, but their typeface is a bit suss, and the choice of destinations are in many cases, rather more suited to 1980s and 1990s operation. By contrast, the sheets supplied with the new Dapol 122 bubblecar are superior in style and selection, hopefully a different sheet will add even more variety with their forthcoming Class 121? Better still would be if Dapol eventually made these sheets available separately as spares.      BK

[Signaller69]

Very nice variety, livery and detail differences in your fleet Brian, super work.

 

Martyn.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Signaller and John T,

        The shades of green are getting darker, here's my darkest so far, which represents the weathered version of the final DMU olive green. This is still a work-in-progress, another Derby 3-car, this time an ER "Lea Valley" set in late 1960s condition, as running on the GN from King's Cross. These started life on the GE section from Liverpool Street, but were transferred to the GN around 1968/9. The bodies were very similar to the WR units, although the centre cars had a slightly different arrangement. The big difference was under the floor, with Rolls-Royce engines and semi-hydraulic transmission, rather like as used on today's Sprinters. My best plan so far is to use the engine mouldings off Hornby Class 110 power cars.  

                                                                                       Cheers, Brian.

 

[Brian Kirby]

And here's a faded blue Lea Valley set, with it's windows being added. I remember riding on these Class 125s, to and from my school's sports ground at Oakleigh Park in the early 70s. They were much faster and smoother than the rattling and vibrating Cravens units, these were the greyhounds of the DMU world. Most were unemployed on the weekends, and would be parked up north and south of Finsbury Park, even up the gradient to East Finchley. On one occasion, returning to King's Cross late afternoon, a fairly empty Class 125 rolled into Oakleigh Park station heading south (ready for a rush-hour departure from KX), and the driver was reading a broadsheet newspaper as he drove, with his hands on the controls underneath. The paper quickly disappeared when he spotted an inspector on the platform at Finsbury Park.    BK

 

[leopardml2341]

Isn't nostalgia wonderful, as a young lad spotter, I never ever thought I would long for the days of 'first generation' DMUs.

[Brian Kirby]

I've been spending ages on the interiors for my two Lea Valley (Class 125) sets, all are re-arrangements of the Lima mouldings, with several re-thinks along the way.The first job is to correct the seat spacing in the middle of the centre cars, having gotten rid of the toilets. These vehicles had a unique arrangement of five internal sections, allowing for smoking and non-smoking, a presumably unrequired need for the same in first-class that was never applied, and perhaps a ladies only compartment, all very baffling? Another complication, is that as a result of some engine fires on their Class 127 sister units, on the St.Pancras services in the 1960s, it was decided that Rolls-Royce engined units would have their seating altered to allow access throughout the vehicles, with extra external steps and grab handles added, for easier evacuation to ground level.

     So I made two different trailer interiors, one original, one modified with through access. I also modified one of the Driving Motor Seconds the same way, the good news is the driving brakes already had through access as built, only extra steps and grab handles need be added. Later on, I was studying photos for the umpteenth time, when to my horror I noticed that all London Midland Region Class 127 vehicles were altered, but Eastern Region only altered the driving cars (with the RR engines and fuel tanks). My modified centre car was wrong! So there was more work putting it back to original. Curiously, the Albion-engined Class 115 had all these extra steps from new?

     So here are my two initial centre car interiors, the one with through access turned out to be pure fiction, didn't match anything else so was rebuilt (see below). Incidentally the various fleet seating totals bear out the changes, the 125 DMBS were always 65-seat, the trailers were always 106-seat, the DMSs were 95-seat, but were altered to 91-seat. The Cheona DMU book isn't much help, most of the high-density unit section is very confused.

 

 

Here's the offending centre interior (top) rebuilt to match it's mate, and below are the early and the late DMSs.

                                                                        Cheers, Brian.

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Having mentioned the Cheona DMU book from 1995, I have to say Chapter Ten on High-Density suburban units, and the mis-labelling of many of the drawings, leads to great confusion. If anyone reading this has their own copy already, perhaps they could double-check and correct any mistakes I have made myself? Starting with page 89:  (Ignoring underframe details)

 

Figure 182: This is Class 116 DMBS with later added gangways, also suits Classes 117 and 118 if a headcode roofbox is added.

 

Figure 183: This is an original Class 117 or 118 DMBS, or 116 or 125 without the roofbox.

 

Figure 184: This floorplan represents gangwayed Class 116,117,118 DMBS and also original builds 116/7/8/25 by deleting the gangway.

 

Figure 185: This is a Class 116 original TC or TS centre trailer (same body).

 

Figure 186: Opposite side of figure 185 above.

 

Figure 187: Floorplan of later gangwayed Class 116 TC

 

Figure 188: Floorplan of original Class 116 TC.

 

Figure 189: Floorplan of later gangwayed Class 116 TS.

 

Figure 190: Floorplan of original Class 116 TS.

 

Figure 191: This is an original Class 116 or 125 DMS, also suits original 117 and 118 by adding roofbox.

 

Figure 192: This is a later gangwayed Class 117 or 118 DMS, also suits later 116 by removing roofbox.

 

Figure 193: Floorplan for later gangwayed  116/117/118 DMS.

 

Figure 194: Floorplan for rebuilt Class 125 DMS allowing through movement in case of fire.

 

Figure 195: Floorplan for original Class 116 or 125 (95 seat). Original 117/118 were 91 seat.

 

Figure 196: Original Class 117 or 118 TCL.

 

Figure 197: Later gangwayed 117 or 118 TCL.

 

Figure 198: Floorplan of later gangwayed 117 or 118 TCL.

 

Figure 199: Floorplan of original 117 or 118 TCL.

 

Figure 200: Floorplan of Class 115 TCL.

 

Figure 201: Class 122.

 

Figure 202: Class 121.

 

Figure 203: Floorplan of Classes 121 and 122.

 

Figure 204: One of the Class 131 parcels conversions from Class 122 (55013?)

 

Figure 205: Opposite side of figure 204.

 

Figure 206: Floorplan of Class 131 (other conversions the door positions vary)

 

Figure 207: Class 122 DTS

 

Figure 208: Class 121 DTS.

 

Figure 209: Floorplan of Classes 121 and 122 DTS.

 

Figure 210: Class 115 and 127 TS.

 

Figure 211: Opposite side of figure 210.

 

Figure 212: Floorplan of Class 115 and 127 TS.

 

Figure 213: Class 115 or 127 DMBS.

 

Figure 214: Opposite side of figure 213.

 

Figure 215: Floorplan of Class 115 and 127 DMBS.

 

Figure 216: Class 125 TS.

 

Figure 217: Opposite side of figure 216.

 

Figure 218: Floorplan of Class 125 TS.

 

Figure 219: Class 127 TSL.

 

Figure 220: Opposite side of figure 219.

 

Figure 221: Floorplan of Class 127 TSL.

 

                                              Hope that helps, all comments or corrections are very welcome.

                                                                                   Cheers, Brian.

[Signaller69]

Hi Brian,

can't help with the book as its one on my hit list to pick up, but on the subject of floorpans/underfloor arrangements, does it show the various Swindon 126 unit layouts (the Scottish ones in particular)?

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian,

can't help with the book as its one on my hit list to pick up, but on the subject of floorpans/underfloor arrangements, does it show the various Swindon 126 unit layouts (the Scottish ones in particular)?

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

Hi Martyn,

      Yes, the Cheona book shows the main Class 126 underframe variations, with the correct positions for engines, etc. It also shows the body variations of the 7xxxx and the later 5xxxx series, but beware that some of the small windows should be different widths, as detailed some pages back on this thread. Elsewhere in the book, some liberties have been taken with engines depicted, for example Rolls-Royce and Albion powered units are shown with regular 150hp engines.   BK