Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Donw]

Penmaenpool on the Mawddach was a working quay sailing barges brought coal and lime from Barmouth taking wollen goods, minerals and timber back. A brig was built and launched there, a year later the railway arrived. Irronically the materials for the railway came up the river. Trade from the port declined after that. The same was true of many places. The advantage of being close to a navigeable river was superseeded by being close to a railway line.

 

I can remember when greengrocers were full of fruit and veg in small crates although some such as potatoes carrots and onions were in sacks. My grandfather worked for a corn merchant there stuff was in sacks. Not the little baby ones of today the biggest were 2cwt.

So stuff was moved in sacks, crates, barrels etc. In 1895 quite a lot would be in sheeted opens. There were problems with lime in a sheeted wagon small holes in the sheet could allow water to seep through lime and water generate heat fires were not unknown. (an interesting train with a lime wagons on fire!). Empty wagons could hold folded sheets being returned

 

Don

[Penlan]

Not sure where you are based ChrisN, but there's plenty of directories etc., held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth.
I did a lot of research and catalogue'ing work there in the 1970's. 

[Penlan]

.....And I DON'T think you can justify a bullion van! I'd like to know how Penlan wrote his into the script for Penlan.

Ah, yes, well......

I had been at Kew Records Office back in the long time past and had access to the early LNWR Coach Diagram book,

I sketched out the details of both the 25' and 22' 6" Bullion Vans, this was long before digital and/or mobile cameras, before mass photo copiers etc.,, and I seem to recall no cameras allowed at all. No pens, only pencil.

... and when Danny (D&S) let me have some spare 25' chassis etches, it was a natural progression.

At the same time in Kew, I was going through all the Neath & Brecon Records for Tudor Watkins.

Accident Reports, I was able to do those at Birmingham Archives Library, as I lived in Malvern at the time.......

.. and scripts, think ad-lib, freeform theatre, or "... and I want something nobody else has...".

Edited May 25, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

I don't know if there would have been any, but what about a Pigeon Special, NPCS.  Presumably on the Welsh coast with a flight over the mountains, you would have stock from 'up north.   It's not all 2 plank wagons.
I have a photo somewhere* of one at Weymouth, there's LNWR, GC, North Staffs and I think GWR (at least) in the train.
The Pigeons are being unloaded, I assume for release, rather than moving onto a boat bound for France.
I also have the complete GWR bound copy of the traffic at every GWR Station (based on post-grouping) up to I think 1936, I'm sure it starts somewhere around 1900, BUT that book was left to be rebound, the binders went bankrupt and the book is now 'somewhere'... I'm still trying to track it down.  
There's a previous thread on Pigeons >>>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/8027-pigeon-traffic/
Looks like I had better make an effort to find the photo's....

.

* Somewhere?  About 18 months ago I lost all my files on my PC, the copies I had where removed from the house by an unknown A.N.Other.  I wonder what they thought the CD's contained, Music?
I have a few thousand photo's in boxes, glass negs., etc., and books on shelves, but for quick replies on here, sorry not going to spend a lot of time looking....

Edited May 25, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

I had the half plate glass negs for these years ago.....  I think one of these has been used in a publication.

It looks as if I was wrong about the Pigeons not being loaded onto a boat.

The top picture is mainly LNWR Dia. 419 Parcel Vans (Also WCJS Dia. 103 Fish Vans), which at one time were available as an etched kit by MicroRail, don't know who does them now.  

The Boat to the left is the Melmore.  Edit :- This photo appeared in Railway World, June 1961.

The second photo is much more interesting as there's LNWR, GCR, North Staffs and Midland stock in there, somewhere, and I seem to recall, long ago, somebody identified a GWR Van as well.

.

Now obviously for 1895, you will have to back date to Victorian NPCS's, but the LNWR Dia. 419's were built in 1890 (5), 1891 (15) and 1895 (9), Some were converted to Fish Vans in 1903 - a zinc floor added etc.,

How big did you say your fiddle yard was?  
This is one advantage of having a fiddle yard with the facility to have a 'cassette' road as well,

.... so 'rare' trains can be stored off-site.   I have done this with one of my own fiddle yard tracks now.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

Beautiful photos.  They don't look like Weymouth. Southampton? Or somewhere out west?

 

One of the only two clear photos of a Rhymney Railway wagon was taken on the LNWR. It shares the siding with Midland and Caledonian opens.

 

Jonathan

[Penlan]

Photo 2 is Custom House Quay, Weymouth, in fact this is one of my favourite photos.
Photo 1, I will check again, I see it's the 'Marine' - 'Channel Islands Hotel' in the background.

 

Edit and here's the Channel Islands Hotel, Weymouth, recently...

 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

propellors - yes, water is quite thick stuff....  we have a boat,  it is astonishing that the full power output of a 306 hp truck engine is absorbed by something only a little larger than a desk fan.

 

And in my yoof, I worked in Cammell Lairds - I remember the first time they started the engines on the ship I was working on - this was a 17500 hp, 5 cylinder engine, best part of four decks high, cylinders about 750mm x 2m stroke, crankshaft that weighed over 90 tons.  The prop on that was about 5 or 6 metres diameter, the ship was a StaT55, of 55,000t capacity. 

 

best

Simon

 

Simon,

That is very interesting about the size of the propeller on your boat.  It gives me something to work to although as I type I am wondering what type of boats there would have been, probably steam powered.

[ChrisN]

I don;'t know about Barmouth but west of Machynlleth the railway killed the boat building business - partly but I think not only because the railway cut off the wharves from the village. There is quite a bit in Rick Green's volume 1 on the coast lines, including information on the sizes of boats being built. I suspect the sizes were similar further north.

 

I suspect butter vans only served major centres, though possibly there might have been traffic from Traeth Mawr to Wolverhampton or somewhere similar in a LNWR van. There would have been plenty of locally produced butter for local consumption.

 

And I DON'T think you can justify a bullion van! I'd like to know how Penlan wrote his into the script for Penlan.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I do have Vol 1 but have not read it yet.  I assume if nothing else there would have been fishing boats to build.  I will have to see what I can find out about boat building in Barmouth.  It is a real shame Vol 3 never got published.  I assume Rick Green did not have a son called Christopher to publish it posthumously.  ( It seems to work like that as in Christopher Awdrey and Christopher Tolkein.)  It would have been a fitting tribute to him to have his worked published.

 

When I think of butter production I think of the larger diary herds in places like Hertfordshire but of course there would have been smaller herds producing for local needs although I have to admit I do not remember many cows on my visits to Wales.  I know about Welsh sheep so now I will have to investigate Welsh Cows.

[ChrisN]

Penmaenpool on the Mawddach was a working quay sailing barges brought coal and lime from Barmouth taking wollen goods, minerals and timber back. A brig was built and launched there, a year later the railway arrived. Irronically the materials for the railway came up the river. Trade from the port declined after that. The same was true of many places. The advantage of being close to a navigeable river was superseeded by being close to a railway line.

 

I can remember when greengrocers were full of fruit and veg in small crates although some such as potatoes carrots and onions were in sacks. My grandfather worked for a corn merchant there stuff was in sacks. Not the little baby ones of today the biggest were 2cwt.

So stuff was moved in sacks, crates, barrels etc. In 1895 quite a lot would be in sheeted opens. There were problems with lime in a sheeted wagon small holes in the sheet could allow water to seep through lime and water generate heat fires were not unknown. (an interesting train with a lime wagons on fire!). Empty wagons could hold folded sheets being returned

 

Don

 

Don,

Funny now that you mention it I remember fruit and veg in crates.  Quite open to let it breathe.

 

It will be sheeted wagons coming in, empty wagons with sheets going out, and crates and things in the goods shed, or on carts.

[ChrisN]

Not sure where you are based ChrisN, but there's plenty of directories etc., held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth.

I did a lot of research and catalogue'ing work there in the 1970's. 

 

Home counties I am afraid, a long way from Aberystwyth and I am not sure I can think of a good reason to take my wife there.  The trouble being once I start I may never come out.

 

I don't know if there would have been any, but what about a Pigeon Special, NPCS.  Presumably on the Welsh coast with a flight over the mountains, you would have stock from 'up north.   It's not all 2 plank wagons.

I have a photo somewhere* of one at Weymouth, there's LNWR, GC, North Staffs and I think GWR (at least) in the train.

The Pigeons are being unloaded, I assume for release, rather than moving onto a boat bound for France.

I also have the complete GWR bound copy of the traffic at every GWR Station (based on post-grouping) up to I think 1936, I'm sure it starts somewhere around 1900, BUT that book was left to be rebound, the binders went bankrupt and the book is now 'somewhere'... I'm still trying to track it down.  

There's a previous thread on Pigeons >>>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/8027-pigeon-traffic/

Looks like I had better make an effort to find the photo's....

.

* Somewhere?  About 18 months ago I lost all my files on my PC, the copies I had where removed from the house by an unknown A.N.Other.  I wonder what they thought the CD's contained, Music?

I have a few thousand photo's in boxes, glass negs., etc., and books on shelves, but for quick replies on here, sorry not going to spend a lot of time looking....

 

Pigeon Vans, never thought of those.  Need a good long flight so it would be NER, or GNR?

[Simond]

 

When I think of butter production I think of the larger diary herds in places like Hertfordshire but of course there would have been smaller herds producing for local needs although I have to admit I do not remember many cows on my visits to Wales.  I know about Welsh sheep so now I will have to investigate Welsh Cows.

Definitely dairy in N Wales, Chwilog springs to mind. The cooperative started in 1938, but there was clearly trade before that. http://www.sccwales.co.uk/en/about-us/company-history/

 

Best

Simon

[lanchester]

Just reverting to beer, especially if you have tourists in the area, you might have a demand for bottled Bass, which was sold all over the country. I believe this would come from Burton in the barrel, and be bottled fairly locally (so there could also be an occassional traffic in bottles?)

[Simond]

Milk in the morning, beer in the evening...

 

(Bass is lovely, but I imagine it ain't great on Corn Flakes)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Simond

[ChrisN]

Just reverting to beer, especially if you have tourists in the area, you might have a demand for bottled Bass, which was sold all over the country. I believe this would come from Burton in the barrel, and be bottled fairly locally (so there could also be an occassional traffic in bottles?)

 

Thank you, yes that would be useful.  Labelled barrels and crates.

[ChrisN]

Definitely dairy in N Wales, Chwilog springs to mind. The cooperative started in 1938, but there was clearly trade before that. http://www.sccwales.co.uk/en/about-us/company-history/

 

Best

Simon

 

 

Milk in the morning, beer in the evening...

 

(Bass is lovely, but I imagine it ain't great on Corn Flakes)

 

Simon,

I shall look into the Welsh diary industry.  I am not particularly a fan of Bass, either on cornflakes or not. 

[mike morley]

The one-time CAMRA member in me is convinced that back in the Victorian era (and beyond) beer production was fairly localised and that far more would have been brewed in the vicinity than was imported from elsewhere.  I think you'd do better staying with researching the inward traffic of the raw materials required for brewing than with importing of the finished product.

[ChrisN]

The one-time CAMRA member in me is convinced that back in the Victorian era (and beyond) beer production was fairly localised and that far more would have been brewed in the vicinity than was imported from elsewhere.  I think you'd do better staying with researching the inward traffic of the raw materials required for brewing than with importing of the finished product.

 

Mike,

Jonathan's link seemed to show that there were large central breweries even then, although there were a large number of pubs that were 'Free Houses'.  What surprised me was that there were no pubs tied to local breweries.  However, never fear there is a small brewery in Traeh Mawr,even if it has to compete with imported stuff.

 

The GE van will definitely be bringing malt.  Hops?  Is Kent the only place that grows them?  Do you buy it all in one go and store it or buy it as you need it?  LCDR or SER?  More research.

[Anotheran]

According to the British Hop Association the West Midlands, including Herefordshire and Gloucestershire grow about half of all UK hops today having been introduced to the area before 1636. At it's peak in 1894 Herefordshire boasted over 10,000 acres of hops. So I think you can use GWR for your hop deliveries if you want!

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited May 27, 2015 by Anotheran

[ChrisN]

According to the British Hop Association the West Midlands, including Herefordshire and Gloucestershire grow about half of all UK hops today having been introduced to the area before 1636. At it's peak in 1894 Herefordshire boasted over 10,000 acres of hops. So I think you can use GWR for your hop deliveries if you want!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

This is very interesting.  I did not look last night as I am too busy playing with the Barmouth census.  Hereford: was there not another little railway down there?  If not then GWR deliveries, although I am told that you can get a good price in Kent if you shop around. 

[Donw]

Just reverting to beer, especially if you have tourists in the area, you might have a demand for bottled Bass, which was sold all over the country. I believe this would come from Burton in the barrel, and be bottled fairly locally (so there could also be an occassional traffic in bottles?)

 

Bottle Beer used to be packed into small wooden crate about a dozen or two per crate. Handholds in the ends. They would be sold to pubs by the crate. So I imagine they would be stacked in a wagon for dispatch by rail for distant places.

 

Don

[Donw]

According to the British Hop Association the West Midlands, including Herefordshire and Gloucestershire grow about half of all UK hops today having been introduced to the area before 1636. At it's peak in 1894 Herefordshire boasted over 10,000 acres of hops. So I think you can use GWR for your hop deliveries if you want!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Think worcestershire as well there were quite a few hops farms between the Malverns and Bromyard  and I would expect more in the vale of Evesham etc. It is possible some went via the Midland to three cocks and then up the wye Valley on the Cambrian.

Don

[ChrisN]

Bottle Beer used to be packed into small wooden crate about a dozen or two per crate. Handholds in the ends. They would be sold to pubs by the crate. So I imagine they would be stacked in a wagon for dispatch by rail for distant places.

 

Don

 

 

Think worcestershire as well there were quite a few hops farms between the Malverns and Bromyard  and I would expect more in the vale of Evesham etc. It is possible some went via the Midland to three cocks and then up the wye Valley on the Cambrian.

Don

 

Don,

Midland Railway vans I assume?  I doubt they would have used open wagons for bottles and hops, well hops anyway.

[Donw]

Don,

Midland Railway vans I assume?  I doubt they would have used open wagons for bottles and hops, well hops anyway.

 

Chris the hops were dried and placed into large sacks known as pockets about 6ftx 2ft. These were piled high on carts and delivered direct or taken to a railway station. pre 1900 they may well have been piled into open wagons and sheeted. Not sure about the bottled beer

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Today I had planned to lay track, but it has been a frustrating day.  It seems to have disappeared when I all day to model.  First thing, I did go to Halfords and Maplins so I have paint and wire.  I was going to buy switches but decided to wait and think more about the wiring as a whole.

 

I spent a while looking at the bottom of the curved points to see where I should cut the ties to solder.  The straight points have the rails already bared for soldering.  Cooked dinner and then went back and had a log think about do I want/need point motors.  I think I will but then realised that if I were to fit motors I would need to have the cut the holes in the boards before I glue the track down. 

 

Having decided that I then went on to cut from my two rolls of wire, a red one and a black one, 4" lengths to make droppers.  Having cut these and begun to strip the ends in preparation for tinning my wife phoned to say she was on the way home, so I went to meet her.

 

Later I started to cut up the scrap brass that I got so that I could practise soldering and decided that perhas I should have a soldering mat before I did and may be one of those nifty things that holds things in place for you.

 

I post this for two reasons, 1) so you know that I am trying, and 2) if you seem to spend your modelling time getting nowhere fast and banging your head against a brick wall, you are not alone.